When do you fire Robin?

[southsider2k5]

Of course not. I don't even think it's 2015 unless everything goes right.

 

I'm just tired of the Sox having excuses, because they always have them. What year starts the clock on "no excuses, it's time to win"?

 

What year does Robin take an 85-win talent team, and make them an 88-win team because he's a good manager?

 

It's called rebuilding. Pretty much the entire fanbase wanted exactly that. Now that is being held against the organization?

[Kyyle23]

Of course not. I don't even think it's 2015 unless everything goes right.

 

I'm just tired of the Sox having excuses, because they always have them. What year starts the clock on "no excuses, it's time to win"?

 

What year does Robin take an 85-win talent team, and make them an 88-win team because he's a good manager?

 

i think we would really need to see an 85 win talent team on the field before we can start the clock. Hopefully that comes in 2015.

 

I dont excuse Robin for bad decisions. But I think his bad decisions get lumped in with the "it doesnt matter which guy came in, they all sucked" into one big bag that everyone likes to kick around, and I dont think they are the same thing.

 

I mean, greg775 still doesnt excuse Robin for running out of pitchers. Anyone that watched that game would know that Robin threw in every pitcher because literally NONE of them could get an out, and all of them put runners on base. I cant fault Robin for that.

[flavum]

It's called rebuilding. Pretty much the entire fanbase wanted exactly that. Now that is being held against the organization?

 

You're missing the point.

 

It's amazing how many Sox apologists are on this board. Nothing the Sox do can be wrong.

 

Again---what year do the training wheels come off (yes, I know this will take a couple years), and excuses and bad managers can't be an excuse? 2016? 2017? Or will it just be--blame a couple bullpen arms---oh well---4th and 5th in the division again...try next year.

[southsider2k5]

You're missing the point.

 

It's amazing how many Sox apologists are on this board. Nothing the Sox do can be wrong.

 

Again---what year do the training wheels come off (yes, I know this will take a couple years), and excuses and bad managers can't be an excuse? 2016? 2017? Or will it just be--blame a couple bullpen arms---oh well---4th and 5th in the division again...try next year.

 

Welcome to rebuilding.

 

Odds are we are talking 2015 or 2016 at the earliest. You can stomp your feet all you want, but at the end of the day, this is a team that is reshaping its roster. We are probably lucky that we didn't trade everyone and make this at least a half of a decade process instead of 2-3 years.

[TitoMB345]

Soon, please. Let's get a real manager so we can stop wasting Sale's years.

[BlackSox13]

Let's put it this way. Robin doesn't always manage well and Robin does not have the most talent to work with and the injuries are not his fault either. You can't polish a turd.

 

Between Robin making dumb decisions, injuries, a lack of quality starting pitching for the two rotation holes and a severe lack of bullpen options along with the projects that haven't worked, I'm surprised the Sox don't have the worst record in baseball.

[Kyyle23]

Soon, please. Let's get a real manager so we can stop wasting Sale's years.

 

A real manager this season would have somehow avoided wasting this season? Or last?

[caulfield12]

You're missing the point.

 

It's amazing how many Sox apologists are on this board. Nothing the Sox do can be wrong.

 

Again---what year do the training wheels come off (yes, I know this will take a couple years), and excuses and bad managers can't be an excuse? 2016? 2017? Or will it just be--blame a couple bullpen arms---oh well---4th and 5th in the division again...try next year.

 

We still wouldn't be expected to compete this season with Tanaka AND Abreu.

 

Next year, it will be...

 

1) Avisail needs a year of recovery time before we can expect quality results

2) No point to spend money on a veteran closer unless you're legitimately within sight of an 85 win team

3) Replacing Beckham/Ramirez up the middle with XYZ player...it will take at least 1-2 years for them to gel as a DP combination and get their feet wet offensively as well

4) It's hard to stick a new catcher out there on the field again and start over (unless it's the 2005 Sox) with a new pitching staff...he'll (whoever replaces Flowers) need at least half a season, especially if he's coming from the NL or AA/AAA

5) LH power hitting and Tier B veteran starting pitching was too expensive on the FA market...we just missed out on a couple of our targets, but we're saving our bullets for 2016 (see Cubs' philosophy)

6) Just wait until Anderson, Hawkins and Montas make an impact, then things will really start to change

7) Lowered attendance and lost sponsorship revenues are limiting payroll....

8) White Sox won't get to take advantage of huge media deals like many teams have received in the last 2-3 years

9) We can't expect the errors/fundamentals/baserunning to get cleaned up until we start over with all younger, homegrown players....and get rid of DeAza, Viciedo and Ramirez

Edited June 26, 2014 by caulfield12

[flavum]

Welcome to rebuilding.

 

Odds are we are talking 2015 or 2016 at the earliest. You can stomp your feet all you want, but at the end of the day, this is a team that is reshaping its roster. We are probably lucky that we didn't trade everyone and make this at least a half of a decade process instead of 2-3 years.

 

I know what the Sox are doing.

 

I approve of what the Sox are doing.

 

Do...you...understand...that?

[southsider2k5]

I know what the Sox are doing.

 

I approve of what the Sox are doing.

 

Do...you...understand...that?

 

So you grasp all of that, but are still looking to light the torches... Um, OK. That makes no sense at all.

[elrockinMT]

Done. Dont bring up the camel ever again

 

 

What's wrong with a cigarette?

[Dick Allen]

If you ever read a gamethread, this is at least a 125 win team if managed correctly.

[caulfield12]

If you ever read a gamethread, this is at least a 125 win team if managed correctly.

 

 

More like a 125 loss team according to soxfest and greg, lol.

[The Ultimate Champion]

So you grasp all of that, but are still looking to light the torches... Um, OK. That makes no sense at all.

The larger point you are glossing over is that there are other options to lead this thing. It's not as though rebuilding efforts can only prove successful if they occur under the managerial genius of Robin Ventura.

 

If the FO wants to half-ass the managerial part of the product while it is going through changes then whatever, that's their choice, but I think it's unnecessay.

 

I think the best thing (for Robin) that anyone can reasonably say is that he should be re-evaluated after the season. This is his 3rd year and if by the end of Year 3 it's still "what you see is what you get" then that isn't going to cut it.

[ptatc]

BTW greatest Rpobin f***up moments: I'll start with the 2012 game he blew something like a 6-run lead in the 9th by going with a s***ty "get his work in" player and then forgetting to get his pen ready, and then bringing in guy after guy cold until the lead was gone. I think they lost that one in extras. Also constantly refusing to trust Q in his rookie season and having Reed blow like 2 games that should have been CGs. This guy is terrible, I hoped he would develop as a manager, clearly not.

There isn't a single manager in the game that hasn't had the same thing. Look at the Minnesota message boards. Most of the fans have been calling for Gardenhire's head for the last two years for many of the same complaints. I consider him a pretty good manger as well. All mangers blow games. you just need to look at positives and negatives.

[Soxfest]

Robin makes the same mistakes now that he did day 1 on the job. Robin is fine for now, but when Sox improve to take next step he has to go.

[RockRaines]

So let me ask you this-- what year starts the "no excuses, it's time to win a division or a wildcard spot"?

 

And I'm not saying Sale and Abreu get injured and we still expect to win. I'm saying the Sox could lose Jones and Lindstrom in the same year, and the Sox would have reserves.

 

What's the time frame for no excuses?

Zero excuses? 2-3 years

[flavum]

Zero excuses? 2-3 years

 

Thank you.

[ptatc]

The larger point you are glossing over is that there are other options to lead this thing. It's not as though rebuilding efforts can only prove successful if they occur under the managerial genius of Robin Ventura.

 

If the FO wants to half-ass the managerial part of the product while it is going through changes then whatever, that's their choice, but I think it's unnecessay.

 

I think the best thing (for Robin) that anyone can reasonably say is that he should be re-evaluated after the season. This is his 3rd year and if by the end of Year 3 it's still "what you see is what you get" then that isn't going to cut it.

Do you want Robin to turn into Thibs where he only pitches 2/3 of the staff? Baseball is 162 games everyone needs to see the field otherwise everyone else breaks down. The bullpen cannot throw strikes and what is he supposed to do about it.? Over work the starters? People are trying to fire him for that too.

[Chisoxfn]

Ventura seems to be great at managing the people aspects of the game. I don't care who you are, with this bullpen, you aren't winning. I think you look at how he handles the clubhouse and develops players and then evaluate things at the end of the season. If you think he needs some help on the X's and O's, then you hire a better bench coach. I certainly don't see any reason why he should be fired this year.

[BigEdWalsh]

If you ever read a gamethread, this is at least a 125 win team if managed correctly.

More like an undefeated team.

I went with the last choice on the poll though I do think that a re-evaluation should happen at the end of the year too. That should almost always happen.

[southsider2k5]

The larger point you are glossing over is that there are other options to lead this thing. It's not as though rebuilding efforts can only prove successful if they occur under the managerial genius of Robin Ventura.

 

If the FO wants to half-ass the managerial part of the product while it is going through changes then whatever, that's their choice, but I think it's unnecessay.

 

I think the best thing (for Robin) that anyone can reasonably say is that he should be re-evaluated after the season. This is his 3rd year and if by the end of Year 3 it's still "what you see is what you get" then that isn't going to cut it.

 

You could bring the worlds best manager in here, and we are still looking at a .500ish team. Honestly, I think the fact that this team has been competitive this year despite the rash of injuries and a couple of key prospect failures supports Ventura as opposed to working against him. It is easy to get into the minutia for any manager and make them look bad. Big picture? The Sox have seen their pre-season starting LF, CF, 3B, 2B, 1B, #1 starter, #2 starter, closer, top set up man, etc all spend time on the DL this year. They have seen a couple of other key players just fail. With all of this, the Sox could have the Cubs record, and it wouldn't have surprised me.

 

If you want to measure the manager, measure him on the quality of the team as it relates to how potentially good they could be. This was never going to be a squad that would make the playoffs, why measure them that way?

[chitownsportsfan]

You could bring the worlds best manager in here, and we are still looking at a .500ish team. Honestly, I think the fact that this team has been competitive this year despite the rash of injuries and a couple of key prospect failures supports Ventura as opposed to working against him. It is easy to get into the minutia for any manager and make them look bad. Big picture? The Sox have seen their pre-season starting LF, CF, 3B, 2B, 1B, #1 starter, #2 starter, closer, top set up man, etc all spend time on the DL this year. They have seen a couple of other key players just fail. With all of this, the Sox could have the Cubs record, and it wouldn't have surprised me.

 

If you want to measure the manager, measure him on the quality of the team as it relates to how potentially good they could be. This was never going to be a squad that would make the playoffs, why measure them that way?

 

My problem with Ventura is that we are seeing the exact same mental mistakes in the field and on the basepaths as last year. Throw in his at times puzzling bullpen decisions (granted he has s*** to work with) and I don't really think he's the man we want when we have a decent team again.

 

IMO his only real strength is that he keeps things in the clubhouse and deals well with the media. His tactics often leave me scratching my head and some of his decisions have led directly to losses. Running out of pitchers earlier in the year was a pretty bad sin. That's just not something that can happen in your 3rd year managing.

[southsider2k5]

My problem with Ventura is that we are seeing the exact same mental mistakes in the field and on the basepaths as last year. Throw in his at times puzzling bullpen decisions (granted he has s*** to work with) and I don't really think he's the man we want when we have a decent team again.

 

IMO his only real strength is that he keeps things in the clubhouse and deals well with the media. His tactics often leave me scratching my head and some of his decisions have led directly to losses. Running out of pitchers earlier in the year was a pretty bad sin. That's just not something that can happen in your 3rd year managing.

 

I think this year has been better than last year, except for a couple of the more stupid players.

 

In general, when your pen sucks, there isn't much to manage. For much of the season, he has been arms short out there, and relying on minor leaguers and DFA's to do jobs that they shouldn't be doing. It is like asking a world class sprinter to run a marathon. They just aren't that good.

 

The other side of the coin is that when play are made, everyone forgets about them. That's why it seems so unbalanced. If you don't believe me, pick another team, and watch what their fans say about them. Every single manager in baseball does incredibly stupid and obvious things, according to their own fans.

[Vance Law]

If Ozzie Guillen got 8 seasons, Ventura deserves 20.