Mariners trade partners?

[witesoxfan]

Thank you for doing this. Some people seem to forget that for some players it does take time to develop. Viciedo is still only 25, he's got talent, just needs to put everything together, and I hope that it's with the White Sox.

 

Every now and then, serial felons turn their lives around and become great members of society. More often, serial felons remain serial felons.

 

The guy has talent, and he'll always get shots based on that, but sticking with someone because two guys in the entire league did it is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe the Sox should pick up Wily Mo Pena too because, after all, Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion.

[oldsox]

If his level of play stays about the same through rest of this season, I think he will be back here in 2015. Dunn, PK, and de Aza most likely will be gone,,,,,who's going to beat him out for a roster spot?

[witesoxfan]

If his level of play stays about the same through rest of this season, I think he will be back here in 2015. Dunn, PK, and de Aza most likely will be gone,,,,,who's going to beat him out for a roster spot?

 

He'll be back unless someone wants to give up an interesting prospect, but that doesn't mean he'll be good.

[Balta1701]

If his level of play stays about the same through rest of this season, I think he will be back here in 2015. Dunn, PK, and de Aza most likely will be gone,,,,,who's going to beat him out for a roster spot?

Don't forget the other part of it though, he'll be a 2nd year arb-eligible player this offseason and so this will be the first year he's due a substantial raise. He's at $2.8 million this year but presumably goes to the $4-$5 million range next year.

[harfman77]

I can see a Viciedo - Domonic Brown change of scenery swap. Both have seemingly hit walls in their organizations and don't have the value they did two years ago. Alexei and De Aza to the Mariners for Franklin, Smoak, and Lars Huijer. Dunn and Beckham to the A's for Seth Streich and Bruce Maxwell.

 

 

2015:

 

CF Eaton

2B Sanchez/Semien

3B Gillaspie/Davidson

DH Abreu

1B Smoak

RF Garcia

LF Brown

SS Franklin

C Flowers/Nieto/Phegley

[GreenSox]

I have no doubt someone would give him a shot, but I really think we're deluding ourselves if we think we're going to get anything exciting back. He can't help anyone right now, and a guy who's had 1500 PA of ML failure is much less likely to help a team LATER than the prospect we would hope they'd give up.

But yet, people insist that Dustin Ackley, a year older and a career OPS of a mighty .659 has real value.

And Justin Smoak - my gosh, even though he is 3 years older and has a career OBS 35 points below Viciedo, he's a real talent!

 

BTW, Viciedo has a gun. Is that calculated in these defensive metrics?

And while most players don't turn their lights on at 26 or 27, some do. A late blooming Cub almost pitched a NH the other night and is having a great year; And then there is Jose Bautista, who had a Viciedo like career until he turned 29. Or Carlos Gomez who arose from the dead at 27.

Edited July 1, 2014 by GreenSox

[Balta1701]

BTW, Viciedo has a gun. Is that calculated in these defensive metrics?

Yes.

[witesoxfan]

But yet, people insist that Dustin Ackley, a year older and a career OPS of a mighty .659 has real value.

And Justin Smoak - my gosh, even though he is 3 years older and has a career OBS 35 points below Viciedo, he's a real talent!

 

BTW, Viciedo has a gun. Is that calculated in these defensive metrics?

And while most players don't turn their lights on at 26 or 27, some do. A late blooming Cub almost pitched a NH the other night and is having a great year; And then there is Jose Bautista, who had a Viciedo like career until he turned 29. Or Carlos Gomez who arose from the dead at 27.

 

I don't think anyone has said Ackley has value. If they have, they're wrong.

 

You are also talking about guys that are the exception to the rule. No one is saying that the Sox should cut bait with Viciedo or give him away for peanuts or stop playing him all together, but I don't think I've ever seen this much support for a guy who has never shown anything but flashes.

[Dick Allen]

I don't think anyone has said Ackley has value. If they have, they're wrong.

 

You are also talking about guys that are the exception to the rule. No one is saying that the Sox should cut bait with Viciedo or give him away for peanuts or stop playing him all together, but I don't think I've ever seen this much support for a guy who has never shown anything but flashes.

Felipe Paulino. Anyone projecting any sort of success for Viciedo isn't nearly as crazy as some of the numbers you were projecting for Paulino.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/5...win-encarnacion

Encarnacion went from his rookie year through 2011 (and these were years when power was up) hitting mostly in the low 700ish range for OPS.

 

He played 3B at that time, but he was terrible at that position, and eventually moved to 1B/DH.

 

 

There's also the example of Jose Bautista, who had a very solid rookie year, almost fell entirely off the map and then recovered. Domonic Brown...Pedro Alvarez, etc.

 

No guarantees, but Encarnacion and Viciedo have been compared a lot. He's definitely worth SOMETHING to someone.

 

Yeah, and people win the lottery every now and then too

[witesoxfan]

Felipe Paulino. Anyone projecting any sort of success for Viciedo isn't nearly as crazy as some of the numbers you were projecting for Paulino.

 

You're right, I thought he was going to be good and he sucked. I've admitted that I was wrong. Why would you bring that up out of the blue? I don't understand. I mean, it's totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

[Dick Allen]

You're right, I thought he was going to be good and he sucked. I've admitted that I was wrong. Why would you bring that up out of the blue? I don't understand. I mean, it's totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

Support for flashes was what I was responding to. You gave support for flashes even after a couple of surgeries and also suggested not only would he be good, but perhaps even better than ever. Nevermind he had his first flash of success when he was 27 years old. So really if you are going to rip people for supporting Viciedo, because at 25 he has only showed flashes, it really doesn't make sense.

[Eminor3rd]

But yet, people insist that Dustin Ackley, a year older and a career OPS of a mighty .659 has real value.

And Justin Smoak - my gosh, even though he is 3 years older and has a career OBS 35 points below Viciedo, he's a real talent!

 

BTW, Viciedo has a gun. Is that calculated in these defensive metrics?

And while most players don't turn their lights on at 26 or 27, some do. A late blooming Cub almost pitched a NH the other night and is having a great year; And then there is Jose Bautista, who had a Viciedo like career until he turned 29. Or Carlos Gomez who arose from the dead at 27.

 

Who are these people suggesting that Ackley and Smoak have value? JZ offered Ackley for DV in the offseason and Hahn turned it down.

 

Dayan Viciedo COULD turn it around, and I hope he does, but it is NOT likely. You can dig and find 3-5 example of late bloomers recently, and I could look at a roster and find hundreds that haven't. So don't expect someone to trade a younger prospect who is more likely to be good. That's all I'm saying.

[Dick Allen]

Who are these people suggesting that Ackley and Smoak have value? JZ offered Ackley for DV in the offseason and Hahn turned it down.

 

Dayan Viciedo COULD turn it around, and I hope he does, but it is NOT likely. You can dig and find 3-5 example of late bloomers recently, and I could look at a roster and find hundreds that haven't. So don't expect someone to trade a younger prospect who is more likely to be good. That's all I'm saying.

When was Ackley offered for Viciedo?

[southsider2k5]

Felipe Paulino.

 

Aaand there goes the thread

[witesoxfan]

Support for flashes was what I was responding to. You gave support for flashes even after a couple of surgeries and also suggested not only would he be good, but perhaps even better than ever. Nevermind he had his first flash of success when he was 27 years old. So really if you are going to rip people for supporting Viciedo, because at 25 he has only showed flashes, it really doesn't make sense.

 

I said that Felipe Paulino could be the 3rd best starter (with the rotation as is, that wouldn't even have to be a good pitcher) and I thought he could put up a 3.50-4.00 ERA, which is not that big of a stretch in today's environment (for decent pitchers). He completely flopped. These other people are comparing Dayan Viciedo to some of the best hitters in the game.

 

Had I said "hey look, Cliff Lee figured it out at 27, I'm sure Felipe Paulino can do that too," I would have expected to be lambasted.

[Eminor3rd]

Support for flashes was what I was responding to. You gave support for flashes even after a couple of surgeries and also suggested not only would he be good, but perhaps even better than ever. Nevermind he had his first flash of success when he was 27 years old. So really if you are going to rip people for supporting Viciedo, because at 25 he has only showed flashes, it really doesn't make sense.

 

That's not the same thing at all.

 

Wite was excited because we got a guy for nothing, thought he might be better than he had been in the past. Posters here are suggesting that now that DV has been bad, we should be able to trade him for good prospects.

 

If it was the same thing, wite would be saying we should trade Felipe Paulino for prospects instead of DFA'ing him.

[Eminor3rd]

When was Ackley offered for Viciedo?

 

I think it was during the winter meetings that the rumor came out and was pretty much confirmed by other sources. Word was that JZ called Hahn and made the offer of Ackley for Viciedo, and Hahn countered with Viciedo for Franklin instead, but JZ didn't respond.

[Dick Allen]

I think it was during the winter meetings that the rumor came out and was pretty much confirmed by other sources. Word was that JZ called Hahn and made the offer of Ackley for Viciedo, and Hahn countered with Viciedo for Franklin instead, but JZ didn't respond.

I don't think that is true at all. I am certain Hahn wouldn't have traded Viciedo for Franklin.

[Dick Allen]

That's not the same thing at all.

 

Wite was excited because we got a guy for nothing, thought he might be better than he had been in the past. Posters here are suggesting that now that DV has been bad, we should be able to trade him for good prospects.

 

If it was the same thing, wite would be saying we should trade Felipe Paulino for prospects instead of DFA'ing him.

It is the same thing. I am not talking trade value. He mentioned support based on flashes. That is exactly what his support for Paulino was based on. When you actually put some logic into the equation, at the very least you would have to admit Dayan Viciedo putting up great numbers is at least as good of a bet than Felipe Paulino coming into 2014.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

It is the same thing. He mentioned support based on flashes. That is exactly what his support for Paulino was based on.

 

Yes, you are correct, and I thought he could be decent. Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, and Carlos Gomez are 3 of the best players in the game.

 

I've also compared Viciedo to Beltre previously too and I think, if he were to ever reach his ceiling, he could be that kind of player. Are you going to call me on that too?

[Dick Allen]

Yes, you are correct, and I thought he could be decent. Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, and Carlos Gomez are 3 of the best players in the game.

 

I've also compared Viciedo to Beltre previously too and I think, if he were to ever reach his ceiling, he could be that kind of player. Are you going to call me on that too?

You were the one who called out the Viciedo supporters. Not me. I just pointed out if that is irrational, you also give some irrational support.

[Eminor3rd]

It is the same thing. I am not talking trade value. He mentioned support based on flashes. That is exactly what his support for Paulino was based on. When you actually put some logic into the equation, at the very least you would have to admit Dayan Viciedo putting up great numbers is at least as good of a bet than Felipe Paulino coming into 2014.

 

If you're not talking trade value, then you're ignoring the conversation. There are outcomes between "guy sucks" and "guy is a superstar," and understanding that is crucial to understanding what we're talking about.

[witesoxfan]

You were the one who called out the Viciedo supporters. Not me. I just pointed out if that is irrational, you also give some irrational support.

 

For thinking the guy is going to become one of the best hitters in the game? Yes, you're damn right I will call out people who think that a mediocre to bad hitter is going to turn into one of the best hitters in the game through the magic of getting older.

 

I think he'll get better and probably be an average to above average hitter through his prime years, but expecting 40+ home runs is absurd.

[Eminor3rd]

I don't think that is true at all. I am certain Hahn wouldn't have traded Viciedo for Franklin.

 

Ok, well I'm just telling you what was written over the offseason. I'm not going vouch for the validity of Jon Heyman or whoever it was that said these things.