White Sox Winner????

[LDF]

Didn't really need a bunch of statistical analysis to tell us that, did we?

 

 

as much as it hurts, we need to continuing reminding ourself, we are rebuilding.

 

we are going to drive ourselves crazy and continue to ask how we got like this.... bottom line

we won a world series with GM at the helm, and I trust Hahn.

 

I hope it is a 1 yr plan.

[southsider2k5]

as much as it hurts, we need to continuing reminding ourself, we are rebuilding.

 

we are going to drive ourselves crazy and continue to ask how we got like this.... bottom line

we won a world series with GM at the helm, and I trust Hahn.

 

I hope it is a 1 yr plan.

 

On a season like this, it is a good idea to not get too high when they are winning (this is not a playoff team), or too low when they are losing (this is not a 70 win team either). Keep focus on the rebuilding process.

[LDF]

On a season like this, it is a good idea to not get too high when they are winning (this is not a playoff team), or too low when they are losing (this is not a 70 win team either). Keep focus on the rebuilding process.

 

its not my fault ..... it the medical stuff I am smoking.

 

but it is true on the medical stuff.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Ha I was calling him Blowasavio from the moment they installed him as closer! I didn't know other people were calling him that, I don't listen to the radio unless the game is on or if I see someone here talk about a Sox interview upcoming, then I'll turn it on if I have time. Not that I have anything against Bruuuuuuuuuce but I was there first. Although it's obvious, blatantly obvious.

 

Also you guys are haters.

[flavum]

Ha I was calling him Blowasavio from the moment they installed him as closer! I didn't know other people were calling him that, I don't listen to the radio unless the game is on or if I see someone here talk about a Sox interview upcoming, then I'll turn it on if I have time. Not that I have anything against Bruuuuuuuuuce but I was there first. Although it's obvious, blatantly obvious.

 

Also you guys are haters.

 

I can't decide which is worse.

[The Ultimate Champion]

HoT fIrE>Blowsavio

Fires are hot as it is. Why would a fire not be hot? I don't get it.

 

Now there is Bic lighter temperature vs. forging temperature for example, both being fires, so maybe hot fire is like forging temperature and cold fire is like Bic lighter temperature.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I can't decide which is worse.

You are, as indecision is always the worst possible outcome. It is no outcome.

[Eminor3rd]

Ha I was calling him Blowasavio from the moment they installed him as closer! I didn't know other people were calling him that, I don't listen to the radio unless the game is on or if I see someone here talk about a Sox interview upcoming, then I'll turn it on if I have time. Not that I have anything against Bruuuuuuuuuce but I was there first. Although it's obvious, blatantly obvious.

 

Also you guys are haters.

 

YOU'RE the hater. Because you're a hate hater. I hate hate haters.

[ptatc]

According to fangraphs, the White Sox have the worst bullpen in baseball.

 

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...0&sort=15,a

Part of it is also injuries.

[Dick Allen]

Part of it is also injuries.

Yes, but Lindstrom wasn't exactly adored around here. Nate Jones has had his moments, but is he the difference from being ranked last to at least middle of the pack?

 

How is this fixed? Is it just luck? No one complained when Hahn signed Belisario and Downs. Cleto, Francisco, all that garbage were thought to below risk/high reward moves, and applauded. Putnam and Petricka have been way better than anyone could have thought. Moving forward, do you spend big money on the bullpen? Last time it was this awful, Linebrink and Dotel were brought in. Or do you develop your own and hope you are lucky? The facts are, we often say the Sox are pretty good at developing pitchers. A lot of people praised Hahn's moves, including the bullpen moves, and we often hear about the magic of Don Cooper. Yet, last in baseball. If relievers are really a dime a dozen, is it just going to be dumb luck when they have a good bullpen, and just bad luck when it's awful? You can't get away with a mediocre bullpen anymore.

 

Some will say the Sox really weren't trying to compete this year, but Hahn did spend money on his bullpen, and there is no way he was thinking they would be as bad as they have been, and no way he is fine with it.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Yes, but Lindstrom wasn't exactly adored around here. Nate Jones has had his moments, but is he the difference from being ranked last to at least middle of the pack?

 

How is this fixed? Is it just luck? No one complained when Hahn signed Belisario and Downs. Cleto, Francisco, all that garbage were thought to below risk/high reward moves, and applauded. Putnam and Petricka have been way better than anyone could have thought. Moving forward, do you spend big money on the bullpen? Last time it was this awful, Linebrink and Dotel were brought in. Or do you develop your own and hope you are lucky? The facts are, we often say the Sox are pretty good at developing pitchers. A lot of people praised Hahn's moves, including the bullpen moves, and we often hear about the magic of Don Cooper. Yet, last in baseball. If relievers are really a dime a dozen, is it just going to be dumb luck when they have a good bullpen, and just bad luck when it's awful? You can't get away with a mediocre bullpen anymore.

 

Some will say the Sox really weren't trying to compete this year, but Hahn did spend money on his bullpen, and there is no way he was thinking they would be as bad as they have been, and no way he is fine with it.

Yes, I think if you take the 8th and 9th inning guys out of a bullpen completely, that's pretty much the difference between dead last and somewhere in the middle of the pack. This bullpen is completely up in the air because it lost those guys, that pushed everyone else into roles they weren't comfortable with, and we're watching the results right now.

 

With how those guys would have been used, they probably would have picked up 1/3 of the bullpen innings or more if they were here for the full season.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, I think if you take the 8th and 9th inning guys out of a bullpen completely, that's pretty much the difference between dead last and somewhere in the middle of the pack. This bullpen is completely up in the air because it lost those guys, that pushed everyone else into roles they weren't comfortable with, and we're watching the results right now.

 

With how those guys would have been used, they probably would have picked up 1/3 of the bullpen innings or more if they were here for the full season.

The bullpen was bad when Lindstrom was healthy. To say an average bullpen is one Nate Jones injury away from being the worst is a little far-fetched, IMO. The ninth inning is a different story, but if the current bullpen is loaded with guys that can only pitch the 6th inning, or only pitch the 7th inning, an overhaul is needed badly. Belisario and Lindstrom both got the closer role mostly based on previous experience. And besides, you would have to be very lucky to go an entire year without injuries to your pitching staff.

[The Ultimate Champion]

The bullpen was bad when Lindstrom was healthy. To say an average bullpen is one Nate Jones injury away from being the worst is a little far-fetched, IMO. The ninth inning is a different story, but if the current bullpen is loaded with guys that can only pitch the 6th inning, or only pitch the 7th inning, an overhaul is needed badly. Belisario and Lindstrom both got the closer role mostly based on previous experience. And besides, you would have to be very lucky to go an entire year without injuries to your pitching staff.

Yeah this is true.

 

Discounting Noesi who became a starter and Leury Garcia who was an emergency option, the following players all appeared out of the pen for us this year:

 

Ronald Belisario

Jake Petricka

Daniel Webb

Zach Putnam

Scott Downs

Scott Carroll

Matt Lindstrom

Maikel Cleto

Javy Guerra

Donnie Veal

Frank Francisco

Charles Leesman

Nate Jones

 

Of those 13 pitchers, which itself is an entire pitching staff, there have been exactly 2 players I have had confidence in pretty much throughout, Putnam and Petricka. Everyone else has at least been bad for periods and/or hurt, and most of these guys have been garbage.

 

[Balta1701]

The bullpen was bad when Lindstrom was healthy. To say an average bullpen is one Nate Jones injury away from being the worst is a little far-fetched, IMO. The ninth inning is a different story, but if the current bullpen is loaded with guys that can only pitch the 6th inning, or only pitch the 7th inning, an overhaul is needed badly. Belisario and Lindstrom both got the closer role mostly based on previous experience. And besides, you would have to be very lucky to go an entire year without injuries to your pitching staff.

Part of that though was Lindstrom having no spring training and so he basically was outmatched his first few times out. The bullpen hit a good enough groove right around the end of April when Lindstrom was healthy and finally warmed up into the season that they had several really good weeks and, for a time, dragged themselves out of the cellar. Then Lindstrom went down and that alone was a major blow.

 

I don't remember the exact numbers but there was a stretch at the end of April/early may where, over several weeks, the bullpen was putting up good, consistent numbers and actually not giving up runs. Then Lindstrom got hurt.

[southsider2k5]

Yes, I think if you take the 8th and 9th inning guys out of a bullpen completely, that's pretty much the difference between dead last and somewhere in the middle of the pack. This bullpen is completely up in the air because it lost those guys, that pushed everyone else into roles they weren't comfortable with, and we're watching the results right now.

 

With how those guys would have been used, they probably would have picked up 1/3 of the bullpen innings or more if they were here for the full season.

 

I don't think it is any coincidence that the pen got much worse when everyone got moved up an inning after Lindstrom's injury. The only guy who seemingly hasn't suffered has been Petricka. Personally I would think about putting Javy Guerra into the closers slot, and moving everyone back an inning (Bel 8th, Jake 7th, Putnam 5/6, Webb mop up, Rienzo/Caroll long, Downs LOOGY) to try to re-balance the pen. I know the main push has been for Webb, but he walks WAY too many guys right now to be in the 9th inning, or any real high leverage situations.

[southsider2k5]

The bullpen was bad when Lindstrom was healthy. To say an average bullpen is one Nate Jones injury away from being the worst is a little far-fetched, IMO. The ninth inning is a different story, but if the current bullpen is loaded with guys that can only pitch the 6th inning, or only pitch the 7th inning, an overhaul is needed badly. Belisario and Lindstrom both got the closer role mostly based on previous experience. And besides, you would have to be very lucky to go an entire year without injuries to your pitching staff.

 

How many bullpens lost their primary closer and primary set up guys for multiple months this year?

[Dick Allen]

How many bullpens lost their primary closer and primary set up guys for multiple months this year?

You are actually saying losing Matt Lindstrom was a big blow? I like Nate Jones, but if you don't have anyone who can replace the 2014 version of Matt Lindstrom, you have issues.

 

There are no excuses. The bullpen has sucked.

[southsider2k5]

You are actually saying losing Matt Lindstrom was a big blow? I like Nate Jones, but if you don't have anyone who can replace the 2014 version of Matt Lindstrom, you have issues.

 

There are no excuses. The bullpen has sucked.

 

Losing both your closer, and your primary set up man is a big blow to any team.

 

Again, what other teams have done that this year, and not had any problems?

[Dick Allen]

Losing both your closer, and your primary set up man is a big blow to any team.

 

Again, what other teams have done that this year, and not had any problems?

Just off the top of my head:

Oakland lost their closer for poor performance, yet they are comfortably in first place.

 

The 2005 White Sox lost their closer to a DFA, then lost his replacement who was a set up guy to a back injury, and they were in first place every day that season.

[southsider2k5]

Just off the top of my head:

Oakland lost their closer for poor performance, yet they are comfortably in first place.

 

The 2005 White Sox lost their closer to a DFA, then lost his replacement who was a set up guy to a back injury, and they were in first place every day that season.

 

So 10 years since a team lost both and was successful?

[Dick Allen]

So 10 years since a team lost both and was successful?

There also was the 2013 Red Sox. It is Matt Lindstrom and Nate Jones. If losing those guys makes you the worst in baseball, it wasn't nearly good enough to begin with.

[Balta1701]

There also was the 2013 Red Sox. It is Matt Lindstrom and Nate Jones. If losing those guys makes you the worst in baseball, it wasn't nearly good enough to begin with.

Well yeah, it wasn't good enough to begin with, that's a consequence of this being a rebuilding year. That bullpen was designed to set us up to potentially compete next year. Give time to some young guys who have promise but no experience, run a couple tryouts to find a diamond or two in the rough who we can control for several years, and pitch the couple assets we have at the back of the bullpen to potentially build their trade value or get them experience in the closer's role.

 

Unfortunately, the last part of that, the guys who should be the strength, have been injured, but we have succeeded on the "getting experience for several guys" and "finding a diamond or two in the rough" part already.

[Dick Allen]

Well yeah, it wasn't good enough to begin with, that's a consequence of this being a rebuilding year. That bullpen was designed to set us up to potentially compete next year. Give time to some young guys who have promise but no experience, run a couple tryouts to find a diamond or two in the rough who we can control for several years, and pitch the couple assets we have at the back of the bullpen to potentially build their trade value or get them experience in the closer's role.

 

Unfortunately, the last part of that, the guys who should be the strength, have been injured, but we have succeeded on the "getting experience for several guys" and "finding a diamond or two in the rough" part already.

Matt Lindstrom wasn't a strength. He was names the closer by default. The Giants won the WS losing their closer early in 2012 and the Yankees overcame Mariano Rivera getting hurt to win 95 games that same year. Jones and Lindstrom aren't even in the same league as those guys.

 

And with the volatility of relievers what good does finding a diamond in the rough do you going forward? Would it surprise anyone if Putnam and Petricka become gas cans next season.

[Balta1701]

Matt Lindstrom wasn't a strength. He was names the closer by default. The Giants won the WS losing their closer early in 2012 and the Yankees overcame Mariano Rivera getting hurt to win 95 games that same year. Jones and Lindstrom aren't even in the same league as those guys.

 

And with the volatility of relievers what good does finding a diamond in the rough do you going forward? Would it surprise anyone if Putnam and Petricka become gas cans next season.

And your entire reply simply supports the statement that THIS IS A REBUILDING YEAR. You are comparing the rebuilding white sox to teams that won 95 games and wondering why our bullpen wouldn't measure up even when people were healthy. It should not have done so. This is a rebuilding year. We are rebuilding. This is what the people who wanted to sell off veterans and develop young talent wanted. Again, rebuilding.

[LDF]

And your entire reply simply supports the statement that THIS IS A REBUILDING YEAR. You are comparing the rebuilding white sox to teams that won 95 games and wondering why our bullpen wouldn't measure up even when people were healthy. It should not have done so. This is a rebuilding year. We are rebuilding. This is what the people who wanted to sell off veterans and develop young talent wanted. Again, rebuilding.

 

and if I may, I would like to add, no matter how many games we win and the excitement of winning, lets not

get carried away. we are rebuilding and let stay on course.

 

the winning is nice and it does show we have the foundation to build on. I am really excited on this team. get

prospects and players to build on.