Closer? 'We don't really have one'

[southsider2k5]

ChiTribSports ‏@ChiTribSports 4m

 

Ventura on Sox closer: 'We don't really have one' http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/break...story?track=rss …

[Chicago White Sox]

I don't think so. I think it was planned for Jones to be the closer once Reed was traded.

Are you really arguing that Lindstrom wasn't the opening day closer? Not sure what I'm missing here.

[flavum]

Are you really arguing that Lindstrom wasn't the opening day closer? Not sure what I'm missing here.

 

I think the day Reed was traded, Jones was probably viewed as the closer for 2014.

 

Jones had physical problems in spring training, and obviously he ended up being injured and on the DL after two appearances.

[southsider2k5]

I think the day Reed was traded, Jones was probably viewed as the closer for 2014.

 

Jones had physical problems in spring training, and obviously he ended up being injured and on the DL after two appearances.

 

It is just an easy way to minimize what missing Nate Jones has meant to the 2014 bullpen.

[Balta1701]

Belisario has given up a sub .500 OPS in innings 6-8 and a .960 OPS in inning 9.

[ptatc]

Lol, and that's worked SO well so far.

 

Also, a tangent point, I really hate how the whole "defined roles are the only way anyone can perform" adage is treated like some law of physics. Why do we accept that these guys need to be coddled and handed excuses? Your name is called -- get guys out! That's it! Quit being a weiner and do your goddamn job.

 

The closer is the only guy who really has a predictable timetable anyway. Every other reliever could be called on at any time from the 6th to the end of the game depending upon matchups and how deep the starter goes. The "setup guy" probably gets the 8th inning in maybe 50% of the games, and that's only if he's the right handedness.

 

It's all a bunch of agent crap, IMO. RPs are supposed to go in and get batters out. Don't allow runs somewhere between 8:30 and 10:00 at night. Doesn't matter what inning it's in, and if you're so delicate that you can only perform if you can pinpoint the exact moment that you'll get your ten minutes of work in, then go back to the Bush League.

whether you think it or not it's reality. There is a big difference as to when to pitch. In the ninth there is no safety net, you pitch poorly the team loses. If you pitch in the 8th there is always a chance you can come back with offense.

 

Picture if you worked for an insurance company and you have auto clients. You mess up ona couple of bad policies and you lose a few thousand dollars. Now let's say you handle flood insurance in a coastal region and messed up the re-insurance when Katirna hit. Same job different pressure.

 

Pitchers also like defined role for the comfort and confidence. All players need this as it's a game of dealing with failures. when you are in a comfort zone it's easier to deal with these failures. Remember when Frank Thomas was blasted because he didn't want to screw up is pregame routine and the Sox wanted to change it to allow fans into batting practice early? All baseball players do this and need this.

 

whether you agree or not, this is the mentality of the MLB player. Now some rare ones are mentality strong enough not to deal with it. However, nearly all of them need this routine to be comfortable.

[ptatc]

Are you really arguing that Lindstrom wasn't the opening day closer? Not sure what I'm missing here.

I'm saying he wasn't the "planned" opening day closer. Jones was injured and that started the downward plan for the closer.

[ptatc]

Yeah, so be prepared to come in any time between the 6th and 9th. As long as that is the expectation, that is really not at all an unreasonable request.

 

Be prepared to get dudes out tonight when the starter needs help.

It is unreasonable to need to be prepared for an unknown every night. When do you start to warm up. Does everyone in the pen start warming up in the sixth inning? That would really wear everyone out pretty quickly in the season.

[Eminor3rd]

It is unreasonable to need to be prepared for an unknown every night. When do you start to warm up. Does everyone in the pen start warming up in the sixth inning? That would really wear everyone out pretty quickly in the season.

 

No, you warm up when they call to the bullpen and ask you to warm up.

[Eminor3rd]

whether you think it or not it's reality. There is a big difference as to when to pitch. In the ninth there is no safety net, you pitch poorly the team loses. If you pitch in the 8th there is always a chance you can come back with offense.

 

Picture if you worked for an insurance company and you have auto clients. You mess up ona couple of bad policies and you lose a few thousand dollars. Now let's say you handle flood insurance in a coastal region and messed up the re-insurance when Katirna hit. Same job different pressure.

 

Pitchers also like defined role for the comfort and confidence. All players need this as it's a game of dealing with failures. when you are in a comfort zone it's easier to deal with these failures. Remember when Frank Thomas was blasted because he didn't want to screw up is pregame routine and the Sox wanted to change it to allow fans into batting practice early? All baseball players do this and need this.

 

whether you agree or not, this is the mentality of the MLB player. Now some rare ones are mentality strong enough not to deal with it. However, nearly all of them need this routine to be comfortable.

 

How do you know this?

 

It's an excuse. None of us "needed" this in little league, High School, or American Legion when I played. We all did just fine.

[The Ultimate Champion]

whether you think it or not it's reality. There is a big difference as to when to pitch. In the ninth there is no safety net, you pitch poorly the team loses. If you pitch in the 8th there is always a chance you can come back with offense.

 

Picture if you worked for an insurance company and you have auto clients. You mess up ona couple of bad policies and you lose a few thousand dollars. Now let's say you handle flood insurance in a coastal region and messed up the re-insurance when Katirna hit. Same job different pressure.

 

Pitchers also like defined role for the comfort and confidence. All players need this as it's a game of dealing with failures. when you are in a comfort zone it's easier to deal with these failures. Remember when Frank Thomas was blasted because he didn't want to screw up is pregame routine and the Sox wanted to change it to allow fans into batting practice early? All baseball players do this and need this.

 

whether you agree or not, this is the mentality of the MLB player. Now some rare ones are mentality strong enough not to deal with it. However, nearly all of them need this routine to be comfortable.

Yeah I agree with all of this. So much of it is mental.

 

As a RP you don't really control much usually. Often you come in with men on you didn't allow and in a situation you had nothing to do with. And if you get to start a clean inning then great, but if you allow a baserunner your manager may pull you and you won't have a say in whether or not the run scores. Your manager or coaching staff as a whole may dictate what you throw and to who and in what sequence etc. You're expected to be sharp but you have to go out there not necessarily fully warm all the time and it really doesn't matter if you can't find the breaking ball because you're supposed to be capable of getting ahead with it 0-1 anyway.

 

There's just so much you don't control and so little room for error. Roles and routines have to be present for everything to go right. But like I said in another post, you really need to be a winning team to have set roles anyway. You can't really have a s***ty team and a great pen, maybe a roughly average team and a great pen, but you need to be able to bring in certain guys with leads to protect and you need to have a starting staff that keeps things in order, and usually you need a quality LR option as well. The Sox kind of have the misfortune of being a bad team with rotation holes (maybe just one now but it is a huge one) that is also loaded with relievers who can't reliably throw strikes, so things are not looking up.

 

I think what EMinor is saying though is definitely true in our case or in the case of any other team with a bad pen: since roles do not exist and can't really be established, each reliever is pretty much either "good" or "bad" judged in a vacuum, and the "good" ones need to pitch in really whatever situation because there are no other options, and the "bad" ones also have to be brought into whatever situation because there really are no other options.

 

Edited June 28, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[The Ultimate Champion]

How do you know this?

 

It's an excuse. None of us "needed" this in little league, High School, or American Legion when I played. We all did just fine.

When your role is "pitcher" and you are doing it for fun because you want to and you are unpaid regardless of performance, and when you have really no pressure and play in an environment where stats don't matter... it's very different.

 

I need a routine to get my ass out bed in the morning and start the day. I think so do most people. You also need a role pretty much anywhere, and if your "role" is more of a jack-of-all-trades type or something where you do a lot of different things and make different types of decisions, you at least need to be able to identify what your strengths and weaknesses are so you know what you can or should do and what ou should have someone else do.

[greg775]

We're on our fourth closer of the season already, essentially.

 

Jones, Lindstrom, Belisario and now ??? (Guerra/Petricka).

 

If you go with the "hot hand," how many blown saves do they get to prove they're not the hot hand? There's just no way that this strategy, with the talent we have remaining in our pen (or lack thereof), is going to yield anything close to an 80-85% save conversion rate.

 

Who would even be the "hot hand" now? Petricka? Putnam? Guerra? They each have their own unique set of pro's and con's.

 

The ONLY time the pen was working well was when Putnam knew he was the 7th inning guy, Belisario 8th and Lindstrom 9th. If you keep changing their roles every night, it just won't work very effectively. Bullpens need to have consistency and established roles...defined expectations.

 

You have to go with the hot hand when the current closer is as bad as Bella has been. I don't know how many games you allow the current hot hand to blow. It's kind of an eye test thing. It'd be criminal to put Bella out there again. It's kind of a deal where you just "know" if you are the manager.

 

[caulfield12]

You have to go with the hot hand when the current closer is as bad as Bella has been. I don't know how many games you allow the current hot hand to blow. It's kind of an eye test thing. It'd be criminal to put Bella out there again. It's kind of a deal where you just "know" if you are the manager.

 

Don't want to keep Belisario, that's not the issue.

 

It's deciding between Guerra, Putnam and Petricka. Today, it seems Guerra will be entering bottom of the 8th.

[Eminor3rd]

When your role is "pitcher" and you are doing it for fun because you want to and you are unpaid regardless of performance, and when you have really no pressure and play in an environment where stats don't matter... it's very different.

 

I need a routine to get my ass out bed in the morning and start the day. I think so do most people. You also need a role pretty much anywhere, and if your "role" is more of a jack-of-all-trades type or something where you do a lot of different things and make different types of decisions, you at least need to be able to identify what your strengths and weaknesses are so you know what you can or should do and what ou should have someone else do.

 

It's not realistic to be able to plan every single inning of every single day out for a RP. If "be ready to pitch between 8 and 10 on game days" is too much for someone to handle, they don't belong in the major leagues. If children can do it for fun, the world's best adults should be able to do it for millions of dollars.

[ptatc]

No, you warm up when they call to the bullpen and ask you to warm up.

but that's not what they do. They start with the stretching and therband work well before they begin to throw other wise no one would be ready for over an inning once they are called. It's not like they do nothing until they call to the pen.

[Eminor3rd]

but that's not what they do. They start with the stretching and therband work well before they begin to throw other wise no one would be ready for over an inning once they are called. It's not like they do nothing until they call to the pen.

 

Good, they're professional athletes. They should be ready to play during games, just like other bench players. My point is it isn't like they blow their arms throwing to prepare.

[ptatc]

How do you know this?

 

It's an excuse. None of us "needed" this in little league, High School, or American Legion when I played. We all did just fine.

If you've ever spent time in an MLB pen or locker room you would see it ins't true.

It is all mental but this is how MLB players cope with alll the failure. It's all in the routine and they do not like it when they routine is upset.

 

You didn't need it at age because 1) the workload isn't there and 2) the talent isn't there. The really good players didn't need it because they were playing inferior talent and the inferior players didn't need it because they weren't very good anyway.

 

This is the learning process in the minors. They aren't learning the "game" of baseball. They are learning how to deal with the massive amount of failure and the long season grind.

[ptatc]

Good, they're professional athletes. They should be ready to play during games, just like other bench players. My point is it isn't like they blow their arms throwing to prepare.

Yes, they have a greater chance to injure their arms. They are not like bench players who know they will pinch hit if a lefty comes in (although that is defined as well). Pitchers in the pen will not be as effective if they aren't mentally prepared to go in.

[Eminor3rd]

Yes, they have a greater chance to injure their arms. They are not like bench players who know they will pinch hit if a lefty comes in (although that is defined as well). Pitchers in the pen will not be as effective if they aren't mentally prepared to go in.

 

Then they should be mentally prepared to go in.

[ptatc]

It's not realistic to be able to plan every single inning of every single day out for a RP. If "be ready to pitch between 8 and 10 on game days" is too much for someone to handle, they don't belong in the major leagues. If children can do it for fun, the world's best adults should be able to do it for millions of dollars.

Yes, it is realistic and that is what they do. Before the games the pitching staff and usually the pitching coach will go over the bullpen plan. Today so and so will go in with a lefty in a tight situation. If we need a guy before the 6th, so and so will go in. Jeff you have the 8th unless it's a blowout.

 

This is discussed before every series at least and usally before games in the pen. If it changes due to something else in a game the bullpen coach will talk to the players in the game.

 

Again, i'm just telling you how they do it and why it's important. This is what happens in the MLB and why they don't like the change. It's mostly mental but that is how you get the most out of the pitchers. If they aren't comfortably mentally, you aren't going to get the most out of them.

[ptatc]

Then they should be mentally prepared to go in.

But over 6 months of doing that you will wear them down. They will be worn out by the end of the season. 90% of the game is half mental as Berra used to say.

[Eminor3rd]

Yeah, I guess I just expect more out of them mentally. I'm not saying it's easy, but that's why they make so much money. If they can't stay mentally prepared because they've sucked so much as a group that their roles are in flux, it's a knock on them, not on the manager.

[Dick Allen]

Can someone make a chart with all the relievers and the innings they should pitch? If roles being change wreaks havoc on the rest of the bullpen, how come no one mentioned that when they said it was such a great idea to trade Addison Reed?

[GreenSox]

I think Ventura charted it out well:

 

Daryl Van Schouwen @CST_soxvan · 6h

Relivers like having defined roles. "I'm sure they do,'' Ventura said. 'But the role is when you come in get some outs. It's pretty simple.'