Teams Interested in Viciedo

[Vance Law]

I stopped reading. Jordan Danks isn't even Brian Anderson.

 

Brian Anderson in his one (almost) full season, 2006: 0.0 WAR

Dayan Viciedo since the beginning of 2013 (his last 207 games): 0.1 WAR

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

But Ross Gload was one of my favorite players and Viciedo is not, so nothing in common.

 

Boom.

 

Yea, I had a sports crush on Ross Gload, mostly for that one game in 2004 when he hit a grand slam off of Zambrano at Wrigley that got called back, only to follow it up with a bases-clearing double.

 

Too bad he didnt have ebough power for 1B and wasn't a good enough defender to stick in the OF.

[Vance Law]

Jordan Danks is fine as a 4th OF, to be used mostly as a pinch-runner/defensive replacement. Biggest reason Sierra gets the nod over him is that two of the starting OF are left-handed.

 

When I brought up Jordan Danks in this discussion, I wasn't suggesting that he should be a long term solution for the Sox. He'd be a fine 4th outfielder. I was pointing out what little value Viciedo provides. Viciedo shouldn't even be our 4th outfielder next year. He should be a part time DH, if anything.

[Vance Law]

People can hate all they want on Viciedo and be eager to move him, but when Jordan Danks is the next best option we have in-house, things can get a lot uglier.

That's the thing. Danks would be an improvement. Things are uglier now. You might well be someone who doesn't fully appreciate the respective value they bring as defenders.

[GGajewski18]

Chris Cotillo @ChrisCotillo · 13m

Source: No "significant talks" between #Mariners, #WhiteSox on a trade for Dayan Viciedo http://sbnation.com/e/5637244

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

Chris Cotillo @ChrisCotillo · 13m

Source: No "significant talks" between #Mariners, #WhiteSox on a trade for Dayan Viciedo http://sbnation.com/e/5637244

 

#sadface

[Chicago White Sox]

That's the thing. Danks would be an improvement. Things are uglier now. You might well be someone who doesn't fully appreciate the respective value they bring as defenders.

Again, this is the problem analyzing the game of baseball from a context neutral perspective. As bad as some people think Viciedo has been offensively, he's been close to league average. Danks is an absolute black hole with the bat and takes away value from the guys batting before and after him. Sure, he's a better base-runner and will get to a few more balls, but LF is one of the few spots where you can play a power bat that isn't great in the glove. The whole "a run saved is a run earned" is nice in principle, but field a lineup full of great defense, bad offense players and you're team will suck because context does matter. I love WAR as a stat for benchmarking players, but I really hate how often it's being used as the end all be all. Like any good stat it should be used to help tell a story, not be the story itself.

[Vance Law]

This "argument" is obviously entirely for sport. But anyway..

 

As bad as some people think Viciedo has been offensively, he's been close to league average.

He did get closer to league average after having his best game of the season yesterday. We'll see if he keeps it up. His OPS on Tuesday was .698. Danks put up a .682 OPS last year while receiving the most regular playing time of his career. He has an .831 OPS at AAA this season.

 

Danks is an absolute black hole with the bat and takes away value from the guys batting before and after him.

 

"is a black hole" doesn't give any quantitative reference to allow for a comparison between players. What color hole is Viciedo then? Dark, dark grey? Light black? Viciedo is a black hole as a defender. When you add up respective hole colors for the different facets of the game, how do Danks and Viciedo stack up?

 

The whole "a run saved is a run earned" is nice in principle, but field a lineup full of great defense, bad offense players and you're team will suck because context does matter.

What if you have a lineup full of great defense and then one guy who is bad and is also a subpar hitter (Viciedo)?

 

 

[caulfield12]

This "argument" is obviously entirely for sport. But anyway..

 

 

He did get closer to league average after having his best game of the season yesterday. We'll see if he keeps it up. His OPS on Tuesday was .698. Danks put up a .682 OPS last year while receiving the most regular playing time of his career. He has an .831 OPS at AAA this season.

 

 

 

"is a black hole" doesn't give any quantitative reference to allow for a comparison between players. What color hole is Viciedo then? Dark, dark grey? Light black? Viciedo is a black hole as a defender. When you add up respective hole colors for the different facets of the game, how do Danks and Viciedo stack up?

 

 

What if you have a lineup full of great defense and then one guy who is bad and is also a subpar hitter (Viciedo)?

 

 

Balta has quoted over and over again the average OPS for a LFer in around 710-720.

 

Whether we like it or not, offense/power are down, pitchers are dominating.

 

 

By the way, what did the Seattle Mariners win for their "best defense" title (Safeco's actually an outfield where it makes a lot more sense to have three solid outfielders) 3-4 years ago?

 

It would be one thing if Jordan Danks was a great defender. He's not. He's very good, but he's not any better than Brian Anderson...and most would argue in favor of Anderson around here surely.

 

If he was Endy Chavez or the Mets' CF or Franklyn Gutierrez in his prime...and he could singlehandedly take over a game defensively, that would be one thing. But Eaton is ensconced in CF right now, so you want to move him to LF and play Danks there? WHY?

 

So our offense, which is looking more and more 2013-esque by the day other than Abreu's presence, will have even more black holes?

[greg775]

Even though Viciedo may be creeping closer to league average, it's apparent he's just not very good. Trade him to the M's after this series in which he's actually hit pretty well and try to rob them while we are at it.

He hit the ball this series. M's have to be intrigued. Make them overpay and get rid of Dayan.

[Vance Law]

Balta has quoted over and over again the average OPS for a LFer in around 710-720.

 

It is .737 for American League left fielders this year, and that includes the playing time by backups. If you have a defender of the caliber of Adam Dunn, or Manny Ramirez, or, Justin Upton or Matt Holliday or Viciedo, they need to be a much above average hitter to make up for it. That's the only reason to put them out there.

 

[caulfield12]

It is .737 for American League left fielders this year, and that includes the playing time by backups. If you have a defender of the caliber of Adam Dunn, or Manny Ramirez, or, Justin Upton or Matt Holliday or Viciedo, they need to be a much above average hitter to make up for it. That's the only reason to put them out there.

 

 

And for RF?

 

Because you have to believe they're going to want to have the least amount of physical stress possible on Garcia, so Dayan likely would be in RF if he ends up staying in Chicago.

Edited July 6, 2014 by caulfield12

[2nd_city_saint787]

With Boston supposedly being interested I'd gladly take Andrew Miller back who I'm seeing may be on the block.

 

A legit LH reliver to pair with Petricka/Putnam/Jones/Webb for the future would be real nice.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

With Boston supposedly being interested I'd gladly take Andrew Miller back who I'm seeing may be on the block.

 

A legit LH reliver to pair with Petricka/Putnam/Jones/Webb for the future would be real nice.

 

 

Miller is a free agent after this season.

 

Boston is in pretty bad shape. 8 games out of their division, 9 games out of the WC. They have a worse W/L than the White Sox.

 

I doubt they are legitimately adding anything.

 

If the Sox add a lefthanded arm for the bullpen, it would seem based on Hahn's short history, someone younger and pre-arb (like Luis Avilan, for example)

[2nd_city_saint787]

Miller is a free agent after this season.

 

Boston is in pretty bad shape. 8 games out of their division, 9 games out of the WC. They have a worse W/L than the White Sox.

 

I doubt they are legitimately adding anything.

 

If the Sox add a lefthanded arm for the bullpen, it would seem based on Hahn's short history, someone younger and pre-arb (like Luis Avilan, for example)

 

Had not looked at his free agent status....He'd be a real good pick up.

 

I doubt they add anything either, just going off what was being reported here.

 

 

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

Had not looked at his free agent status....He'd be a real good pick up.

 

I doubt they add anything either, just going off what was being reported here.

 

 

Ya, he'd be a nice off-season target for sure. He's a Boras guy so I bet his demands will be that of an ace starting pitcher.

[Jake]

It's not rocket science, here. Dayan has to hit better. We know what a good hitting version of him would look like. A little higher average, a little higher walk rate, and an uptick in power.

 

Bear in mind, when looking at WAR, he's going to have an uphill battle this year playing RF where the defensive portion is going to be even more unkind to him

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

K , so Dunn's a free agent and Viciedo is supposedly going to be traded for a pile of horse manure. So the Sox lose their 2nd and 3rd best power hitters leaving Jose ABreu to out-homer the rest of the team combined ? Hell yea lets put all the pressure on Abreu to carry the team and rely on a bunch of .250 hitters who can't get on base to score runs.

 

Without HR's the Sox will be so so bad. I hope all you folks advocating a powerless team have a plan because it's real easy to say who to get rid of. Use all those fancy stats to come up with more than who to get rid of.

[witesoxfan]

At the end of the day, I think it's going to be difficult to find the proper return for Viciedo. He's likely going to be a mediocre hitter the rest of his career who always flashes with his talent. His upside and talent that shows like an Encarnacion or Beltre is always going to get him chances and give the team who has him under contract optimism for the future, thus possibly overvaluing him.

 

The thing is, Dayan Viciedo is the exact type of player people want to acquire during rebuilds. See if the guy can put it together and if not, you have others coming up in the minors. We're sick of him as Sox fans because we've seen him for years and years, but how many Rangers fans were tired of Chris Davis murdering AAA and coming up and failing? How about the Reds with Encarnacion? It's not the worst thing to not get a return on someone via trade.

 

Frankly, the same thing goes for Beckham too with the caveat that the Sox have middle infield depth and Beckham is a free agent after next season. So, no,I don't think they should trade him unless they get a big enough offer, which I don't foresee happening.

[LDF]

At the end of the day, I think it's going to be difficult to find the proper return for Viciedo. He's likely going to be a mediocre hitter the rest of his career who always flashes with his talent. His upside and talent that shows like an Encarnacion or Beltre is always going to get him chances and give the team who has him under contract optimism for the future, thus possibly overvaluing him.

 

The thing is, Dayan Viciedo is the exact type of player people want to acquire during rebuilds. See if the guy can put it together and if not, you have others coming up in the minors. We're sick of him as Sox fans because we've seen him for years and years, but how many Rangers fans were tired of Chris Davis murdering AAA and coming up and failing? How about the Reds with Encarnacion? It's not the worst thing to not get a return on someone via trade.

 

Frankly, the same thing goes for Beckham too with the caveat that the Sox have middle infield depth and Beckham is a free agent after next season. So, no,I don't think they should trade him unless they get a big enough offer, which I don't foresee happening.

 

and with that goes the saying, if we get someone of value find, if not, no trade. lets not think of doing a so - called

trade b/c we and disguise it as a salary dump. we don't need to dump salary and I can live with them in the lineup.

[greg775]

K , so Dunn's a free agent and Viciedo is supposedly going to be traded for a pile of horse manure. So the Sox lose their 2nd and 3rd best power hitters leaving Jose ABreu to out-homer the rest of the team combined ? Hell yea lets put all the pressure on Abreu to carry the team and rely on a bunch of .250 hitters who can't get on base to score runs.

 

Without HR's the Sox will be so so bad. I hope all you folks advocating a powerless team have a plan because it's real easy to say who to get rid of. Use all those fancy stats to come up with more than who to get rid of.

Good point about the HRs. Sox need them. But the Sox are already bad. It's a last-place team two years in a row. And Viciedo and Dunn don't have that many homers. I guess about 10 apiece. Yeah, that's 15 more than a guy like Danks will hit but they are not producing. I think we all still have hopes for Viciedo, but if he won't change his approach, just like the Royals' Hosmer won't (swinging as hard as he can every pitch) what can the Sox do but let him go? I can stomach more of Viciedo if I have to cause he's had some monster games like the 4-or-4 and I think he's had one or two three-hit games.

 

At the end of the day, I think it's going to be difficult to find the proper return for Viciedo. He's likely going to be a mediocre hitter the rest of his career who always flashes with his talent. His upside and talent that shows like an Encarnacion or Beltre is always going to get him chances and give the team who has him under contract optimism for the future, thus possibly overvaluing him.

 

The thing is, Dayan Viciedo is the exact type of player people want to acquire during rebuilds. See if the guy can put it together and if not, you have others coming up in the minors. We're sick of him as Sox fans because we've seen him for years and years, but how many Rangers fans were tired of Chris Davis murdering AAA and coming up and failing? How about the Reds with Encarnacion? It's not the worst thing to not get a return on someone via trade.

 

Frankly, the same thing goes for Beckham too with the caveat that the Sox have middle infield depth and Beckham is a free agent after next season. So, no,I don't think they should trade him unless they get a big enough offer, which I don't foresee happening.

 

Thing is, he had a good series vs. Seattle and supposedly they want him. So I was thinking we could get Seattle to overpay. If so, trade him. If he stays, try to get Abreu to get him to listen to the hitting coach and make some adjustments. He has the power to hit to all fields if he'd just shorten his swing and do it.

 

[Vance Law]

At the end of the day, I think it's going to be difficult to find the proper return for Viciedo. He's likely going to be a mediocre hitter the rest of his career who always flashes with his talent. His upside and talent that shows like an Encarnacion or Beltre is always going to get him chances and give the team who has him under contract optimism for the future, thus possibly overvaluing him.

 

The thing is, Dayan Viciedo is the exact type of player people want to acquire during rebuilds. See if the guy can put it together and if not, you have others coming up in the minors. We're sick of him as Sox fans because we've seen him for years and years, but how many Rangers fans were tired of Chris Davis murdering AAA and coming up and failing? How about the Reds with Encarnacion? It's not the worst thing to not get a return on someone via trade.

 

Frankly, the same thing goes for Beckham too with the caveat that the Sox have middle infield depth and Beckham is a free agent after next season. So, no,I don't think they should trade him unless they get a big enough offer, which I don't foresee happening.

 

I agree with most all of this and if he's still costing us very little, there's no urgency to ship him out. But he also shouldn't be penciled in for full-time at bats.

 

Since he became a starter:

 

2012 OBP .300

2013 OBP .304

2014 OBP .303

 

That kind of player, if he's also hurting you as a corner outfielder (or 1st base) defender, pretty much needs to be one of the top home run hitters in your league to be worthwhile.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I will take this Maurer kid for Viciedo. Close the deal after the game.

[GreenSox]

I will take this Maurer kid for Viciedo. Close the deal after the game.

I like him too, but try for a little more.

 

They've got to be desperate for some pop.

[LDF]

I like him too, but try for a little more.

 

They've got to be desperate for some pop.

 

for the purpose of what if and who would I love from sea.

1. hitter - Patrick Kivlehan 24, at his age and in AA I always liked his makeup and stat esp since fall of last yr.

2. pit - Edwin Diaz 20, in A league,

3. cat - Tyler Marlette, 21 A league, keep picking prospects.

4. pit - T Pike AA again with picking up prospects.

 

any 2 or the 4 listed. I would not include any on the major leag roster. also there are some

prospects that I am sure that are not listed. however do you really think they, sea will allow

the sox to pick more than 1 prospects???