Another Cuban IF Available

[LDF]

Jose Fernandez, a LH second baseman, is regarded by some as the best player remaining in Cuba after Abreu left. Badler ranked him #3 in his Cuban player rankings behind two guys that will seemingly never defect (Despaigne and Gouriel). Great on base skills and very good contact hitter, not a runner and defense is around average.

 

i am a little confuse. would you rather sign Tomas or Fernandez?

[LDF]

Agree, but it is nice to dream.

 

ahhh the advance sleeping aid is a wonderful thing.

[harfman77]

i am a little confuse. would you rather sign Tomas or Fernandez?

 

I would much rather have Fernandez, he has an elite bat. Tomas' profile to me reads a lot like Viciedos, and we already have that. Though since we are dreaming today I will go ahead and take both.

[Eminor3rd]

Generally speaking, I think the market is ripe to bust with Cuban players. The next wave all sound a notch or two below their predecessors and the dollar figures seem to be about as high as they're going to get.

 

I think it's a good time to let some other teams take these risks.

[LDF]

I would much rather have Fernandez, he has an elite bat. Tomas' profile to me reads a lot like Viciedos, and we already have that. Though since we are dreaming today I will go ahead and take both.

 

bingo. but i still will take that chance. DV can not happen twice. the odds.

 

i am just not sure about Fernandez. not enuf news either way.

 

[LDF]

Generally speaking, I think the market is ripe to bust with Cuban players. The next wave all sound a notch or two below their predecessors and the dollar figures seem to be about as high as they're going to get.

 

I think it's a good time to let some other teams take these risks.

 

the way Balder wrote and what i am trying to read between the lines,

i think he is thinking the same.

[witesoxfan]

Sounding like Viciedo from the reports we have is a GOOD thing. Viciedo is an incredibly talented hitter - quick wrists, big power, and great plate coverage. He struggles recognizing pitches and, from what I can tell, with his hand-eye coordination. He's shown flashes in the past where he's willing to work the count and he absolutely tears it up, but those are so few and far in between that it's hard to count on anything but a free swinging strike out machine.

 

If you get a guy with Viciedo's talent at the plate or even a level below that but who is capable of recognizing pitches and/or having good hand-eye coordination, you have a fantastic hitter.

[Eminor3rd]

Sounding like Viciedo from the reports we have is a GOOD thing. Viciedo is an incredibly talented hitter - quick wrists, big power, and great plate coverage. He struggles recognizing pitches and, from what I can tell, with his hand-eye coordination. He's shown flashes in the past where he's willing to work the count and he absolutely tears it up, but those are so few and far in between that it's hard to count on anything but a free swinging strike out machine.

 

If you get a guy with Viciedo's talent at the plate or even a level below that but who is capable of recognizing pitches and/or having good hand-eye coordination, you have a fantastic hitter.

 

But hand-eye coordination is a CRITICAL component and should be considered more of a tool than a skill. If reports of his shortcomings are similar to those of Viciedo, those shortcomings act as the best proxy we have in assuming he has the same types of "tool" issues, including but not limited to hand-eye coordination.

 

I mean, at the end of the day, who knows? But there seems to be big bust potential if he's like Viciedo, because Viciedo is a bust.

[witesoxfan]

But hand-eye coordination is a CRITICAL component and should be considered more of a tool than a skill. If reports of his shortcomings are similar to those of Viciedo, those shortcomings act as the best proxy we have in assuming he has the same types of "tool" issues, including but not limited to hand-eye coordination.

 

I mean, at the end of the day, who knows? But there seems to be big bust potential if he's like Viciedo, because Viciedo is a bust.

 

I agree, but much of it depends on how he works out. It's hard to see how he's doing without visual proof.

[LDF]

 

pitch recognition, eye and hand ability and strong wrist and

hands.

 

what amazes me is, and pls think about it, it takes what 1-2 seconds

from when the ball leaves the pitchers hand and gets to the plate. in

that time the hitter has to recognize it, gage hit and see where the

bat make contact with the ball. in that time, they have to be able

to swing and try to place the ball.

 

now imagine if that hitter has the ability to hit with power and i am

talking about 20+ hrs a yr...... that is a feat. imagine that hitter is

an elite 30+ hrs. what a find.

 

this is all done in a span of 1-2 seconds of recognizing the pitch coming

from the pitcher.

 

DV is what 25 yrs old, don't count him out, just yet.

[LDF]

I also tired of hearing Tomas sounds too much like Viciedo. Not only was Viciedo not a LF when he defected, but people are jumping too much into the convenient fact that they're both Cuban,

 

i will admit that i was one of them who compared the two. but i did it

by myself for 2 weeks. it wasn't until today and the timing was right

to post it.

 

here is my reason, age and the unknown factor makes them sound

very similar. race i believe is not a factor.

 

but then again, what the hell do i know.

[southsider2k5]

I also tired of hearing Tomas sounds too much like Viciedo. Not only was Viciedo not a LF when he defected, but people are jumping too much into the convenient fact that they're both Cuban,

 

Those aren't the only two reasons for that comp.

[harfman77]

I also tired of hearing Tomas sounds too much like Viciedo. Not only was Viciedo not a LF when he defected, but people are jumping too much into the convenient fact that they're both Cuban,

 

No that is not the reason for the comp.

 

The reason is that Tomas has huge power in a right handed bat but struggles to make enough contact to make that power play in the majors.

 

From BA

"A righthanded-hitting corner outfielder, Tomas can hit towering home runs thanks to the strength from his thickly-built 6-foot-1, 230-pound frame. Tomas has 70 raw power on the 20-80 scale, and with Jose Abreu already gone, the only player still in Cuba with more raw power than him was Alfredo Despaigne. He has some experience in center field and is a decent runner for his size, but his speed is still below-average and he’s going to be a corner outfielder in pro ball."

 

"Tomas did show some swing-and-miss tendencies at the WBC with an uppercut stroke and trouble handling good breaking pitches. Three months after the WBC, when Cuba took a team to the U.S. last summer to face the college national team, the U.S. power arms were able to exploit some of those holes by beating him with good velocity up and in and getting him to swing through soft stuff in and out of the zone."

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/internation...as-leaves-cuba/

 

That description is what draws comparisons to Viciedo.

[LDF]

No that is not the reason for the comp.

 

The reason is that Tomas has huge power in a right handed bat but struggles to make enough contact to make that power play in the majors.

 

From BA

"A righthanded-hitting corner outfielder, Tomas can hit towering home runs thanks to the strength from his thickly-built 6-foot-1, 230-pound frame. Tomas has 70 raw power on the 20-80 scale, and with Jose Abreu already gone, the only player still in Cuba with more raw power than him was Alfredo Despaigne. He has some experience in center field and is a decent runner for his size, but his speed is still below-average and he’s going to be a corner outfielder in pro ball."

 

"Tomas did show some swing-and-miss tendencies at the WBC with an uppercut stroke and trouble handling good breaking pitches. Three months after the WBC, when Cuba took a team to the U.S. last summer to face the college national team, the U.S. power arms were able to exploit some of those holes by beating him with good velocity up and in and getting him to swing through soft stuff in and out of the zone."

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/internation...as-leaves-cuba/

 

That description is what draws comparisons to Viciedo.

 

a great find! i didn't know all that.

 

i still think its a gamble worth taking.

[LDF]

I understand that they have similar profiles (RH, power, potential contact issues) but there are things that differentiate them as well. Tomas for one, will more than likely start in the big leagues. Something that Viciedo couldn't because he was much more raw. Tomas is much more athletic and figures to be at least average in LF, another thing Viciedo cannot do. Obviously exposure isn't where it is today, but when Viciedo defected, I don't remember 80 raw power being thrown around like it is with Tomas.

 

when DV sign with sox?

at what age did he made the majors?

at what position did he come up in?

 

Tomas is how old?

 

there is a lot of difference between the two, except for what is being written on

his profile of a hitter.

[harfman77]

I understand that they have similar profiles (RH, power, potential contact issues) but there are things that differentiate them as well. Tomas for one, will more than likely start in the big leagues. Something that Viciedo couldn't because he was much more raw. Tomas is much more athletic and figures to be at least average in LF, another thing Viciedo cannot do. Obviously exposure isn't where it is today, but when Viciedo defected, I don't remember 80 raw power being thrown around like it is with Tomas.

 

I am not sure what the power number was for DV, but it was pretty high. He does have 70-80 power, if he can find the ball. Dayan was also much more raw coming over at 19, which could be good or bad if you weigh Sox player development against that of the Cuban leagues. DV is only a year older than Tomas and with similar profiles I would rather keep DV than throw a large amount of money at someone who may only be marginally better. I think Tomas and DV both have room to grow and improve but I feel like the Sox can take the $7M+ that Tomas will cost over Viciedo and strengthen the club in other ways.

 

If the club scouts him and decides that he is markedly better, than yes make the jump.

[LDF]

I am not sure what the power number was for DV, but it was pretty high. He does have 70-80 power, if he can find the ball. Dayan was also much more raw coming over at 19, which could be good or bad if you weigh Sox player development against that of the Cuban leagues. DV is only a year older than Tomas and with similar profiles I would rather keep DV than throw a large amount of money at someone who may only be marginally better. I think Tomas and DV both have room to grow and improve but I feel like the Sox can take the $7M+ that Tomas will cost over Viciedo and strengthen the club in other ways.

 

If the club scouts him and decides that he is markedly better, than yes make the jump.

 

overall a good post with a great idea.

 

the key factor, as you mention, what will the org scouts think and

at what value?

 

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

Just touching on Dayan's "room for growth" -- look at his comps through 25 on b-ref:

 

Willie Montanez (971)

George Hendrick (968)

Jeremy Hermida (964)

Rick Reichardt (958)

Dick Kokos (955)

Carmelo Martinez (954)

Charlie Spikes (954)

Andy Van Slyke (953)

Cliff Floyd (950)

Luis Gonzalez (949)

 

Not exactly a row of guys that turned into average or even above average players. Hendrick had a nice career but he put together a season (124 OPS+) at 24 that Dayan could only dream about. Van Slyke obviously was on teh complete opposite side of the spectrum with defensive value.

 

Dayan reminds me of Wily Mo Pena. Crap defense, crap running, solid power, even good power, but no on base skills, no contact skills. Mo washed out of the league after he proved he couldn't hit enough to stick as a regular. I can see Dayan going to Japan in a few years and having a good career, but I can't see him having a good career in MLB without a major, major jump in contact skill or patience. Things that just aren't likely to happen.

[Eminor3rd]

Just touching on Dayan's "room for growth" -- look at his comps through 25 on b-ref:

 

Willie Montanez (971)

George Hendrick (968)

Jeremy Hermida (964)

Rick Reichardt (958)

Dick Kokos (955)

Carmelo Martinez (954)

Charlie Spikes (954)

Andy Van Slyke (953)

Cliff Floyd (950)

Luis Gonzalez (949)

 

Not exactly a row of guys that turned into average or even above average players. Hendrick had a nice career but he put together a season (124 OPS+) at 24 that Dayan could only dream about. Van Slyke obviously was on teh complete opposite side of the spectrum with defensive value.

 

Dayan reminds me of Wily Mo Pena. Crap defense, crap running, solid power, even good power, but no on base skills, no contact skills. Mo washed out of the league after he proved he couldn't hit enough to stick as a regular. I can see Dayan going to Japan in a few years and having a good career, but I can't see him having a good career in MLB without a major, major jump in contact skill or patience. Things that just aren't likely to happen.

 

Wily Mo is KILLING Japan right now, though!

[LDF]

Just touching on Dayan's "room for growth" -- look at his comps through 25 on b-ref:

 

Willie Montanez (971)

George Hendrick (968)

Jeremy Hermida (964)

Rick Reichardt (958)

Dick Kokos (955)

Carmelo Martinez (954)

Charlie Spikes (954)

Andy Van Slyke (953)

Cliff Floyd (950)

Luis Gonzalez (949)

 

Not exactly a row of guys that turned into average or even above average players. Hendrick had a nice career but he put together a season (124 OPS+) at 24 that Dayan could only dream about. Van Slyke obviously was on teh complete opposite side of the spectrum with defensive value.

 

Dayan reminds me of Wily Mo Pena. Crap defense, crap running, solid power, even good power, but no on base skills, no contact skills. Mo washed out of the league after he proved he couldn't hit enough to stick as a regular. I can see Dayan going to Japan in a few years and having a good career, but I can't see him having a good career in MLB without a major, major jump in contact skill or patience. Things that just aren't likely to happen.

 

another excellent post.

[LDF]

Wily Mo is KILLING Japan right now, though!

 

and he still is having a career, even though it is not mlb.

[Chisoxfn]

Just touching on Dayan's "room for growth" -- look at his comps through 25 on b-ref:

 

Willie Montanez (971)

George Hendrick (968)

Jeremy Hermida (964)

Rick Reichardt (958)

Dick Kokos (955)

Carmelo Martinez (954)

Charlie Spikes (954)

Andy Van Slyke (953)

Cliff Floyd (950)

Luis Gonzalez (949)

 

Not exactly a row of guys that turned into average or even above average players. Hendrick had a nice career but he put together a season (124 OPS+) at 24 that Dayan could only dream about. Van Slyke obviously was on teh complete opposite side of the spectrum with defensive value.

 

Dayan reminds me of Wily Mo Pena. Crap defense, crap running, solid power, even good power, but no on base skills, no contact skills. Mo washed out of the league after he proved he couldn't hit enough to stick as a regular. I can see Dayan going to Japan in a few years and having a good career, but I can't see him having a good career in MLB without a major, major jump in contact skill or patience. Things that just aren't likely to happen.

Technically speaking, those last three players on that list all had some pretty impressive runs.

[chitownsportsfan]

Well one of them was probably a roider, one of them was a very gifted all around athlete and Floyd was the #1 overall prospect according to BA in 1994 so his upside was always there. Dayan was never that highly touted.

[southsider2k5]

No that is not the reason for the comp.

 

The reason is that Tomas has huge power in a right handed bat but struggles to make enough contact to make that power play in the majors.

 

From BA

"A righthanded-hitting corner outfielder, Tomas can hit towering home runs thanks to the strength from his thickly-built 6-foot-1, 230-pound frame. Tomas has 70 raw power on the 20-80 scale, and with Jose Abreu already gone, the only player still in Cuba with more raw power than him was Alfredo Despaigne. He has some experience in center field and is a decent runner for his size, but his speed is still below-average and he’s going to be a corner outfielder in pro ball."

 

"Tomas did show some swing-and-miss tendencies at the WBC with an uppercut stroke and trouble handling good breaking pitches. Three months after the WBC, when Cuba took a team to the U.S. last summer to face the college national team, the U.S. power arms were able to exploit some of those holes by beating him with good velocity up and in and getting him to swing through soft stuff in and out of the zone."

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/internation...as-leaves-cuba/

 

That description is what draws comparisons to Viciedo.

 

I also remember them talking about how big his arm was, how bad his range was, and how he had some adventures in the OF.

[LDF]

I also remember them talking about how big his arm was, how bad his range was, and how he had some adventures in the OF.

 

that is why I keep on saying that his best position for his ability to play defense is

the DH role, right there with DV.