Orphans at our door

[Balta1701]

Yuck it up all you want, it's the truth.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/us-releases-immigran...--politics.html

 

They're allowing entire families in, "processing" them, and then setting them free with the instruction to show up at an immigration court later on. As if they'll follow the rules.

 

This is a joke of a "policy." I'm not opposed to some compromise on a lot of illegals, but simply ignoring the problem is not a solution.

And when one house of Congress has passed a very large policy overhaul that the other house of Congress refuses to even take up a vote on, you should ask which political party that word applies to.

[Jenksismyhero]

And when one house of Congress has passed a very large policy overhaul that the other house of Congress refuses to even take up a vote on, you should ask which political party that word applies to.

 

The one that was essentially blanket amnesty? No thanks.

[Jenksismyhero]

Remind me again of why Eric cantor lost his primary. I seem to recall that he was attacked from the right for supporting "amnesty," which is what the right calls any immigration policy that isn't building a giant wall and deporting millions of people.

 

There are morons on the right on this issue, that's true, but in one fell swoop giving every illegal legal status for a $500 fine isn't a good policy either.

[Balta1701]

The one that was essentially blanket amnesty? No thanks.

If registration, criminal background check, $1000 penalty, 6 years of working followed by a renewal, 4 additional years of working prior to being able to apply for permanent resident status, 3 years as a permanent resident (13 years of waiting total), and a giant additional dump of money onto border security = blanket amnesty, then anything that allows an immigrant to be alive would be considered blanket amnesty by you.

[Jenksismyhero]

If registration, criminal background check, $1000 penalty, 6 years of working followed by a renewal, 4 additional years of working prior to being able to apply for permanent resident status, 3 years as a permanent resident (13 years of waiting total), and a giant additional dump of money onto border security = blanket amnesty, then anything that allows an immigrant to be alive would be considered blanket amnesty by you.

 

Not enough. I want back taxes owed and not paid.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Not enough. I want back taxes owed and not paid.

Great. And this can possibly be done how? By definition they're "unregistered". How do you calculate taxes if you don't have confirmable taxable income?

 

They would, btw, be paying taxes from the moment they became registered in addition to the $1000 fine. Which would be part of the point.

[southsider2k5]

Not enough. I want back taxes owed and not paid.

 

No you don't. Most are going to be working jobs where they wouldn't pay any taxes anyway. They'd get that money back, and a lot more, under our current tax code. And that is long before we get into social services provided.

[Jenksismyhero]

Great. And this can possibly be done how? By definition they're "unregistered". How do you calculate taxes if you don't have confirmable taxable income?

 

They would, btw, be paying taxes from the moment they became registered in addition to the $1000 fine. Which would be part of the point.

 

Then make it a penalty per year they've been here. A $1,000 fine is ignoring criminal behavior.

[Balta1701]

Then make it a penalty per year they've been here. A $1,000 fine is ignoring criminal behavior.

Great. Please tell me how to document that?

[Jenksismyhero]

No you don't. Most are going to be working jobs where they wouldn't pay any taxes anyway. They'd get that money back, and a lot more, under our current tax code. And that is long before we get into social services provided.

 

Fine, then see above. Make it a yearly penalty. You should not be able to sneak into this country, abuse its services and then be provided temporary status (no matter how long it takes) without SOME kind of penalty.

[Jenksismyhero]

Great. Please tell me how to document that?

 

I'm sure in some situations it's going to be difficult, but you're going to be before a judge on this stuff, answering questions under oath. When was a drivers license issued, when did you get an SS card, where have you lived in the US, you have a child with US citizenship who is 22, etc.

 

I mean this applies to people who were here before 2011, right. How are they going to prove that?

[Balta1701]

I'm sure in some situations it's going to be difficult, but you're going to be before a judge on this stuff, answering questions under oath. When was a drivers license issued, when did you get an SS card, where have you lived in the US, you have a child with US citizenship who is 22, etc.

 

I mean this applies to people who were here before 2011, right. How are they going to prove that?

And states have been happy and willing to issue drivers licenses and social security cards to undocumented immigrants, right?

 

Hell, California hasn't even done that yet.

 

Hence, flat fine that can reasonably be paid by everyone. Not so huge that people will refuse to pay it in favor of remaining undocumented. You could convince me that $2000 would work better, but higher than that and people are going to just stay undocumented because they can't come up with it from working in the fields. And then they face a 13 year immigration system gauntlet if everything works correctly.

[Soxbadger]

Not enough. I want back taxes owed and not paid.

 

Drop in the bucket. What about forcing corps/etc to pay back taxes owed first, then lets worry about taxes on people who likely would have had to pay 0 because their income was to low.

 

I get the protectionism, just come out and say it. You are afraid that if we let other people in, you may not be able to compete.

 

That is fine, but not all of us are scurred. If someone from another country can come to to the US with nothing and take my job, I will tip my cap to them.

 

We used to invite competition, now we try and stifle it. There is no economic basis in the ideology it is just fear mongering. Eventually if we continue down the path of protectionism and counter-free market principles our economy will falter.

 

 

Simply put, I want the strongest America possible and that means allowing competition.

[Y2HH]

Drop in the bucket. What about forcing corps/etc to pay back taxes owed first, then lets worry about taxes on people who likely would have had to pay 0 because their income was to low.

 

I get the protectionism, just come out and say it. You are afraid that if we let other people in, you may not be able to compete.

 

That is fine, but not all of us are scurred. If someone from another country can come to to the US with nothing and take my job, I will tip my cap to them.

 

We used to invite competition, now we try and stifle it. There is no economic basis in the ideology it is just fear mongering. Eventually if we continue down the path of protectionism and counter-free market principles our economy will falter.

 

 

Simply put, I want the strongest America possible and that means allowing competition.

 

I'm not sure anyone is saying this ... I know I'm not. What I am saying is along the lines of what ptact is saying, feel free to come here and contribute, it makes things better for everyone. I have a few friends that did just that. They got green cards, passed the citizenship exam after YEARS and are now both American citizens...they did it the right way, which wasn't the easiest way or cheapest way, but they did it, and are now taxpaying contributors. I'd bet nobody here has an issue with this.

 

But that's not really what we're talking about, and you know it.

[Jenksismyhero]

And states have been happy and willing to issue drivers licenses and social security cards to undocumented immigrants, right?

 

Hell, California hasn't even done that yet.

 

Hence, flat fine that can reasonably be paid by everyone. Not so huge that people will refuse to pay it in favor of remaining undocumented. You could convince me that $2000 would work better, but higher than that and people are going to just stay undocumented because they can't come up with it from working in the fields. And then they face a 13 year immigration system gauntlet if everything works correctly.

 

It happened/happens, yes. Hell, I just had an illegal sue a business client of mine in federal court and he had both. And the law PROTECTS them from being outed.

 

If they can't pay it, see ya later. Should have thought twice about coming into another country illegally. Someone else above made this point - other countries are WAY more strict about their immigration policy. Why is the US always criticized for trying to control their immigration A LITTLE BIT? It makes no sense.

[Soxbadger]

Fine, then see above. Make it a yearly penalty. You should not be able to sneak into this country, abuse its services and then be provided temporary status (no matter how long it takes) without SOME kind of penalty.

 

Sure you can, if the original law is unjust, further enforcement is equally unjust.

 

/shrugs

 

Its just being vindictive.

 

http://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis...and_history.asp

 

Everyone should get the same chance that my family did to come into the US. We should not continue the terrible laws that were created in the 20's:

 

From the very beginning of the mass migration that spanned the years (roughly) 1880 to 1924, an increasingly vociferous group of politicians and nativists demanded increased restrictions on immigration. Laws and regulations such as the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Alien Contract Labor Law and the institution of a literacy test barely stemmed this flood tide of new immigrants. Actually, the death knell for Ellis Island, as a major entry point for new immigrants, began to toll in 1921. It reached a crescendo between 1921 with the passage of the Quota Laws and 1924 with the passage of the National Origins Act. These restrictions were based upon a percentage system according to the number of ethnic groups already living in the United States as per the 1890 and 1910 Census. It was an attempt to preserve the ethnic flavor of the "old immigrants", those earlier settlers primarily from Northern and Western Europe. The perception existed that the newly arriving immigrants mostly from southern and eastern Europe were somehow inferior to those who arrived earlier.

 

And so the cycle continues. Remember, we were all once the people that other people did not want in the US, and the only reason any of us had the chance to come here is because of the kindness of others in this country already. I will not forget that no matter what.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Soxbadger

[Soxbadger]

I'm not sure anyone is saying this ... I know I'm not. What I am saying is along the lines of what ptact is saying, feel free to come here and contribute, it makes things better for everyone. I have a few friends that did just that. They got green cards, passed the citizenship exam after YEARS and are now both American citizens...they did it the right way, which wasn't the easiest way or cheapest way, but they did it, and are now taxpaying contributors. I'd bet nobody here has an issue with this.

 

But that's not really what we're talking about, and you know it.

 

Your friends shouldnt have had to go through that. We shouldnt have a berserk green card system. We shouldnt restrict our country to those who can "afford" it.

 

Freedom is about giving people a chance.

[Jenksismyhero]

Sure you can, if the original law is unjust, further enforcement is equally unjust.

 

/shrugs

 

Its just being vindictive.

 

http://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis...and_history.asp

 

Everyone should get the same chance that my family did to come into the US. We should not continue the terrible laws that were created in the 20's:

 

 

 

And so the cycle continues. Remember, we were all once the people that other people did not want in the US, and the only reason any of us had the chance to come here is because of the kindness of others in this country already. I will not forget that no matter what.

 

You can't compare the two situations. The country is entirely different and operates in an entirely different way. If our attitude was, come here and don't cause trouble and fend for yourself, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But that's not 2014 America and you know it.

[Soxbadger]

You can't compare the two situations. The country is entirely different and operates in an entirely different way. If our attitude was, come here and don't cause trouble and fend for yourself, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But that's not 2014 America and you know it.

 

Change has to start somewhere. Once our immigration flow increased it should rapidly improve our economy, at that point we would be able to reassess our priorities.

 

That being said, I would have no issue with compromise in terms of immigrant benefits. It would not be that hard to either make them pay an increased tax immediately or have them pay higher taxes later to entitle them to immediate benefits. But those issues can be solved. Because once they are legal immigrants, we have their social, we have records, we can keep track and we can either approve/deny benefits. Its not offering a blank check, but its providing them an opportunity. There will be some who screw it up, but history has shown the majority will become valuable to America.

 

That is how we got there today, that is who we ware.

[EvilMonkey]

Because once they are legal immigrants, we have their social, we have records, we can keep track and we can either approve/deny benefits. Its not offering a blank check, but its providing them an opportunity. There will be some who screw it up, but history has shown the majority will become valuable to America.

You really think they would ever be denied benefits? Never happen. This current crop of non-producers is just here for Uncle Sugar and to act as an anchor to bring over their extended families. We can't find them to send the kids back, but once the kids are let in, I am sure they will somehow manage to find each other.

[southsider2k5]

Change has to start somewhere. Once our immigration flow increased it should rapidly improve our economy, at that point we would be able to reassess our priorities.

 

That being said, I would have no issue with compromise in terms of immigrant benefits. It would not be that hard to either make them pay an increased tax immediately or have them pay higher taxes later to entitle them to immediate benefits. But those issues can be solved. Because once they are legal immigrants, we have their social, we have records, we can keep track and we can either approve/deny benefits. Its not offering a blank check, but its providing them an opportunity. There will be some who screw it up, but history has shown the majority will become valuable to America.

 

That is how we got there today, that is who we ware.

 

I think you are missing out that there isn't really any excess labor for them to do, as there was historically. Also worth noting is that historically immigration could push wages down, where it has an artificial floor today, not to mention what the tax code, and benefits system looks like today.

 

A historical comp just fails today because there is very little in our modern economy that is in common with the good ol days.

 

[Soxbadger]

You really think they would ever be denied benefits? Never happen. This current crop of non-producers is just here for Uncle Sugar and to act as an anchor to bring over their extended families. We can't find them to send the kids back, but once the kids are let in, I am sure they will somehow manage to find each other.

 

This is what they said about your family when they came to the US. Its the exact same argument. Its always saddening to see those who were once the oppressed turn into the oppressor.

 

 

I think you are missing out that there isn't really any excess labor for them to do, as there was historically. Also worth noting is that historically immigration could push wages down, where it has an artificial floor today, not to mention what the tax code, and benefits system looks like today.

 

A historical comp just fails today because there is very little in our modern economy that is in common with the good ol days.

 

You may not be able to compare historically, but most economists agree that generally speaking increased immigration is good for an economy. You can read Cato or any number of think tanks which almost all come to the same conclusion (which is no different than Adam Smith), artificially controlling labor is bad and hurts the economy.

 

And there is plenty of jobs available, just many Americans dont want to work them. Which is the exact reason why we need immigrant labor to fill that niche. If there were no jobs, they wouldnt be coming here. Its really just that simple.

[EvilMonkey]

This is what they said about your family when they came to the US. Its the exact same argument. Its always saddening to see those who were once the oppressed turn into the oppressor.

 

 

 

 

You may not be able to compare historically, but most economists agree that generally speaking increased immigration is good for an economy. You can read Cato or any number of think tanks which almost all come to the same conclusion (which is no different than Adam Smith), artificially controlling labor is bad and hurts the economy.

 

And there is plenty of jobs available, just many Americans dont want to work them. Which is the exact reason why we need immigrant labor to fill that niche. If there were no jobs, they wouldnt be coming here. Its really just that simple.

Half my family was already here, descending from Sioux and Blackfoot tribes, although by the time you get to my grandfather, they were just Appalachion rednecks. Of the other half, one came here LEGALLY from Germany and joined the Navy. The last quarter, we are not sure on, so can't speak to that.

 

And how is trying to maintain America being an oppressor? Seriously, why can't America defend its borders?

[southsider2k5]

This is what they said about your family when they came to the US. Its the exact same argument. Its always saddening to see those who were once the oppressed turn into the oppressor.

 

 

 

 

You may not be able to compare historically, but most economists agree that generally speaking increased immigration is good for an economy. You can read Cato or any number of think tanks which almost all come to the same conclusion (which is no different than Adam Smith), artificially controlling labor is bad and hurts the economy.

 

And there is plenty of jobs available, just many Americans dont want to work them. Which is the exact reason why we need immigrant labor to fill that niche. If there were no jobs, they wouldnt be coming here. Its really just that simple.

 

Immigration is great to fill needs. We should have a policy that matches employment needs with immigrants. We don't have an employment problem in general with a U6 of over 12%. I am very opposed to an immigration policy that results in native workers losing jobs to immigrants. That does not help the country as a whole.

[Soxbadger]

Half my family was already here, descending from Sioux and Blackfoot tribes, although by the time you get to my grandfather, they were just Appalachion rednecks. Of the other half, one came here LEGALLY from Germany and joined the Navy. The last quarter, we are not sure on, so can't speak to that.

 

And how is trying to maintain America being an oppressor? Seriously, why can't America defend its borders?

 

Well if your family is Native American, then I apologize. They can legitimately argue against any immigration policy. As for the rest of your family, the entire point is back then, it was easier to immigrate. All I am saying is that we should return to the previous rules about immigration.

 

America can do what it wants. If the majority of people believe that a closed border is what should be done, then in America, it can happen. That isnt the point though. The point is why a closed border will ultimately ruin America. You dont have to believe me, but you can go read a lot of information about it and see why more immigrants= better economy.

 

Its one thing that most agree. You can find forbes articles ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/201...alize-all-work/ ) you can find cato articles (linked above), you can find it in time citing brookings institute ( http://business.time.com/2013/01/30/the-ec...-loses-and-why/ ) “The most recent academic research suggests that, on average, immigrants raise the overall standard of living of American workers by boosting wages and lowering prices.”

 

But here is the great part about America, it doesnt matter what the facts are. You are entitled to your opinion. Maybe one day I will convince people, maybe one day someone more clever than myself will convince people, but eventually they will be convinced.

 

I just hope that it is in my lifetime.