Closer? 'We don't really have one'

[Eminor3rd]

I think Ventura charted it out well:

 

Daryl Van Schouwen @CST_soxvan · 6h

Relivers like having defined roles. "I'm sure they do,'' Ventura said. 'But the role is when you come in get some outs. It's pretty simple.'

 

Boom

[ptatc]

Can someone make a chart with all the relievers and the innings they should pitch? If roles being change wreaks havoc on the rest of the bullpen, how come no one mentioned that when they said it was such a great idea to trade Addison Reed?

I'm sure they did. I think the plan was Jones , 9th, Linstrom, Belly 8th, Downs situational lefty.........

[ptatc]

Boom

You will only see this when the bullpen is ineffective. An effective bullpen will have the defined roles. With the way they are pitching now it doesn't matter what you do.

[Eminor3rd]

You will only see this when the bullpen is ineffective. An effective bullpen will have the defined roles. With the way they are pitching now it doesn't matter what you do.

 

Right, because they're getting people out. When they fail though, "well I need a defined role" isn't an excuse. That's my point. You can't have a defined role when you can't be relied upon.

[ptatc]

Right, because they're getting people out. When they fail though, "well I need a defined role" isn't an excuse. That's my point. You can't have a defined role when you can't be relied upon.

No, it's that. There is always failure in the pen. It's when it happens over time and nobody is effective is the only time that it comes into play. I've never heard an individual player use it as an excuse when he pitched poorly. you only see it when the entire pen is ineffective and no one has that role. It's not an excuse for failure individually as frequently you have players moved in an out. It's just that when you have effective bullpens they need to have confidence in their role. When everyone is pitching poorly there is no confidence anywhere.

 

Do you have confidence and go pitch well or do you have to pitch well before you have confidence. There is a little of both to make an effective pitcher and an effective staff.

[Eminor3rd]

No, it's that. There is always failure in the pen. It's when it happens over time and nobody is effective is the only time that it comes into play. I've never heard an individual player use it as an excuse when he pitched poorly. you only see it when the entire pen is ineffective and no one has that role. It's not an excuse for failure individually as frequently you have players moved in an out. It's just that when you have effective bullpens they need to have confidence in their role. When everyone is pitching poorly there is no confidence anywhere.

 

Do you have confidence and go pitch well or do you have to pitch well before you have confidence. There is a little of both to make an effective pitcher and an effective staff.

 

I haven't heard the players say it either, but it comes up around here constantly NOT as a byproduct (as you described), but as some sort of solution. Such as caulfield's post that spawned my original tantrum:

 

We're on our fourth closer of the season already, essentially.

 

Jones, Lindstrom, Belisario and now ??? (Guerra/Petricka).

 

If you go with the "hot hand," how many blown saves do they get to prove they're not the hot hand? There's just no way that this strategy, with the talent we have remaining in our pen (or lack thereof), is going to yield anything close to an 80-85% save conversion rate.

 

Who would even be the "hot hand" now? Petricka? Putnam? Guerra? They each have their own unique set of pro's and con's.

 

The ONLY time the pen was working well was when Putnam knew he was the 7th inning guy, Belisario 8th and Lindstrom 9th. If you keep changing their roles every night, it just won't work very effectively. Bullpens need to have consistency and established roles...defined expectations.

 

The solution to our bullpen issues is to have better players, not to find a mystical order in which to line our current players up.

[Dick Allen]

Doesn't sound like a guy they would anticipate not being able to handle the 9th:

 

"Belisario provides us with a veteran reliever who owns a proven record of recording key outs at big moments of games," White Sox general manager Rick Hahn said in a statement. "He is a power arm with plus stuff who profiles well for our ballpark. He has experience pitching in hold and save situations, and we see him as yet another very strong option for [manager] Robin Ventura in the back end of our bullpen."

 

 

[ptatc]

I haven't heard the players say it either, but it comes up around here constantly NOT as a byproduct (as you described), but as some sort of solution. Such as caulfield's post that spawned my original tantrum:

 

 

 

The solution to our bullpen issues is to have better players, not to find a mystical order in which to line our current players up.

The goal is always to have better pitchers. However, the better pitchers will also pitch better with confidence and comfort in the roles. Whether people want to believe it or not, these are people and they will perform better in comfortable situations. Even if it's in their own mind, it's what they think. Baseball players are people of routines and habit, usually superstitions as well.

 

There is an order where people feel more comfortable and roles where players feel more comfortable. It applies to hitters as well. Why do some hitters hit better in a different spot in the order? All they have to do is hit the ball wherever they are? People will perform better at anything in life when the are comfortable and confident. That's not to say it can't work differently but that's usually when you get the most out of them.

 

It can't make a bad player good, but it can make an average to good player worse.

[Dick Allen]

The goal is always to have better pitchers. However, the better pitchers will also pitch better with confidence and comfort in the roles. Whether people want to believe it or not, these are people and they will perform better in comfortable situations. Even if it's in their own mind, it's what they think. Baseball players are people of routines and habit, usually superstitions as well.

 

There is an order where people feel more comfortable and roles where players feel more comfortable. It applies to hitters as well. Why do some hitters hit better in a different spot in the order? All they have to do is hit the ball wherever they are? People will perform better at anything in life when the are comfortable and confident. That's not to say it can't work differently but that's usually when you get the most out of them.

 

It can't make a bad player good, but it can make an average to good player worse.

They still had reasonably defined roles when Beli was the closer. They just couldn't handle them. I really don't know why it would freak a major league pitcher out coming in during tje 8th inning vs. the 7th, but if it does, that isn't a guy you want on your roster moving forward. The game will dictate when these guys come in anyway.

[southsider2k5]

They still had reasonably defined roles when Beli was the closer. They just couldn't handle them. I really don't know why it would freak a major league pitcher out coming in during tje 8th inning vs. the 7th, but if it does, that isn't a guy you want on your roster moving forward. The game will dictate when these guys come in anyway.

 

There are plenty of really good set up men who were horrible in the 9th inning. It happens.

[ptatc]

They still had reasonably defined roles when Beli was the closer. They just couldn't handle them. I really don't know why it would freak a major league pitcher out coming in during tje 8th inning vs. the 7th, but if it does, that isn't a guy you want on your roster moving forward. The game will dictate when these guys come in anyway.

It's not so much the 7th vs. the 8th. Those are the "set up roles." It's more who is the first guys up, which could be the 5-7, who is the set up guys, who are the specialists and who is the closer.

I don't necessarily disagree with the concept. I'm just saying that is the way it works in MLB bullpens. I've been around 2 different ones on a daily basis and that is the way it is and how it's explained. When I worked in the minors this is how they are instructed to prepare to come into the game. It's all about making sure they are properly prepared and can last for the full season, both physically and mentally.

[Dick Allen]

It's not so much the 7th vs. the 8th. Those are the "set up roles." It's more who is the first guys up, which could be the 5-7, who is the set up guys, who are the specialists and who is the closer.

I don't necessarily disagree with the concept. I'm just saying that is the way it works in MLB bullpens. I've been around 2 different ones on a daily basis and that is the way it is and how it's explained. When I worked in the minors this is how they are instructed to prepare to come into the game. It's all about making sure they are properly prepared and can last for the full season, both physically and mentally.

But what I am saying is they still had roles. They had an idea before each game when they were coming in. It may have changed an inning with the injuries, but they still had roles. The problem is the pitchers in the bullpen aren't very good. Some waiver claims, some non tenders.

[caulfield12]

They still had reasonably defined roles when Beli was the closer. They just couldn't handle them. I really don't know why it would freak a major league pitcher out coming in during tje 8th inning vs. the 7th, but if it does, that isn't a guy you want on your roster moving forward. The game will dictate when these guys come in anyway.

 

 

It even happened with Dotel and Linebrink when they were moved out of the 7th and 8th inning, and they were the quintessential experienced/veteran relievers with a track record and pretty huge contracts for relievers.

Edited June 29, 2014 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

But what I am saying is they still had roles. They had an idea before each game when they were coming in. It may have changed an inning with the injuries, but they still had roles. The problem is the pitchers in the bullpen aren't very good. Some waiver claims, some non tenders.

Definitely. As I said before. The defined roles, comfort zone idea cannot make a bad pitcher good. however, it can take an average or good pitcher and make him lose confidence and be worse.

 

It has a lot to do with the mental make up of eilte athletes. If you want to talk about other sports track athletes are even worse on an elite level.

[southsider2k5]

It even happened with Dotel and Linebrink when they were moved out of the 7th and 8th inning, and they were the quintessential experienced/veteran relievers with a track record and pretty huge contracts for relievers.

 

Crain... Thornton... LaTroy Hawkins all come to mind as well.

[greg775]

Putnam gave up a run but got the save. I'd give him the ball in the ninth again the next time we need a save. Why not? If and when Putnam can't handle the role, I'd go next to Petricka probably. Bella deserved to get the job pulled from under him. Hope Bella can be an efficient set up guy or a guy who can get an out or two.

[caulfield12]

Crain... Thornton... LaTroy Hawkins all come to mind as well.

 

 

Marte and Howry would be other guys in that category.

 

Then you have those one-year wonders like Hermanson first half of 2005 and Jason Grilli last year with the Pirates. But that success almost never continues for a veteran who rises to closer in the 2nd half of his career after being a reliever or mostly a starter...unless his name is Eckersley.

Edited June 29, 2014 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Marte and Howry would be other guys in that category.

 

Then you have those one-year wonders like Hermanson first half of 2005 and Jason Grilli last year with the Pirates. But that success almost never continues for a veteran who rises to closer in the 2nd half of his career after being a reliever or mostly a starter...unless his name is Eckersley.

Well yeah, because they often get injured.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Marte and Howry would be other guys in that category.

 

Then you have those one-year wonders like Hermanson first half of 2005 and Jason Grilli last year with the Pirates. But that success almost never continues for a veteran who rises to closer in the 2nd half of his career after being a reliever or mostly a starter...unless his name is Eckersley.

Smoltz and Perkins off the top of my head.

[ptatc]

Smoltz and Perkins off the top of my head.

Dave Righetti

[Jerksticks]

That's probably my favorite quote from robin during his tenure. Translation: "Roles? Have you not watched the games? They're f***ing walking everybody jackass! Roles lol." Playoffs!?

[southsider2k5]

Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin 28m

 

Robin said Putnam and Petricka are the two favorites for ninth inning work with a lead

[knightni]

It's like deciding the captain of the Titanic's shuffleboard team.

[southsider2k5]

Daryl Van Schouwen ‏@CST_soxvan 2h

 

Petricka will be getting more ninth-inning duty, Ventura said. "He'll be the guy who's in there more often than not."

[aboz56]

The bullpen is a disaster. Needs to be addressed in the offseason, whether this team plans to contend or not.