When do you fire Robin?

[GreenSox]

So when Robin makes a good decision, he gets zero credit because it was so obvious. Gotcha.

He's paid to make the correct decision.

The night before, when the object was merely to get on base - nothing more - he made a poor decision letting Garcia bat.

Even last night was nothing more than a push for him, clearly over-extending Danks.

[southsider2k5]

Is no one going to mention that the pen went 7 innings the night before? That includes Webb, Belasario, and Petricka each going 2 innings. If a reliever came in an inning or two earlier, and still served up the lead (because we all know the pen has sucked this year), how would people have felt if we ended up in a long extra inning game again with either running out of pitchers, or pitchers who had been extended because of the doubleheader the day before?

 

The guys who didn't pitch the day prior were Putnam, Rienzo, and Surkamp.

[2nd_city_saint787]

He's paid to make the correct decision.

The night before, when the object was merely to get on base - nothing more - he made a poor decision letting Garcia bat.

Even last night was nothing more than a push for him, clearly over-extending Danks.

 

 

Dude had just struck out the best hitter in baseball 2 batters before the HR....I don't think you could say they "Clearly over-extended him".

[2nd_city_saint787]

Is no one going to mention that the pen went 7 innings the night before? That includes Webb, Belasario, and Petricka each going 2 innings. If a reliever came in an inning or two earlier, and still served up the lead (because we all know the pen has sucked this year), how would people have felt if we ended up in a long extra inning game again with either running out of pitchers, or pitchers who had been extended because of the doubleheader the day before?

 

The guys who didn't pitch the day prior were Putnam, Rienzo, and Surkamp.

 

Another fine point.... and to quote the great Don Cooper “I don’t give a (bleep) what our pitch count is right now. I want you to go out and give us a chance to win the (bleeping) game."

[GreenSox]

Nobody on this rebuilding team should be throwing 120 pitches.

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

Nobody on this rebuilding team should be throwing 120 pitches.

 

"But this pitch count thing, we’re in the American League," Cooper said. "We’re not in Little League. But nevertheless, people that bring up pitch counts are people who have nothing else to really know. And it just blows me away. They’re doing that to say, ‘God forbid if someone goes down, I told you so.’ And these are people that are not in the arena and never really played, so what kind of validity does any of that hold?

[BlackSox13]

I think with pitch counts its about unnecessary wear and tear on a young pitcher who is pitching for a rebuilding team. The harder you work the longer its going to take to recover, don't get enough time to recover the body becomes susceptible to injury.

[GreenSox]

"But this pitch count thing, we’re in the American League," Cooper said. "We’re not in Little League. But nevertheless, people that bring up pitch counts are people who have nothing else to really know. And it just blows me away. They’re doing that to say, ‘God forbid if someone goes down, I told you so.’ And these are people that are not in the arena and never really played, so what kind of validity does any of that hold?

If it's just yappers not in the game questioning it, we should see a lot of 120 pitch counts on below .500 noncontenders.

But we don't.

Danks struggled in the 7th; he shouldn't have been out in the 8th at all. The pen is reasonably fresh and has pitched well, despite its 9th inning struggles.

[southsider2k5]

If it's just yappers not in the game questioning it, we should see a lot of 120 pitch counts on below .500 noncontenders.

But we don't.

Danks struggled in the 7th; he shouldn't have been out in the 8th at all. The pen is reasonably fresh and has pitched well, despite its 9th inning struggles.

 

Not true, and not true.

 

Again, we just had three of our guys go multiple innings the day before, and another pitch one inning. The only rested guys we had were Putnam, Surkamp, and Rienzo. Exactly one of those guys is an experienced reliever. If we go extras, instead of extending the starter who has gone 120 pitches before, we are extended relievers who just pitched multiple innings the day before.

 

The decision isn't as obvious as it is being made out to be. It isn't just about Danks pitch count.

[Dick Allen]

Robin is also an idiot when he takes Danks out of the game and the bullpen blows it. Hindsight is great if you want to take pot shots at people about subjects you know very little about.

[2nd_city_saint787]

If it's just yappers not in the game questioning it, we should see a lot of 120 pitch counts on below .500 noncontenders.

But we don't.

Danks struggled in the 7th; he shouldn't have been out in the 8th at all. The pen is reasonably fresh and has pitched well, despite its 9th inning struggles.

 

As SS2K pointed out the pen just pitched 7 innings the day before, so they werent really "resonably fresh"

 

Danks gave up a HR and retired the 3 other batters (K/GO/FB) he faced in the 7th, I wouldn't really say he struggled, he gave up a HR which is what DAnks is prone to do....Again he struck out Trout just 2 batters before the 2nd HR, if he had "nothing left" he wouldn't have struck out Trout.

 

 

[hogan873]

Robin is also an idiot when he takes Danks out of the game and the bullpen blows it. Hindsight is great if you want to take pot shots at people about subjects you know very little about.

So true. It's easy to play 10th inning manager and question everything once the game is over or after the lead is blown. Every single major league manager makes mistakes, but more often than not it's the player(s) that make the mistakes that cost the game or blow the lead. Danks threw meatballs to two consecutive hitters. He got lucky with Pujols. Not so much with Hamilton. Ask John Danks whose fault it was. He'll point at himself because he knows he threw the pitch. The problem is that if he gave up the homerun on the 120th pitch or the 90th pitch, the reaction would be the same from too many fans: It was Robin's fault.

[caulfield12]

Leaving Carroll to continue the night before when the lead was finally down to 1 was far worse than leaving Danks in...that totally took the wind out of the comeback sails when the Angels inevitably tacked on another run.

 

Harrelson, Farmer and DJ were all questioning that move before the inning even started and went south.

 

How can the worst pitcher on your big league roster be the best option there?

Edited July 3, 2014 by caulfield12

[kitekrazy]

"But this pitch count thing, we’re in the American League," Cooper said. "We’re not in Little League. But nevertheless, people that bring up pitch counts are people who have nothing else to really know. And it just blows me away. They’re doing that to say, ‘God forbid if someone goes down, I told you so.’ And these are people that are not in the arena and never really played, so what kind of validity does any of that hold?

 

This is Coop's way of saying the bullpen sucks.

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

This is Coop's way of saying the bullpen sucks.

 

Quote was from 2012 FYI...Just pointing out Coops, who I really think runs the pitching staff, view on pitch counts....That's not his only quote from him on that subject either...Coop gives no (bleep) about pitch counts.

[caulfield12]

Quote was from 2012 FYI...Just pointing out Coops, who I really think runs the pitching staff, view on pitch counts....That's not his only quote from him on that subject either...Coop gives no (bleep) about pitch counts.

 

 

Except I'm sure they do think about it when managing Sale...they have no choice with "instant reaction" media that puts Rodon, Japanese hurlers and U.S. high school pitchers in the national headlines instantly after a single start...but they probably think about it less than we do here on the message boards.

[elrockinMT]

Robin is also an idiot when he takes Danks out of the game and the bullpen blows it. Hindsight is great if you want to take pot shots at people about subjects you know very little about.

 

 

I am also surprised they didn't call for trading Beckham and Ramirez

[Dick Allen]

Quote was from 2012 FYI...Just pointing out Coops, who I really think runs the pitching staff, view on pitch counts....That's not his only quote from him on that subject either...Coop gives no (bleep) about pitch counts.

It really is crazy people actually believe everything they don't agree with is all Robin. No one has a say about anything. Robin is clearly running the pitchers into the ground and there is nothing Coop or Hahn or KW or JR can do about it. They are all afraid of big, bad, dumb Robin. They gave him an extension out of fear he may hurt them apparently even though many experts on this board told us Robin doesn't even want to manage.

 

I wish people would once in a while just think about things logically before they come to all of these crazy conclusions. Supposedly Robin's lack of experience was a reason he shouldn't manage, yet all of the inexperienced managers here manage every game perfectly.

[caulfield12]

It really is crazy people actually believe everything they don't agree with is all Robin. No one has a say about anything. Robin is clearly running the pitchers into the ground and there is nothing Coop or Hahn or KW or JR can do about it. They are all afraid of big, bad, dumb Robin. They gave him an extension out of fear he may hurt them apparently even though many experts on this board told us Robin doesn't even want to manage.

 

I wish people would once in a while just think about things logically before they come to all of these crazy conclusions. Supposedly Robin's lack of experience was a reason he shouldn't manage, yet all of the inexperienced managers here manage every game perfectly.

 

 

At a certain point, it doesn't matter...fans buy into the "Robin was just hired to take the heat off KW/JR and they can't blame him too much because, hey, he didn't have any experience so what's the worst that could happen...he's a placeholder like Jerry Manuel or Jeff Torborg to get us to the next manager, etc."

 

The perception around baseball from those announcers for other teams is that the White Sox don't play solid/fundamental baseball, they beat themselves too often with mental and physical errors and that while Ventura is a cool/nice/laid-back guy, he's not a manager they ever fear facing or one that will outmanage their own guy...or that he would be anywhere but in the bottom 5-10 out of 30 MLB managers in their own subjective evaluations.

 

Now that's not to say Terry Francona would have won the division in 2012 or he would have this year's team at .500 or better, but lots of casual White Sox fans do believe managers can make a difference, and they also feel the Sox aren't serious about winning until they invest a lot of money into a proven winner like a Francona or Maddon type.

 

It's why Guillen almost didn't get the job before 2004, with KW preferring Gaston's track record.

 

Another issue is that it's hard to compare Ventura with say, Matheny and Ausmus, because of the talent on the respective rosters. That said, it's now become much more popular for teams to hire managers with little or no experience....all these decisions are giving them cover to do the same thing, instead of going with retread guys who have been recycled over and over again.

Edited July 3, 2014 by caulfield12

[greg775]

"But this pitch count thing, we’re in the American League," Cooper said. "We’re not in Little League. But nevertheless, people that bring up pitch counts are people who have nothing else to really know. And it just blows me away. They’re doing that to say, ‘God forbid if someone goes down, I told you so.’ And these are people that are not in the arena and never really played, so what kind of validity does any of that hold?

 

Cooper is right, though it's always been that way and always will be that way regarding fans. Arm-chair quarterback is a term that is decades old. There's a lot of yapping going on from the gallery. That's why those guys get paid so much money, to put up with the second guessing. If the move works, we shut up. All a manager/coach can hope for is to shut up the fans. That means the team is playing well and the moves are working for the most part.

 

Pitch counts are pretty stupid to get worked up about. If a guy has a no hitter going, there's no such thing as a pitch count.

[Dick Allen]

At a certain point, it doesn't matter...fans buy into the "Robin was just hired to take the heat off KW/JR and they can't blame him too much because, hey, he didn't have any experience so what's the worst that could happen...he's a placeholder like Jerry Manuel or Jeff Torborg to get us to the next manager, etc."

 

The perception around baseball from those announcers for other teams is that the White Sox don't play solid/fundamental baseball, they beat themselves too often with mental and physical errors and that while Ventura is a cool/nice/laid-back guy, he's not a manager they ever fear facing or one that will outmanage their own guy...or that he would be anywhere but in the bottom 5-10 out of 30 MLB managers in their own subjective evaluations.

 

Now that's not to say Terry Francona would have won the division in 2012 or he would have this year's team at .500 or better, but lots of casual White Sox fans do believe managers can make a difference, and they also feel the Sox aren't serious about winning until they invest a lot of money into a proven winner like a Francona or Maddon type.

 

It's why Guillen almost didn't get the job before 2004, with KW preferring Gaston's track record.

 

Another issue is that it's hard to compare Ventura with say, Matheny and Ausmus, because of the talent on the respective rosters. That said, it's now become much more popular for teams to hire managers with little or no experience....all these decisions are giving them cover to do the same thing, instead of going with retread guys who have been recycled over and over again.

 

So you are saying major league teams fear playing teams based on their manager?

[hogan873]

Cooper is right, though it's always been that way and always will be that way regarding fans. Arm-chair quarterback is a term that is decades old. There's a lot of yapping going on from the gallery. That's why those guys get paid so much money, to put up with the second guessing. If the move works, we shut up. All a manager/coach can hope for is to shut up the fans. That means the team is playing well and the moves are working for the most part.

 

Pitch counts are pretty stupid to get worked up about. If a guy has a no hitter going, there's no such thing as a pitch count.

Absolutely. The only exception is when a guy goes into a game with a set pitch count from the get-go, like Sale's first start after the DL. Otherwise, he keeps going. I think Edwin Jackson threw over 150 pitches when he threw a no hitter.

[Kyyle23]

Absolutely. The only exception is when a guy goes into a game with a set pitch count from the get-go, like Sale's first start after the DL. Otherwise, he keeps going. I think Edwin Jackson threw over 150 pitches when he threw a no hitter.

 

he also walked an obscene number of guys, i think 8

[LittleHurt05]

Absolutely. The only exception is when a guy goes into a game with a set pitch count from the get-go, like Sale's first start after the DL. Otherwise, he keeps going. I think Edwin Jackson threw over 150 pitches when he threw a no hitter.

 

Johan Santana disagrees. He pitched a no-hitter on June 1, 2012. He threw 134 pitches after only making 3 starts with 100+ pitchers that year and taking 2011 off. He made 10 more starts in 2012 with an ERA of 8.26 and hasn't appeared in the majors since.

[southsider2k5]

Pitch counts matter when they greatly from that pitchers normal. Again, it is just like running a race. Just because a guy is a pitcher, doesn't mean he is ready to go 100 pitches. You have to be conditioned to go that far into a game. If you are a guy that comes out at 95-100 pitches, you won't be effective at 120 because you will fatigue and not keep your form. It is why you don't ask Usain Bolt to run the marathon, despite being the worlds "fastest man". The White Sox do condition their pitchers to go 120 pitches, which is why it isn't as big of a worry for me, except in exceptional situations.

 

John Danks has gotten deep into many games this year. He has highs of 115, 116, and 123 pitches this year. While on the higher end, it isn't out of his range of acceptable.