When do you fire Robin?

[BlackSox13]

If Ozzie Guillen got 8 seasons, Ventura deserves 20.

I'm not a fan of Ventura as a manager but I cannot argue against this logic. Damn, you had to go and drag Ozzie into this.

[The Ultimate Champion]

If Ozzie Guillen got 8 seasons, Ventura deserves 20.

Ozzie was a much better game manager than Robin. Ozzie was more middle of the pack in that respect.

 

In his first couple/few seasons, before his ego got the best of him, the way he would handle the clubhouse and media and get the players to play for him overall made him an asset.

 

Ozzie's #1 biggest issue was ego, and his #2 biggest issue wasn't really even his fault, it was Reinsdorf's fault, by letting him be part-GM and help do Kenny's job.

 

I guess the thought with Robin was that he could be an Ozzie-like manager in terms of dealing with the public and clubhouse, and could keep things in order, without all the ego stuff, self-importance, without all the feelings of entitlement that he should be allowed to make GM types of decisions or heavily influence what the GM wanted to do, etc.

 

**IF** Robin could develop into a mid-level, Ozzie type of game/field manager and do the above then we will have an asset. But 3 years into this thing and I see still the glaring brain farts, none more glaring than micromanaging the IF defense while allowing your corner OFs to play shallow routinely, falling for the fake bunt and drawing the 3B in so the hitter can smack the ball by him when the guy at the plate isn't even a threat to lay down a good bunt anyway, not getting his relievers up in time and deciding to overtrust and undertrust players, etc. Just the basic stuff. I will say that I like a few things, like his use of Nieto this year and so on, basically taking a chance and adding a bench player as mostly the backup C role is a spot that isn't even used. On the whole he's bad though.

 

I could get behind the idea Chisoxfn through out there about a new bench coach. If this is mostly/largely Parent's work then HE GONE. IMO.

[hi8is]

You fire him when he has a team that is supposed to compete and doesn't based on his performance

[witesoxfan]

You fire him when he has a team that is supposed to compete and doesn't based on his performance

 

Never in million, zillion years did I ever think you'd make this much sense, but you hit the nail on the head so perfectly and astutely with this that I'm not sure it's really even you anymore.

[LDF]

My problem with Ventura is that we are seeing the exact same mental mistakes in the field and on the basepaths as last year.

Throw in his at times puzzling bullpen decisions (granted he has s*** to work with) and I don't really think he's the man we want when we have a decent team again.

 

IMO his only real strength is that he keeps things in the clubhouse and deals well with the media. His tactics often leave me scratching my head and some of his decisions have led directly to losses. Running out of pitchers earlier in the year was a pretty bad sin. That's just not something that can happen in your 3rd year managing.

 

the blame can't all be the manager, he gets advise from his coaches.

 

[LDF]

Never in million, zillion years did I ever think you'd make this much sense, but you hit the nail on the head so perfectly and astutely with this that I'm not sure it's really even you anymore.

 

[LDF]

Ozzie was a much better game manager than Robin. Ozzie was more middle of the pack in that respect.

 

In his first couple/few seasons, before his ego got the best of him, the way he would handle the clubhouse and media and get the players to play for him overall made him an asset.

 

Ozzie's #1 biggest issue was ego, and his #2 biggest issue wasn't really even his fault, it was Reinsdorf's fault, by letting him be part-GM and help do Kenny's job.

 

I guess the thought with Robin was that he could be an Ozzie-like manager in terms of dealing with the public and clubhouse, and could keep things in order, without all the ego stuff, self-importance, without all the feelings of entitlement that he should be allowed to make GM types of decisions or heavily influence what the GM wanted to do, etc.

 

**IF** Robin could develop into a mid-level, Ozzie type of game/field manager and do the above then we will have an asset. But 3 years into this thing and I see still the glaring brain farts, none more glaring than micromanaging the IF defense while allowing your corner OFs to play shallow routinely, falling for the fake bunt and drawing the 3B in so the hitter can smack the ball by him when the guy at the plate isn't even a threat to lay down a good bunt anyway, not getting his relievers up in time and deciding to overtrust and undertrust players, etc. Just the basic stuff. I will say that I like a few things, like his use of Nieto this year and so on, basically taking a chance and adding a bench player as mostly the backup C role is a spot that isn't even used. On the whole he's bad though.

 

I could get behind the idea Chisoxfn through out there about a new bench coach. If this is mostly/largely Parent's work then HE GONE. IMO.

 

ozzie had coaching history after he played ball. robin is imho learning on the job.

[southsider2k5]

Ozzie was a much better game manager than Robin. Ozzie was more middle of the pack in that respect.

 

In his first couple/few seasons, before his ego got the best of him, the way he would handle the clubhouse and media and get the players to play for him overall made him an asset.

 

Ozzie's #1 biggest issue was ego, and his #2 biggest issue wasn't really even his fault, it was Reinsdorf's fault, by letting him be part-GM and help do Kenny's job.

 

I guess the thought with Robin was that he could be an Ozzie-like manager in terms of dealing with the public and clubhouse, and could keep things in order, without all the ego stuff, self-importance, without all the feelings of entitlement that he should be allowed to make GM types of decisions or heavily influence what the GM wanted to do, etc.

 

**IF** Robin could develop into a mid-level, Ozzie type of game/field manager and do the above then we will have an asset. But 3 years into this thing and I see still the glaring brain farts, none more glaring than micromanaging the IF defense while allowing your corner OFs to play shallow routinely, falling for the fake bunt and drawing the 3B in so the hitter can smack the ball by him when the guy at the plate isn't even a threat to lay down a good bunt anyway, not getting his relievers up in time and deciding to overtrust and undertrust players, etc. Just the basic stuff. I will say that I like a few things, like his use of Nieto this year and so on, basically taking a chance and adding a bench player as mostly the backup C role is a spot that isn't even used. On the whole he's bad though.

 

I could get behind the idea Chisoxfn through out there about a new bench coach. If this is mostly/largely Parent's work then HE GONE. IMO.

 

I'll be honest, I quit reading right there. Ozzie got almost the exact same spate of complaints about how he handled pitchers and bullpens. He also got crucified for his "sunday line ups" and running needlessly with two outs.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I think this year has been better than last year, except for a couple of the more stupid players.

 

In general, when your pen sucks, there isn't much to manage. For much of the season, he has been arms short out there, and relying on minor leaguers and DFA's to do jobs that they shouldn't be doing. It is like asking a world class sprinter to run a marathon. They just aren't that good.

The other side of the coin is that when play are made, everyone forgets about them. That's why it seems so unbalanced. If you don't believe me, pick another team, and watch what their fans say about them. Every single manager in baseball does incredibly stupid and obvious things, according to their own fans.

I agree with this.

 

I guess I'd phrase it this way:

1) you have your base-level, amateur, inexperienced manager type mistakes; this includes things like lack of focus, not looking beyond the current situation as much as necessary, etc. and to me these could indicate a lack of diligence, preparedness, etc.

2) you have your few mistakes of really whatever variety here and there that anyone else could and would make

3) you have a ton of variables involved on a situation-to-situation, game-to-game basis where multiple options are present re: each decision you have to make, and choosing the "wrong" option according to the fans is choosing any seemingly viable option that doesn't end up working out... and in the context of a bad bullpen, at any given time, there may be 2 options neither of which are really viable and the decision is likely to look "bad"

 

I think Robin makes too many of the #1 types of mistakes. The #2 types you don't worry about, when something dumb happens you just say "oh well" because these things happen. The #3 types aren't even mistakes, they are just baseball decisions that don't work out. I think Robin needs to cut the #1 types of things out, show a better general understanding both of the game and his players, and if he doesn't start doing that soon he should be canned.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I'll be honest, I quit reading right there. Ozzie got almost the exact same spate of complaints about how he handled pitchers and bullpens. He also got crucified for his "sunday line ups" and running needlessly with two outs.

You have to play your bench. Ozzie didn't have to play them all at once, but he did have to play them.

 

Ozzie was a halfway decent manager at worst when it came to the on-field stuff. Scoscia would manage the pants off him, good managers would catch him on things, but in general there was nothing wrong with most of what he did on the field. There is a line between bad and great, Ozzie was more toward the middle, Robin has been more toward the bad IMO.

 

And I absolutely loved how Ozzie handled his pitchers for the most part. I love the trust he put in them. My main compaint was the way he mishandled specialists, but I think that was more of Ozzie sending a message to his GM that he didn't want one out guys, he wanted guys who could pitch to both sides of the plate. In that manner I would fault his philosophy just as I would fault the idea of having to have a fast guy at the top of the lineup whether he sucks or not, i.e. the idea is fine in theory but in reality the game of baseball is difficult enough and most teams simply don't have 7 guys in the pen who can pitch to both lefties and righties or have that prototypical lead-off hitter.

 

Overall though, mid-tier. The Tigers fans acted as though Leyland was crap but you have to admit, definitely more mid-tier at worst and he did a lot of the things Ozzie would do.

[chitownsportsfan]

I pretty much agree with everything the Ultimate Champion has said in his last few posts. The mistakes Robin makes are f***ing amateuer hour stuff and it happens way, way too often. Great posts Champion I agree with your take on Robin and managers 100%.

 

75% of managers don't tilt the scale either way. Another 15% might actively hurt your chances of winning because of mistakes like you pointed out as #1. Another 10% might actively win you games by being an amazing tactician and/or motivator (Joe Maddon types).

 

Even then though, I'm talking about MAYBE a 2 game swing because of bad or great managing. The manager doesn't really matter much but when the Sox get a good team again I sure as heck don't want Robin managing it.

[Eminor3rd]

Soon, please. Let's get a real manager so we can stop wasting Sale's years.

 

A real bullpen will do much more.

[flavum]

I will say this--I'd rather judge Robin as a manager with the following guys gone: De Aza, Viciedo, Dunn, Konerko, Beckham, and Flowers.

[LDF]

 

I rather judge robin when we have a solid 5 starters and solid outfield when the time to win is there.

[Balta1701]

I'll be honest, I quit reading right there. Ozzie got almost the exact same spate of complaints about how he handled pitchers and bullpens. He also got crucified for his "sunday line ups" and running needlessly with two outs.

I actually still am generally a fan of his "sunday lineup" format in terms of making sure the bench gets work and making sure the roster gets rest. I am much more opposed to the mandatory platoons he used regardless of how people were actually performing in cases (CF, 2006) and the fact that there were some guys who did not get regular rest even when there were backups (see: Carlos Quentin playing in >60 straight games in 2008).

 

Given the choice between resting guys a few too many times and Robin Ventura playing Abreu until his foot falls off, I will compliment Ozzie and the Sunday Lineups.

[southsider2k5]

I can think of maybe one poster who would consistently say that Ozzie was a good in game manager. Almost all of the positive things about Guillen as a manager that were said had to do with how he motivated certain players, at least until he quit caring about anyone but himself. The vast majority here thought of him as an in-game idiot.

 

Anything else is revisionist history.

[flavum]

Is it Sunday?

 

https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/4822485...8474625/photo/1

[The Ultimate Champion]

I pretty much agree with everything the Ultimate Champion has said in his last few posts. The mistakes Robin makes are f***ing amateuer hour stuff and it happens way, way too often. Great posts Champion I agree with your take on Robin and managers 100%.

 

75% of managers don't tilt the scale either way. Another 15% might actively hurt your chances of winning because of mistakes like you pointed out as #1. Another 10% might actively win you games by being an amazing tactician and/or motivator (Joe Maddon types).

 

Even then though, I'm talking about MAYBE a 2 game swing because of bad or great managing. The manager doesn't really matter much but when the Sox get a good team again I sure as heck don't want Robin managing it.

Thank you very much. I will rate your profile 5 stars in appreciation. Also, this is for you:

 

And this one is for southsider2k5:

 

And this one is for wite:

 

And this one is for KyYlE and I to share:

[greg775]

Robin pissed me off when he ran out of pitchers in a tie game. But one generally can't blame any of the bullpen decisions on him. He has absolutely no closer but the team does have some saves in spite of that.

He has a horrific pitching staff and that's going to make any manager look bad.

 

I worship Ozzie, but he had to go because of his mouth. Or Kenny had to go. They couldn't co-exist. I am of the opinion we don't have a WS title if not for Ozzie, which I am forever grateful cause we ain't winning any more of them in this baseball economy.

 

Robin is OK. Not good. Not bad. His roster is what sucks.

[RockRaines]

I'll be honest, I quit reading right there. Ozzie got almost the exact same spate of complaints about how he handled pitchers and bullpens. He also got crucified for his "sunday line ups" and running needlessly with two outs.

Routinely called a poor in game manager, but hey, lets not ruin this horrific thread with actual facts.

[witesoxfan]

Is it Sunday?

 

https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/4822485...8474625/photo/1

 

You jest, but it's as good of a lineup as you could have against a lefty.

 

Robin pissed me off when he ran out of pitchers in a tie game. But one generally can't blame any of the bullpen decisions on him. He has absolutely no closer but the team does have some saves in spite of that.

He has a horrific pitching staff and that's going to make any manager look bad.

 

I worship Ozzie, but he had to go because of his mouth. Or Kenny had to go. They couldn't co-exist. I am of the opinion we don't have a WS title if not for Ozzie, which I am forever grateful cause we ain't winning any more of them in this baseball economy.

 

Robin is OK. Not good. Not bad. His roster is what sucks.

I said it then and I'll say it again, had he managed that game to ensure he had pitchers in the 14th inning, he surely would have lost the game much sooner.

 

Ventura has struggled at times with managing his bullpen, but his bullpen has let him down on multiple occasions and it's gotten to the point where it's damn near impossible to trust any of them.

[Reddy]

I truly think it's hilarious that there are people on here freaking out about our performance this year.

 

At what point did any of us think this was ANYTHING other than a rebuilding year where we'd be lucky to be at .500?

 

How dare Robin lead a team that's playing exactly to expectations!?!?!

[GreenSox]

Ventura's incompetent, but you may have to fire cooper too, unless he'd be happy going back to just being pitching coach.

I suspect he's shadow manager.

[Paul R]

At the end of last year.

[Boopa1219]

I think Robin has done a terrific job as manager and that the futility of the team makes him look worse than he is as a manager, which makes him under rated in my opinion. The White Sox are going through a rebuilding phase and I think Robin is the right manager to guide the team through it, and I think he'll be the manager when the team is ready to compete.