Return for Dunn

[Vance Law]

The guy has 12 home runs; Paulie has five. Guess what? Paulie would have 12 home runs if he had as many plate appearances as Dunn. I stand by my comment. Dunn is done. Any contender that acquires him has made a huge mistake IMO.

 

 

Geez, you are satisfied with Dunn's performance? Why? 12 home runs? If Hahn can get anybody useful for Dunn, bless Hahn. I can't imagine a contender wanting to mess with him.

 

Do you know what an .830 OPS against righties is? Do you understand why that's a good thing? Are you aware that most pitchers in baseball are right-handed?

[cabiness42]

What is the obsession with ignoring 90% of every player's performance? Judge Dunn on what he's done at the plate, not one component.

 

Dunn = .224/.365/.423 (119 wRC+)

 

Does no team need a left-handed DH/emergency 1B that hits 19% better than league average? Idk, but that should be the question or argument, not "Dunn only has 12 homers."

 

You're arguing with a guy who thinks 15/2 = 10.

[caulfield12]

They'll get a legit prospect IMO. Not anybody world-beating but someone who would be solidly top-10 in our system and a quality second piece like a reliever or someone with ceiling who is far away.

 

With Texas there is always the possibility of an expanded deal of Rios + RP which could bring in a nice return.

 

But whatever they get, if after the deal we call the Rangers and offer Leury Garcia straight-up for their Rios return they'll laugh us off the phone.

 

 

The thing is, at that point, Rios still had $20 million remaining on his contract, plus the option year (which probably won't be exercised).

 

It's sort of like the White Sox trying to trade John Danks right now and expecting much more than Leury Garcia in return.

 

What makes you think the Rangers are capable of getting more?

 

They look stupid these days, trading Kinsler for Fielder...causing so many bad feelings with Michael Young's position change/s and eventual departure, letting Nelson Cruz go only to see him return with a vengeance with the Orioles...overvaluing their middle infield prospects like Profar and Odor and promptly seeing their value fall substantially.

[Chisoxfn]

The thing is, at that point, Rios still had $20 million remaining on his contract, plus the option year (which probably won't be exercised).

 

It's sort of like the White Sox trying to trade John Danks right now and expecting much more than Leury Garcia in return.

 

What makes you think the Rangers are capable of getting more?

 

They look stupid these days, trading Kinsler for Fielder...causing so many bad feelings with Michael Young's position change/s and eventual departure, letting Nelson Cruz go only to see him return with a vengeance with the Orioles...overvaluing their middle infield prospects like Profar and Odor and promptly seeing their value fall substantially.

I bet you the Rangers get more for Rios.

[greg775]

What is the obsession with ignoring 90% of every player's performance? Judge Dunn on what he's done at the plate, not one component.

 

Dunn = .224/.365/.423 (119 wRC+)

 

Does no team need a left-handed DH/emergency 1B that hits 19% better than league average? Idk, but that should be the question or argument, not "Dunn only has 12 homers."

 

I realize Adam Dunn can draw a walk. I could say his lack of speed negates much when he does walk, but that would be controversial I'm sure. He's a power hitter who doesn't hit many home runs, that's my main comment.

You guys with the advanced stats ... I love 'em (I realize Dunn draws walks) but I will repeat my mantra: How come when I watch a baseball game I sometimes see OBP included in the graphic but never, ever do the announcers comment on such stats?? The announcers tend to make more greg-like statements than using your guys' advanced numbers. Sometimes you act like I am in the 1 percent group when I'm not.

Edited July 7, 2014 by greg775

[GreenSox]

Also if Viciedo's floor is a bad defensive 4th OF and PH while Maurer's floor is a quality RP then I think we should accept that deal and be done with it if that's the best Seattle will do.

But how can you say Maurer's floor is a high quality relief pitcher, when he's been nothing but a low quality pitcher over any sustained period of measurement thusfar? So to me, another piece is warranted.

Edited July 7, 2014 by GreenSox

[Jake]

Dunn has had a good season so far, but for several weeks he's been nothing but a hollow-but-solid OBP, which won't be enough over the long haul. Will he be the early season Dunn or the guy we saw over the next few weeks? I don't know. Just remember that not doing something (like hitting a HR or driving in a run) for a long time does not a bad season make. It makes a bad period of time, which you can argue constitutes a worrisome trend.

[Eminor3rd]

I realize Adam Dunn can draw a walk. I could say his lack of speed negates much when he does walk, but that would be controversial I'm sure. He's a power hitter who doesn't hit many home runs, that's my main comment.

You guys with the advanced stats ... I love 'em (I realize Dunn draws walks) but I will repeat my mantra: How come when I watch a baseball game I sometimes see OBP included in the graphic but never, ever do the announcers comment on such stats?? The announcers tend to make more greg-like statements than using your guys' advanced numbers. Sometimes you act like I am in the 1 percent group when I'm not.

 

How come the announcers don't go on to be general managers?

 

Also, what does any of that have to do with ignoring everything except homeruns when evaluating a player? Does Hawk do that?

Edited July 7, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[The Ultimate Champion]

But how can you say Maurer's floor is a high quality relief pitcher, when he's been nothing but a low quality pitcher over any sustained period of measurement thusfar? So to me, another piece is warranted.

I guess I mean that with his arm, if he throws strikes, he's a late inning reliever of some kind. But if he doesn't throw strikes then he's not a Major League player. You could then say that Maurer's ultimate floor is a minor league player. But then again, given Tank's atrocious defense, as an all-bat right-handed platoon bat that can't really play the field much, his ultimate floor is basically the same thing, a minor leaguer or one of those guys who bounces around team to team always making under $2M per, mostly around the minimum to $1M. So in either case you are potentially dealing with something just about worthless.

 

Still, it all depends on Coop. All you want IMO is talent out of Viciedo, not some low ceiling crap that can't even become at least a #3. Get an arm and if Coop likes him a lot and thinks he can work some magic, then you look at that deal as trading for a potential mid-to-top end of the rotation starter. If that's the player you want, and the second piece is likely to be far lesser anyway, don't get too greedy. Get the guy you want and move on.

Edited July 7, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[cabiness42]

Was somebody saying something about Dunn and home runs?

[Chicago White Sox]

What AL teams could use an upgrade at DH?

Anyone want to take a crack at this?

[Vance Law]

Anyone want to take a crack at this?

 

Yankees and Mariners among teams seemingly with a chance at the playoffs.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Dunns OPS vs RHP is up to .850 which is 35th highest in the league.

[caulfield12]

I guess I mean that with his arm, if he throws strikes, he's a late inning reliever of some kind. But if he doesn't throw strikes then he's not a Major League player. You could then say that Maurer's ultimate floor is a minor league player. But then again, given Tank's atrocious defense, as an all-bat right-handed platoon bat that can't really play the field much, his ultimate floor is basically the same thing, a minor leaguer or one of those guys who bounces around team to team always making under $2M per, mostly around the minimum to $1M. So in either case you are potentially dealing with something just about worthless.

 

Still, it all depends on Coop. All you want IMO is talent out of Viciedo, not some low ceiling crap that can't even become at least a #3. Get an arm and if Coop likes him a lot and thinks he can work some magic, then you look at that deal as trading for a potential mid-to-top end of the rotation starter. If that's the player you want, and the second piece is likely to be far lesser anyway, don't get too greedy. Get the guy you want and move on.

 

 

Viciedo doesn't have the dramatic splits vs. RHP/LHP as in years past.

 

You're basically saying he's worth less than Jeff Keppinger, Scott Downs and about the same as Paulino. Not buying it.

 

We've been able to find useful pieces in Guerra, Carroll, Putnam and Noesi without giving up a thing for them. We developed Petrick and Webb internally. Why would we give up our 3rd best power hitter and an everyday position player for that?

 

If this was a case of Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton, sure. Or Guerrier for Damaso Marte.

Edited July 8, 2014 by caulfield12

[chitownsportsfan]

Viciedo doesn't have the dramatic splits vs. RHP/LHP as in years past.

 

You're basically saying he's worth less than Jeff Keppinger, Scott Downs and about the same as Paulino. Not buying it.

 

We've been able to find useful pieces in Guerra, Carroll, Putnam and Noesi without giving up a thing for them. We developed Petrick and Webb internally. Why would we give up our 3rd best power hitter and an everyday position player for that?

 

If this was a case of Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton, sure. Or Guerrier for Damaso Marte.

 

This is like saying "why would we give up Gordon Beckham he's our 2nd best defensive infielder and an everday regular".

 

You give him up because you want to make the team better. Viciedo's upside is pretty limited because he's a two tool player (arm, power), he literally has shown nothing outside of that in almost 3 full seasons in the bigs. He's not going to suddenly turn into a great baserunner or defender or 300 hitter. If he suddenly does in Seattle then you say "forget it" because the process was good, the results let you down but that's life.

 

 

[LDF]

Viciedo doesn't have the dramatic splits vs. RHP/LHP as in years past.

 

You're basically saying he's worth less than Jeff Keppinger, Scott Downs and about the same as Paulino. Not buying it.

 

We've been able to find useful pieces in Guerra, Carroll, Putnam and Noesi without giving up a thing for them. We developed Petrick and Webb internally. Why would we give up our 3rd best power hitter and an everyday position player for that?

 

If this was a case of Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton, sure. Or Guerrier for Damaso Marte.

 

if DV can be traded for a 3 / 4 type of pitcher either in low A or a pit that is 24 / 25 and the team does not have

a spot for him.

[Leonard Zelig]

How come the announcers don't go on to be general managers?

 

Also, what does any of that have to do with ignoring everything except homeruns when evaluating a player? Does Hawk do that?

 

I don't think Hawk does that, but he was an announcer who went on to be a general manager.

[Eminor3rd]

I don't think Hawk does that, but he was an announcer who went on to be a general manager.

 

Yes, he was the GM for one disastrous season which saw 90 losses, the signings of 41-year old Steve Carlton and 37-year old George Foster, the firings of Tony La Russa and Dave Dombrowski, and the giving away of prospect Bobby Bonilla.

 

But yes, even Hawk does not evaluate a player's performance solely on a single statistic.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Balta1701]

Anyone want to take a crack at this?

In order of worst OPS from the DH spot in the league:

 

Seattle .552

Yankees .619

KC Royals .640

Cleveland .648

Oakland .705

 

 

The next batch of teams above them are all uncompetitive.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, he was the GM for one disastrous season which saw 90 losses, the signings of 41-year old Steve Carlton and 37-year old George Foster, the firings of Tony La Russa and Dave Dombrowski, and the giving away of prospect Bobby Bonilla.

 

But yes, even Hawk does not evaluate a player's performance solely on a single statistic.

More exhaggeration.

Carlton and Foster were picked up after they cleared waivers. White Sox fans for years had been calling for LaRussa's firing. Hawk did claim Bonilla as a rule 5, and traded him back to Pittsburgh for Jose DeLeon who eventually turned into Lance Johnson. Not exactly giving him away. He also traded a bunch of crap to Seattle for Ivan Calderon who was pretty productive and turned into Tim Raines.

 

His horribleness as a GM is vastly overstated. One big reason he took over was the minor league system was even worse than it is now and the organization had no depth. The team was doomed in 1986. Seaver didn't want to be in Chicago and Britt Burns who Hawk did trade, never pitched again after a stellar 1985.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Dick Allen

[The Ultimate Champion]

More exhaggeration.

Carlton and Foster were picked up after they cleared waivers. White Sox fans for years had been calling for LaRussa's firing. Hawk did claim Bonilla as a rule 5, and traded him back to Pittsburgh for Jose DeLeon who eventually turned into Lance Johnson. Not exactly giving him away. He also traded a bunch of crap to Seattle for Ivan Calderon who was pretty productive and turned into Tim Raines.

 

His horribleness as a GM is vastly overstated. One big reason he took over was the minor league system was even worse than it is now and the organization had no depth. The team was doomed in 1986. Seaver didn't want to be in Chicago and Britt Burns who Hawk did trade, never pitched again after a stellar 1985.

Thank you for this history lesson, I did not know this.

 

I think a lot about Hawk is vastly overstated, mainly when people question his knowledge of the game. The guy, as Stone says, knows the game backwards and forwards. Maybe he wasn't cut out to be a GM but neither are any of us fans. And also I'm not sure about that era but I am guessing that back then getting good video on someone was probably next to impossible given the technology and it would have been a s***load more difficult to gather current, quality scouting observations and then access all of that information when necessary. Back then I imagine being a GM was a lot more of a "he said/she said" sort of thing than the pseudoscience it has become today.

[caulfield12]

Thank you for this history lesson, I did not know this.

 

I think a lot about Hawk is vastly overstated, mainly when people question his knowledge of the game. The guy, as Stone says, knows the game backwards and forwards. Maybe he wasn't cut out to be a GM but neither are any of us fans. And also I'm not sure about that era but I am guessing that back then getting good video on someone was probably next to impossible given the technology and it would have been a s***load more difficult to gather current, quality scouting observations and then access all of that information when necessary. Back then I imagine being a GM was a lot more of a "he said/she said" sort of thing than the pseudoscience it has become today.

 

 

You trusted your scouts and network of close advisors. They were like gold.