Orphans at our door

[Balta1701]

I don't think you are looking at it the right way. You are assuming that all of the immigrants will come here idealistic and righteous and be productive members of society. They aren't criminals because they are immigrants. However, because they are poor and will live in high crime areas, they will place more of a burden on the system and thus will contribute to the problem. They will be some that become desparate enough to turn to crime but hopefully not many. But I think you can agree that if you innundate the already high crime rate areas with even more poor people, crime will increase.

 

You cannot equate the turn of the century US with the growing economy with the US of today. The economic condition isn't the same unrestricted poor workers will add to great of a burden on the government without much benefit, as someone said because they will not be paying taxes. Migrant workers are needed for the economy but to restrcit the number who stay here permanaetly would be the best of both worlds.

It does need to be stressed that this intuition is completely the opposite of what we currently see in data. For whatever immigrant population you want to analyze (except for under the statement that all undocumented immigrants are criminals), the actual crime and incarceration rates among the immigrant population are less than those of native-born citizens by a lot. This is not accounted for by the number of them deported based on additional work. To drop some links in, 1, 2, 3, 4.

 

(Interestingly, the "once they're here they become more like native-born people in crime rates" cited in #2 there could very well be another version of the lead exposure problem).

 

[Texsox]

Anyone earning less than $24,000 and files a return has a negative tax rate. After credits and deductions, they will not pay federal income tax, and probably receive a refund check beyond what they actually paid in taxes.

 

Think about that for a moment. Now if the person does not file, for example if they are here illegally and using a fraudulent social security number, they will not be receiving a refund. The federal income tax that the employer paid and the contribution from the worker will stay in the treasury. Now, if that worker files a return, that money leaves the treasury as a refund to the individual.

 

For more information look up effective federal income tax rates.

 

[Balta1701]

Anyone earning less than $24,000 and files a return has a negative tax rate. After credits and deductions, they will not pay federal income tax, and probably receive a refund check beyond what they actually paid in taxes.

 

Think about that for a moment. Now if the person does not file, for example if they are here illegally and using a fraudulent social security number, they will not be receiving a refund. The federal income tax that the employer paid and the contribution from the worker will stay in the treasury. Now, if that worker files a return, that money leaves the treasury as a refund to the individual.

 

For more information look up effective federal income tax rates.

And as always, the $2000 that they pay to the government as payroll tax (and the additional portion of the payroll tax paid by their employer) doesn't count.

[EvilMonkey]

Anyone earning less than $24,000 and files a return has a negative tax rate. After credits and deductions, they will not pay federal income tax, and probably receive a refund check beyond what they actually paid in taxes.

 

Think about that for a moment. Now if the person does not file, for example if they are here illegally and using a fraudulent social security number, they will not be receiving a refund. The federal income tax that the employer paid and the contribution from the worker will stay in the treasury. Now, if that worker files a return, that money leaves the treasury as a refund to the individual.

 

For more information look up effective federal income tax rates.

Or the person whose number they are using gets screwed out of a refund because the $20k the illegal made pushed the citizen over the threshold for getting a refund. Or the IRS comes calling wanting to know why they didn't report that extra $20k in income on their taxes.

[StrangeSox]

Or the person whose number they are using gets screwed out of a refund because the $20k the illegal made pushed the citizen over the threshold for getting a refund. Or the IRS comes calling wanting to know why they didn't report that extra $20k in income on their taxes.

I am skeptical that this actually happens. There would be two W-2's and it would be pretty obvious what was going on right away.

[Jenksismyhero]

Here you go, the new policy is inviting illegals to come here:

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/06/25/4199...stay-drive.html

[StrangeSox]

And as always, the $2000 that they pay to the government as payroll tax (and the additional portion of the payroll tax paid by their employer) doesn't count.

tex did specify "federal income tax"

[Balta1701]

tex did specify "federal income tax"

I know and it drives me nuts. "If we don't count the 125% of the taxes you actually pay because it has the wrong name we can make it sound like you're not paying taxes!"

[StrangeSox]

Eh, I already made that point earlier in the thread and don't think that was the argument Tex was making at all.

[Balta1701]

Eh, I already made that point earlier in the thread and don't think that was the argument Tex was making at all.

I know, but when you count the payroll tax you would fundamentally rewrite that post.

 

Even if an immigrant is paying their share of the payroll tax, if they're undocumented, the employer is not paying the hidden half so the employer is making out like a bandit, and even a low income employee will contribute to the government through the payroll tax which funds a solid chunk of the government these days anyway.

[southsider2k5]

I know and it drives me nuts. "If we don't count the 125% of the taxes you actually pay because it has the wrong name we can make it sound like you're not paying taxes!"

 

Kind of like talking about companies paying no corporate taxes?

[Balta1701]

Kind of like talking about companies paying no corporate taxes?

Ah yes, because after all, when I purchase something and pay the sales tax on it, that sales tax is really not being paid by me.

[southsider2k5]

Ah yes, because after all, when I purchase something and pay the sales tax on it, that sales tax is really not being paid by me.

 

Payroll tax? Unemployment tax? Social security tax? Property Tax? I'm sure those are all made up as well.

[Balta1701]

Payroll tax? Unemployment tax? Social security tax? Property Tax? I'm sure those are all made up as well.

I'll consider giving you the unemployment tax, but Payroll and Social Security? Come on, that's a tax paid per employee. If the company fires its employee that removes those taxes they would have paid on that worker. That's an income tax by another name.

[StrangeSox]

I know, but when you count the payroll tax you would fundamentally rewrite that post.

 

Even if an immigrant is paying their share of the payroll tax, if they're undocumented, the employer is not paying the hidden half so the employer is making out like a bandit, and even a low income employee will contribute to the government through the payroll tax which funds a solid chunk of the government these days anyway.

How would that work? If the undocumented worker isn't working for cash under the table but is legitimately on the payroll and paying payroll taxes, the employer is going to have that on their books and will need to pay the payroll taxes as well. If they are being paid cash and not filing a W-2, then nobody is paying payroll taxes. I think it either has to be both pay or neither pay.

 

Anyway, Tex's point was that if someone is working under a fraudulent SSN or tax ID number, it's actually a net benefit to the government revenue stream. That low-income worker would normally file their taxes and get EITC, probably getting most or all of their income taxes back. If they're undocumented, they probably aren't going to be filing a tax return, so that money never gets refunded.

[StrangeSox]

I'll consider giving you the unemployment tax, but Payroll and Social Security? Come on, that's a tax paid per employee. If the company fires its employee that removes those taxes they would have paid on that worker. That's an income tax by another name.

 

Is the tax incidence rate really 100% though? Don't fall for the old argument that "all taxes/regulatory burdens/expenses on a business are passed on to the consumer/employee" because in most cases, it's not possible to pass it on 100%.

[Balta1701]

How would that work? If the undocumented worker isn't working for cash under the table but is legitimately on the payroll and paying payroll taxes, the employer is going to have that on their books and will need to pay the payroll taxes as well. If they are being paid cash and not filing a W-2, then nobody is paying payroll taxes. I think it either has to be both pay or neither pay.

 

Anyway, Tex's point was that if someone is working under a fraudulent SSN or tax ID number, it's actually a net benefit to the government revenue stream. That low-income worker would normally file their taxes and get EITC, probably getting most or all of their income taxes back. If they're undocumented, they probably aren't going to be filing a tax return, so that money never gets refunded.

But the balance changes a whole lot when you actually count the payroll tax. His number $24k is a person who, if being paid as a normal worker and paying payroll taxes, would be paying a pretty solid amount to the federal government even after counting the EITC because of the payroll tax hit.

 

Serious Q: how exactly would an employer who has an undocumented immigrant working for them be paying the payroll tax for them? That seems like a pretty dead giveaway to the government and it seems like probably a big part of the motivation for places like walmart to hire undocumented workers.

[StrangeSox]

But the balance changes a whole lot when you actually count the payroll tax. His number $24k is a person who, if being paid as a normal worker and paying payroll taxes, would be paying a pretty solid amount to the federal government even after counting the EITC because of the payroll tax hit.

 

Yes, they would. I don't think Tex would dispute that, but it doesn't directly relate to the point he was making. Tex was, if anything, countering the idea that undocumented immigrants pay no taxes and are a net drain. At least that's how I read it.

 

Serious Q: how exactly would an employer who has an undocumented immigrant working for them be paying the payroll tax for them? That seems like a pretty dead giveaway to the government and it seems like probably a big part of the motivation for places like walmart to hire undocumented workers.

 

A question in response: how would an off-the-book undocumented worker be paying payroll taxes in the first place? My brother does cash side jobs for a buddy of his. It's all off-payroll, so his employer doesn't pay any payroll taxes and neither does he (nor does he report that as taxable income, either).

 

If Walmart is hiring undocumented workers to their regular payroll and issuing a W-2 (this would require a fake/fraudulent SSN or tax ID for the undocumented worker), how can Walmart avoid paying their share of the payroll taxes associated with that W-2? On the other hand, if it's non-payroll cash payments to undocumented workers, why on earth would the workers be voluntarily sending in payroll taxes? How would they even be doing that?

[Balta1701]

Yes, they would. I don't think Tex would dispute that, but it doesn't directly relate to the point he was making. Tex was, if anything, countering the idea that undocumented immigrants pay no taxes and are a net drain. At least that's how I read it.

 

 

 

A question in response: how would an off-the-book undocumented worker be paying payroll taxes in the first place? My brother does cash side jobs for a buddy of his. It's all off-payroll, so his employer doesn't pay any payroll taxes and neither does he (nor does he report that as taxable income, either).

 

If Walmart is hiring undocumented workers to their regular payroll and issuing a W-2 (this would require a fake/fraudulent SSN or tax ID for the undocumented worker), how can Walmart avoid paying their share of the payroll taxes associated with that W-2? On the other hand, if it's non-payroll cash payments to undocumented workers, why on earth would the workers be voluntarily sending in payroll taxes? How would they even be doing that?

If a worker is voluntarily sending in "Federal income taxes" wouldn't it basically be the payroll tax that they're sending in as that's a much larger fraction of their total tax paid?

 

When walmart was caught systematically employing undocumented workers a few years ago I guess the question is whether they were filing W-2s. Since it was so widespread for them I would somehow doubt that they were, but if we switch industries and go to the agriculture or textile or home working industries that employ a lot of undocumented workers, those are probably paid with cash/checks and kept completely off the books. An employee there could be filing their own taxes but I would guess very few of those workers, probably numbering in the millions, are actually paying the full tax rate, and I'd be really surprised if those employers were. That's money that is being taken out of the payroll tax even at low income levels because that tax is so onerous at low income levels.

[StrangeSox]

If a worker is voluntarily sending in "Federal income taxes" wouldn't it basically be the payroll tax that they're sending in as that's a much larger fraction of their total tax paid?

The idea is that someone is undocumented but working with a fake/fraudulent SSN. As far as the employer is concerned, they're like any other documented employee. They're put into payroll, they're counted just like everyone else and both sides pay payroll taxes. If the guy sitting at the desk across from me is actually here on an expired visa or working under a legitimate-but-someone-else's SSN, we're both getting the same payroll deductions every paycheck and our employer is paying the same payroll taxes. It's just that, come next April, he's probably not going to be filing his tax return because he doesn't have a legit tax ID and it'd just draw attention to himself.

 

 

When walmart was caught systematically employing undocumented workers a few years ago I guess the question is whether they were filing W-2s. Since it was so widespread for them I would somehow doubt that they were, but if we switch industries and go to the agriculture or textile or home working industries that employ a lot of undocumented workers, those are probably paid with cash/checks and kept completely off the books. An employee there could be filing their own taxes but I would guess very few of those workers, probably numbering in the millions, are actually paying the full tax rate, and I'd be really surprised if those employers were. That's money that is being taken out of the payroll tax even at low income levels because that tax is so onerous at low income levels.

 

If they're being paid off the books, nobody is paying any taxes on it period. It's straight cash, and the company that's paying people under the table isn't going to be making payroll tax deductions from their cash payments. How would they even report and pay those for those not-on-the-books employees without also having to pay their share of the same taxes? And why would an undocumented person working off the books file a tax return?

 

Again, I'll go back to my brother who hasn't reported some of his income for a couple of years now. He works strictly for cash. He's not paying any income or payroll taxes. He doesn't file a tax return because there's no W-2. His employer isn't deducting anything from his "$100 to go do this" rate. I'm not sure how that'd be managed on the business expenses side of things as a deductible expense, but nobody's paying income or payroll taxes on that money.

[EvilMonkey]

I'll consider giving you the unemployment tax, but Payroll and Social Security? Come on, that's a tax paid per employee. If the company fires its employee that removes those taxes they would have paid on that worker. That's an income tax by another name.

Balta, you are only half right. There are deductions from the employee paychecks for those two items but as an employer, you pay an additional amount into the SS deposits you have to make each month/quarter. Whatever amount the employee contributes, so does the employer, on TOP of what the employee pays. And yet the system is still broke. Unemployment is generally called unemployment insurance, and you pay into it regardless of if you have ever laid anyone off or not. I paid into it for 17 years as a business owner and only had one employee in all those years use it. and then they fought me when I tried to claim it for myself after I closed my shop.

[Balta1701]

Balta, you are only half right. There are deductions from the employee paychecks for those two items but as an employer, you pay an additional amount into the SS deposits you have to make each month/quarter. Whatever amount the employee contributes, so does the employer, on TOP of what the employee pays. And yet the system is still broke. Unemployment is generally called unemployment insurance, and you pay into it regardless of if you have ever laid anyone off or not. I paid into it for 17 years as a business owner and only had one employee in all those years use it. and then they fought me when I tried to claim it for myself after I closed my shop.

yes, but for all intents and purposes that is part of the payroll tax on the employee that is just effectively hidden from the employee because that's the way we do our silly bookkeeping.

[StrangeSox]

yes, but for all intents and purposes that is part of the payroll tax on the employee that is just effectively hidden from the employee because that's the way we do our silly bookkeeping.

 

But again, the employee is either on the books and getting a paycheck with payroll tax deductions, or they're being paid cash off the books. I can't think of a scenario where an employer would be paying an undocumented worker through a formal payroll system that collects and then pays payroll taxes out of their paychecks but somehow avoids the payroll taxes owed on those wages by the company and nobody at the IRS notices. I could be wrong, but that seems like instant, obvious red flags to me.

[Texsox]

But the balance changes a whole lot when you actually count the payroll tax. His number $24k is a person who, if being paid as a normal worker and paying payroll taxes, would be paying a pretty solid amount to the federal government even after counting the EITC because of the payroll tax hit.

 

Serious Q: how exactly would an employer who has an undocumented immigrant working for them be paying the payroll tax for them? That seems like a pretty dead giveaway to the government and it seems like probably a big part of the motivation for places like walmart to hire undocumented workers.

 

As I've read the numbers the negative income tax rate includes the employer contribution. Basically the employee winds up with what the employer sent in.

 

Most of who we call undocumented use fraudulent social security numbers. Most of the illegal workers are not working for cash. Which by the way happens a lot for retired people trying to circumvent social security and other pension rules. When someone applies for a job and has the necessary paperwork, it is hard to find fault in the human resource department. The worker avoids filing a return because two returns on the same account sends up flags and is more traceable. I am told there are even people who will "lend" their social security number to someone and file the taxes as if they worked the job. They add social security wages and quarters to their retirement benefits, and pick up the refund.

 

Our immigration system is set up to hire $75,000 workers, not minimum wage workers. We don't mind when someone comes here and takes a high paying job but they damn well better hire an American to be their gardener or nanny.

[Texsox]

Since it's acknowleged they will be among the poor as they will work for low wages, these will not amount to much. most will not own property so there will not much property tax.

 

I should amend the "will not pay taxes" to they will pay very little in taxes.

 

Again, I'm not against the idea of immigrant workers. I think they are necessary. I just think the open borders and unrestricted policy would work.

 

Who ever works that job fits that description of not paying taxes. Most Americans who we've invested $$$$ in their education, do not want nor do they need to, work those jobs. If people wish to stop this immigration issue, stop the violence in South America (some of which we started), and have your children work these jobs.