When do you fire Robin?

[Dick Allen]

Let's say you have a fiance and you're unsure about her....wavering back and forth.

 

You have two hypothetical choices. You either marry her today or you never see her again for the rest of your life. If you can't imagine your future without her, then the choice is clear.

 

I think nearly everyone wants to see what this White Sox team looks like in 3 years with Hahn given a free reign to make decisions as he sees fit. On the other hand, I don't think more than a few would be overly upset if Robin Ventura wasn't around to manage that 2017 team.

 

Granted, we've seen 1 more season of Ventura as manager than Hahn as GM, but we should be very familiar with him from all the time he was the most highly-paid Assistant GM in all of baseball.

I really don't think Hahn or anyone with the White Sox really care what Soxtalk thinks about Ventura's managing. Besides, many of the managers here had Daniel Webb as the closer. Evidence suggests that, for now, looks pretty dumb, and they would have been calling for their own heads.

 

There are 2 guys in the bullpen that have been totally reliable. Putnam and Petricka. Petricka has been used a lot, even Hawk is saying they need to tone down his usage. If those are your only reliable guys, inserting any reliever is bound to blow up in your face fairly often. And the Monday Morning QB's will always be ready to say just how dumb Robin is, just after disaster strikes.

 

It still boggles my mind how many people think Cooper plays zero role in pitcher usage. He clearly does, and should be critiqued as well.

[Eminor3rd]

How does this poll apply?

 

Seriously, Ventura's here as long as he wants to be. Especially if they trade Alexei Ramirez, Beckham, Viciedo, etc.

 

That gives him through the 2016 season, at a bare minimum, because you're not realistically expecting to compete anymore in 2015 simply because the free agents out there don't really fill our needs (Sandoval, Headley) or they will be prohibitively expensive (Hanley Ramirez, Scherzer, Lester, Shields, etc.) and the hitting prospects we have at AA or AAA aren't expected to be All-Star caliber players.

 

You essentially only have one significant trade chip in Alexei Ramirez. The rest of the changes are going to come from spending in free agency, and that's not the White Sox style.

 

Unless they hit a home run on every single "minor" trade like Beckham, Viciedo, DeAza, Dunn, Putnam, Belisario, etc., it's too big of a hill to climb. They can't move John Danks. The reality of the situation is that Hahn has to get a bounty from a Ramirez trade and pray to god that Rodon's a stud instead of another Andruw Miller.

 

[caulfield12]

Still amazed that some folks havent figured out this is a rebuild.

 

 

But it's not...simply because the majority of the talent's going to have to come from other organizations, it's nothing like what the Cubs are doing.

 

They're telling fans to wait for 5-6 years (this is year 4 and they won't even bring up Kris until June, 2015) for Bryant, Baez, Rizzo, Castro, Soler and Almora to take the National League Central by storm.

 

It's a restructing of the roster, but it's still more of a "win now" mode due to the presence already of Sale/Abreu/Quintana...if it was a true rebuild, they'd start completely over instead of having those three building blocks all in their primes. And they would have waited pulling the trigger on someone like Tanaka because they wouldn't want to waste the best 2-3 years of his big league career on non-contending/rebuilding/restructuring teams.

Edited June 26, 2014 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

I really don't think Hahn or anyone with the White Sox really care what Soxtalk thinks about Ventura's managing. Besides, many of the managers here had Daniel Webb as the closer. Evidence suggests that, for now, looks pretty dumb, and they would have been calling for their own heads.

 

There are 2 guys in the bullpen that have been totally reliable. Putnam and Petricka. Petricka has been used a lot, even Hawk is saying they need to tone down his usage. If those are your only reliable guys, inserting any reliever is bound to blow up in your face fairly often. And the Monday Morning QB's will always be ready to say just how dumb Robin is, just after disaster strikes.

 

It still boggles my mind how many people think Cooper plays zero role in pitcher usage. He clearly does, and should be critiqued as well.

 

I agree that Cooper is overrated and goes without criticism far too often, but I really don't want anyone else acting as pitching coach.

[Kyyle23]

How does this poll apply?

 

The poll is asking your opinion on when Robin should be evaluated/fired. It applies because that is the topic that the OP presented.

 

You are creating alternate scenarios that have nothing to do with the poll

[Dick Allen]

I agree that Cooper is overrated and goes without criticism far too often, but I really don't want anyone else acting as pitching coach.

I'm not saying get a new pitching coach, but if you are going to rip Robin for pitching changes, or having a guy go a little longer than you would like, people should know Cooper is part of the decision.

[caulfield12]

 

 

Why talk about something that will never in a million billion trillion quadrillion years happen???

 

If they do want to move on without Robin at some point, it won't be announced as a firing anyway. He'll move to a different position in the organization or there will be some type of pr spinmeister press release covering Robin's pride and demonstrating the never-ending patience and loyalty of JR.

[Kyyle23]

Why talk about something that will never in a million billion trillion quadrillion years happen???If they do want to move on without Robin at some point, it won't be announced as a firing anyway. He'll move to a different position in the organization or there will be some type of pr spinmeister press release covering Robin's pride and demonstrating the never-ending patience and loyalty of JR.

 

Now this is hilarious coming from you

[RockRaines]

But it's not...simply because the majority of the talent's going to have to come from other organizations, it's nothing like what the Cubs are doing.

 

They're telling fans to wait for 5-6 years (this is year 4 and they won't even bring up Kris until June, 2015) for Bryant, Baez, Rizzo, Castro, Soler and Almora to take the National League Central by storm.

 

It's a restructing of the roster, but it's still more of a "win now" mode due to the presence already of Sale/Abreu/Quintana...if it was a true rebuild, they'd start completely over instead of having those three building blocks all in their primes. And they would have waited pulling the trigger on someone like Tanaka because they wouldn't want to waste the best 2-3 years of his big league career on non-contending/rebuilding/restructuring teams.

Yes it is. This is a rebuild.

[caulfield12]

I'm not saying get a new pitching coach, but if you are going to rip Robin for pitching changes, or having a guy go a little longer than you would like, people should know Cooper is part of the decision.

 

If Robin is really that comfortable putting the game in the hands of Don Cooper, then why does he want to be manager in the first place?

 

Eventually, he's going to have a Harry Truman/General Douglas McArthur moment where he realizes the two of them can't co-exist unless he wants to be totally emasculated as a manager.

 

As far as Cooper goes, Noesi/Putnam/Petricka are all wins for him. Did anyone expect much out of Danks again, for example lower than a 4.00 ERA? If you're going to blame him for Scott Downs, Erik Johnson or Daniel Webb, then we might as well blame Jeff Manto for Keppinger.

[hogan873]

But it's not...simply because the majority of the talent's going to have to come from other organizations, it's nothing like what the Cubs are doing.

 

They're telling fans to wait for 5-6 years (this is year 4 and they won't even bring up Kris until June, 2015) for Bryant, Baez, Rizzo, Castro, Soler and Almora to take the National League Central by storm.

 

It's a restructing of the roster, but it's still more of a "win now" mode due to the presence already of Sale/Abreu/Quintana...if it was a true rebuild, they'd start completely over instead of having those three building blocks all in their primes. And they would have waited pulling the trigger on someone like Tanaka because they wouldn't want to waste the best 2-3 years of his big league career on non-contending/rebuilding/restructuring teams.

Now this makes no sense. Call it a rebuild (which it is) or a restructuring, they're not in a "win now" mode. Why would any team get rid of everyone to rebuild? Three players do not a championship team make. Besides, these are guys who are young and cost-controlled (in relation to their performance). Your way of thinking (at least in this argument) is that if a guy is good, trade him for prospects now even though the guy could be around for years.

[Eminor3rd]

But it's not...simply because the majority of the talent's going to have to come from other organizations, it's nothing like what the Cubs are doing.

 

They're telling fans to wait for 5-6 years (this is year 4 and they won't even bring up Kris until June, 2015) for Bryant, Baez, Rizzo, Castro, Soler and Almora to take the National League Central by storm.

 

It's a restructing of the roster, but it's still more of a "win now" mode due to the presence already of Sale/Abreu/Quintana...if it was a true rebuild, they'd start completely over instead of having those three building blocks all in their primes. And they would have waited pulling the trigger on someone like Tanaka because they wouldn't want to waste the best 2-3 years of his big league career on non-contending/rebuilding/restructuring teams.

 

It can be a rebuild and NOT be what the Cubs are doing.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

We're rebuilding. Just a quicker way than the Cubs

[Eminor3rd]

Why talk about something that will never in a million billion trillion quadrillion years happen???

 

If they do want to move on without Robin at some point, it won't be announced as a firing anyway. He'll move to a different position in the organization or there will be some type of pr spinmeister press release covering Robin's pride and demonstrating the never-ending patience and loyalty of JR.

 

I just have NO idea what you're talking about.

 

What is the thing that won't ever happen? Why do we have to choose between Ventura or Hahn today for the rest of our lives? What did you ask the poll was related to the thread topic?

[BlackSox13]

It can be a rebuild and NOT be what the Cubs are doing.

Yup. I think the depth of the cubs rebuild is deeper than the Sox. Hendry just tore that organization all to hell.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I agree that Cooper is overrated and goes without criticism far too often, but I really don't want anyone else acting as pitching coach.

OH

 

NO

 

YOU

 

f***IN

 

DIDNT

[witesoxfan]

Haha. People talk about him like he's done as much as guys like Mazzone and Duncan and he clearly hasn't. He's a very good pitching coach who's done a lot for the organization and knows what he's doing, but he's not without fault.

[flavum]

When it comes to Cooper, I think he's great with the mechanics of teaching pitchers, and adding pitches to a repertoire...and instilling confidence.

 

But I don't want him deciding to "bring in this guy/take this guy out", all of the time.

 

He should give Robin information going into the game, and the manager should make decisions during the game. If Coop is pulling all of the strings during the game, that's just bad for the team.

[ptatc]

I think a better manager manages a bullpen better, but you can only do so much with the talent on hand, and this wouldn't be a good bullpen at this point even with someone else on hand.

Not to mention that you're #1 and #2 bullpen guys at the beginning of the year are out. Many bullpens will fail when you lose two of the best members.

[The Ultimate Champion]

If Robin is really that comfortable putting the game in the hands of Don Cooper, then why does he want to be manager in the first place?

 

Eventually, he's going to have a Harry Truman/General Douglas McArthur moment where he realizes the two of them can't co-exist unless he wants to be totally emasculated as a manager.

 

As far as Cooper goes, Noesi/Putnam/Petricka are all wins for him. Did anyone expect much out of Danks again, for example lower than a 4.00 ERA? If you're going to blame him for Scott Downs, Erik Johnson or Daniel Webb, then we might as well blame Jeff Manto for Keppinger.

Coop has, as always, done a terrific job.

 

Erik Johnson may need a new brain. Downs, that's the game you always play with vet relievers. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose(*edited for f***up). Kudos to Hahn for getting the 1 year deal with an option he could get out of. Daniel Webb will need to not walk the world. He rose quickly through our system and right now as a somewhat useful MLB reliever with the potential to be a lot more, I'd say you don't count him as a miss at all.

 

Robin is just dumb. Shift the f*** out of the IF, forget completely about the OF. Why is the 3B in right there? Don't trust this guy at all, trust that guy way too much. Go with the lefty who sucks instead of the righty that gets the job done. When you going to get the pen going, never? This guy is a s*** manager, it's like he's a fan watching the game and then making moves after everything else happens. Like he's behind the thinking process of the opposing manager and even behind the thought process of the announcers both on TV and over the radio also which is absof***inglutely embarrassing. The guy may have been a great player and leader but he's a s*** manager. You're supposed to be ahead of what is happening out there. This guy makes Ozzie look like a brilliant game manager.

 

And Jesus, I'm always one of the first here to point to the job of a manager as being 1) clubhouse first and lead there, making sure players don't get too high or low and egos are in check, and the personal life stuff is sorted out, 2) media and other stuff second, keeping distractions out of the clubhouse, 3) allowing the GM to operate and get his message across without having to be in the clubhouse or having to have some sort of player relationship, and 4) then comes the in-game stuff. But Robin, even as good as he may be at the first three (and we really wouldn't know for sure how good he is there anyway) is sooo f***ing bad at managing a baseball game that like, f*** the first three, get this guy out of here.

Edited June 26, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[The Ultimate Champion]

Haha. People talk about him like he's done as much as guys like Mazzone and Duncan and he clearly hasn't. He's a very good pitching coach who's done a lot for the organization and knows what he's doing, but he's not without fault.

He's so far in the black that when he takes a slight loss in this or that aspect/area you almost overlook it completely.

[The Ultimate Champion]

BTW greatest Rpobin f***up moments: I'll start with the 2012 game he blew something like a 6-run lead in the 9th by going with a s***ty "get his work in" player and then forgetting to get his pen ready, and then bringing in guy after guy cold until the lead was gone. I think they lost that one in extras. Also constantly refusing to trust Q in his rookie season and having Reed blow like 2 games that should have been CGs. This guy is terrible, I hoped he would develop as a manager, clearly not.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

BTW greatest Rpobin f***up moments: I'll start with the 2012 game he blew something like a 6-run lead in the 9th by going with a s***ty "get his work in" player and then forgetting to get his pen ready, and then bringing in guy after guy cold until the lead was gone. I think they lost that one in extras. Also constantly refusing to trust Q in his rookie season and having Reed blow like 2 games that should have been CGs. This guy is terrible, I hoped he would develop as a manager, clearly not.

 

And if he leaves Quintana in and he blows it, you get people asking why he left the starter in so long, especially a rookie starter. It's not like we don't already hear that with Sale.

 

Robin is in a no win situation, as all baseball managers are.

[flavum]

I think defining a bad baseball manager is like defining pornography....I can't define it in words, but I know it when I see it.

 

Robin Ventura is a terrible manager. It's just going to take time to work itself out...like a few years.

[kitekrazy]

I haven't watched a Sox game the whole year but by looking at things on paper my guess is that the bullpen totally sucks.