Time to sell high on Gillaspie?

[Heads22]

He's not supposed to be good but with a guy that young there's always going to be some potential for improvement.

 

Yup. Flowers was always supposed to be a low end defensive catcher, but he's been perfectly cromulent* back there.

 

I'm in favor of using this word as much as possible.

[SCCWS]

He's not supposed to be good but with a guy that young there's always going to be some potential for improvement.

 

 

Davidson will need at least another year in AAA. Offensively he is another Tyler Flowers. He will probably hit 10-15 HR but he strikes out better than 1 out of every 3 ABs and he does not draw many walks. He is a mediocre defender probably similiar to Gillaspie. Davidson is still 23 so maybe by 2016 he figures it out.

[harfman77]

Everyone is on the market for the right price. I like Gillaspie, but would deal him tomorrow if I felt that a team was willing to provide what I deem appropriate value in return.

[witesoxfan]

Davidson will need at least another year in AAA. Offensively he is another Tyler Flowers. He will probably hit 10-15 HR but he strikes out better than 1 out of every 3 ABs and he does not draw many walks. He is a mediocre defender probably similiar to Gillaspie. Davidson is still 23 so maybe by 2016 he figures it out.

 

Yet he has 17 homers at the all-star break this year.

 

He's a 20-30 homer potential guy.

[greg775]

Davidson will need at least another year in AAA. Offensively he is another Tyler Flowers. He will probably hit 10-15 HR but he strikes out better than 1 out of every 3 ABs and he does not draw many walks. He is a mediocre defender probably similiar to Gillaspie. Davidson is still 23 so maybe by 2016 he figures it out.

 

It's funny how 23 is old in the NBA for prospects. Crazy how the two sports differ in terms of "readiness."

[witesoxfan]

It's funny how 23 is old in the NBA for prospects. Crazy how the two sports differ in terms of "readiness."

 

Basketball is a sport that depends far more upon athleticism. Football is similar for the "skill" positions, but there is more technique involved in those to some extent. Baseball, on the other hand, involves less athleticism and much more mechanics and hand eye coordination and practice. Those great athletes with well-refined skills will still be the best players, but I can't name you another sport in which Billy Butler would be even remotely considered a good player.

[LittleHurt05]

Basketball is a sport that depends far more upon athleticism. Football is similar for the "skill" positions, but there is more technique involved in those to some extent. Baseball, on the other hand, involves less athleticism and much more mechanics and hand eye coordination and practice. Those great athletes with well-refined skills will still be the best players, but I can't name you another sport in which Billy Butler would be even remotely considered a good player.

 

Golf?

[GGajewski18]

Basketball is a sport that depends far more upon athleticism. Football is similar for the "skill" positions, but there is more technique involved in those to some extent. Baseball, on the other hand, involves less athleticism and much more mechanics and hand eye coordination and practice. Those great athletes with well-refined skills will still be the best players, but I can't name you another sport in which Billy Butler would be even remotely considered a good player.

 

But you also put basketball players or football players in the batters box or in the infield, fielding a grounball, they would look incompetent.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Davidson will need at least another year in AAA. Offensively he is another Tyler Flowers. He will probably hit 10-15 HR but he strikes out better than 1 out of every 3 ABs and he does not draw many walks. He is a mediocre defender probably similiar to Gillaspie. Davidson is still 23 so maybe by 2016 he figures it out.

 

Saying Davidson has 10-15 HR potential is laughable. He clearly has 20+ potential, possibly even 30. K rates are based on K/PA not ABs. At the AAA level, his K rate is roughly 28%. That is not good, but it's not going to lead the league or anything either. His BB rate is fine. At the AAA level it is roughly 9%. That would be higher than anybody on the Sox current roster not named Adam Dunn.

 

I honestly think part of Davidson's problem this year is that the disappointment of not making the roster has caused his issues. I really felt like he was ready to be the opening day starter.

Edited July 18, 2014 by lasttriptotulsa

[witesoxfan]

But you also put basketball players or football players in the batters box or in the infield, fielding a grounball, they would look incompetent.

 

Absolutely. It's why you so rarely see guys jump straight from the draft to the pros, whereas you see rookies in the NFL and NBA excel and sometimes even dominate immediately.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Basketball is a sport that depends far more upon athleticism. Football is similar for the "skill" positions, but there is more technique involved in those to some extent. Baseball, on the other hand, involves less athleticism and much more mechanics and hand eye coordination and practice. Those great athletes with well-refined skills will still be the best players, but I can't name you another sport in which Billy Butler would be even remotely considered a good player.

There are a ton of baseball comparisons that can be made to combat sports. In combat sports, like baseball, athletic ability plays an enormous part in separating equally conditioned, equally skilled, and/or equally experienced competitors with equal attitudes and work ethics, but that highly physical athletic ability like raw speed and lateral or vertical explosion on its own never gets you anything special. Also the hand/eye coordination and the ability to anticipate and to make a decision and react in a split second without thinking, that is pretty much everything at the top of the combat sports food chain where everyone is highly skilled and experienced.

 

I like the Tyrus Thomas example. Tyrus made some money in the NBA because athletically the guy was a freak. I imagine he could have made some money in football too. I'm not sure there's any other major sport here where he could have made anything. And I doubt he'd have ever risen above AA even if he had played baseball his whole life.

 

That said I think the prototypical best athlete in the world is probably a highly skilled point guard in the NBA. Has to be fast, explosive, strong, just very physically gifted all around, but he also has to make a lot of decisions and has little time and space to make them against highly defensive teams, and then the conditioning of course has to be top notch, along with the ability to anticipate or "feel" his range and the hand-eye coordination to hit a long 3 or switch hands on a layup avoiding multiple defenders in traffic. And this now makes me think how underappreciated Derrick Rose probably is/was purely as an athlete.

[NorthSideSox72]

You have to start with these questions:

 

1. Is Davidson ready?

2. Can Davidson provide, all things considered, above average offensive production at 3B/

 

When you can say yes to both (or at least, yes and probably), then you have two paths for Gillaspie:

 

1. Trade him

2. Keep him as the backup 3B/1B/DH

 

So really, it comes down to a value proposition. If you keep him, his salaries will likely be along the lines of: 600k, 900k, 1M, 1M+ for the next four years. Could be higher on the back end, depends. If he can hit against righties almost exclusively, maybe gets 200-300 PA across 1B/3B/DH and occasional PH, given his track record, that does provide positive value.

 

As far as "fit", think about this, for 2015 and the future. Davidson at 3B and Abreu at 1B are likely to be fixtures. The DH could be Viciedo, or someone new, or maybe even Rangel Ravelo. Notice something in that list? Other than the wildcard, those guys all hit right-handed. Makes Conor a nice "fit" for a LH bat on the bench. Think of a hitter similar to Ross Gload, maybe a little better, but plays both corners instead of 1B and sort of OF.

 

What this all means is, you trade Conor if your return provides more value to the Sox than his positive value in that limited role. That value isn't super-high, but it is notable. If you get prospects/players of greater value and/or conditioned potential value (i.e. a prospect in AA with a 50% chance of being an average every day player, do the math), you do the trade.

 

Now that you have a value proposition, the next question is, who could use Conor? If all a team needs is someone for a similar role that the Sox likely use him in for 2015, then you aren't likely to get a good trade unless a team desperate for offense on a playoff run overpays a bit. If on the other hand another team has a real lack of starting grade 3B currently or upper level in the minors, then you can likely get more value to make it worth it, because Gillaspie becomes more valuable to them than the Sox. So...

 

1. What teams making a playoff push could use a LHH corner guy, who also have some decent prospects they may be willing to go over-value with?

2. What teams have a below average starting 3B and no likely above average 3B in the upper levels of their farm?

 

The combined answers to those 2 questions give you your candidate teams. Then you can start coming up with a list of demands.

 

[SCCWS]

Saying Davidson has 10-15 HR potential is laughable. He clearly has 20+ potential, possibly even 30. K rates are based on K/PA not ABs. At the AAA level, his K rate is roughly 28%. That is not good, but it's not going to lead the league or anything either. His BB rate is fine. At the AAA level it is roughly 9%. That would be higher than anybody on the Sox current roster not named Adam Dunn.

 

I honestly think part of Davidson's problem this year is that the disappointment of not making the roster has caused his issues. I really felt like he was ready to be the opening day starter.\

 

 

Wait a minute. You are taking his 25 home runs ( projected ) at AAA and assuming he will hit the same in the majors. I doubt that. Now if he strikes out at a 30% clip at AAA and hits .220 how does that project against ML pitching. Again Tyler Flowers had better numbers in average and RBI's in AAA, also in Charlotte, and it didn't project well. Take a look at Jordan Danks numbers in AAA. He will hit 20 HR in Charlotte this year so you would project him to hit that many in the majors???

 

Regarding walks. Tyler Flowers in AAA-13.5%. This year in ML 6%. Again Davidson is only 23 but he is still not hitting his weight in AAA.

[witesoxfan]

There are a ton of baseball comparisons that can be made to combat sports. In combat sports, like baseball, athletic ability plays an enormous part in separating equally conditioned, equally skilled, and/or equally experienced competitors with equal attitudes and work ethics, but that highly physical athletic ability like raw speed and lateral or vertical explosion on its own never gets you anything special. Also the hand/eye coordination and the ability to anticipate and to make a decision and react in a split second without thinking, that is pretty much everything at the top of the combat sports food chain where everyone is highly skilled and experienced.

 

I like the Tyrus Thomas example. Tyrus made some money in the NBA because athletically the guy was a freak. I imagine he could have made some money in football too. I'm not sure there's any other major sport here where he could have made anything. And I doubt he'd have ever risen above AA even if he had played baseball his whole life.

 

That said I think the prototypical best athlete in the world is probably a highly skilled point guard in the NBA. Has to be fast, explosive, strong, just very physically gifted all around, but he also has to make a lot of decisions and has little time and space to make them against highly defensive teams, and then the conditioning of course has to be top notch, along with the ability to anticipate or "feel" his range and the hand-eye coordination to hit a long 3 or switch hands on a layup avoiding multiple defenders in traffic. And this now makes me think how underappreciated Derrick Rose probably is/was purely as an athlete.

 

This is a great tangent that has been started and late on a Friday afternoon, I am thankful for it.

 

Off the top of my head, the best athlete I can think of in the United States is LeBron James. When I think of athleticism, I think of things that were, for lack of a better term, gifted to a person. Speed, strength, explosiveness, yes, all those are gifts, but height is too. LeBron James is the embodiment of all those things you mention, plus he is tall.

 

Another off topic point, but I just compared LeBron James to Calvin Johnson in my head, and it's ridiculous. James is taller, bigger, faster, and stronger than Calvin Johnson. Seriously, take a second and think about LeBron James in the NFL. He'd have to refine his route running, obviously, but he would be an absolute terror on offense.

[greg775]

Saying Davidson has 10-15 HR potential is laughable. He clearly has 20+ potential, possibly even 30. K rates are based on K/PA not ABs. At the AAA level, his K rate is roughly 28%. That is not good, but it's not going to lead the league or anything either. His BB rate is fine. At the AAA level it is roughly 9%. That would be higher than anybody on the Sox current roster not named Adam Dunn.

 

I honestly think part of Davidson's problem this year is that the disappointment of not making the roster has caused his issues. I really felt like he was ready to be the opening day starter.

 

This last paragraph is just crazy. The excuses we fans make up for ballplayers. That is ridiculous speculation that his horrid season has been caused by disappointment of not making the big league club. The guy obviously has holes in his swing big time. If you are right, then you are the greatest baseball mind of all time. I just think it's an excuse for a guy sucking thus far.

Edited July 18, 2014 by greg775

[Eminor3rd]

I love the "overall best athlete" debate. I have a friend who argues with me constantly about it.

 

We both agree that the best individual is probably LeBron, but we disagree in the aggregate. I say it's NFL Wide Receivers, he says it's NBA Small Forwards. Both of us think that strength is a big part of the equation, much moreso than those who think soccer players are the best.

[greg775]

Absolutely. It's why you so rarely see guys jump straight from the draft to the pros, whereas you see rookies in the NFL and NBA excel and sometimes even dominate immediately.

 

But I hate this treatment of baseball players' psyches as being so fragile they need seasoning. What about these 19 year old NBA rookies' psyches? Nobody gives a s*** about them. You think Ben McLemore was ready for the NBA grind? Or most first rounders who suck? They are not ready yet that sport rushes them in with no time in the DLeague unless they are so awful they have to be sent down a while. People still give Beckham a crutch for being "rushed." The babying of baseball players sickens me.

They don't need 5 years in the minor leagues if they can play.

[witesoxfan]

I love the "overall best athlete" debate. I have a friend who argues with me constantly about it.

 

We both agree that the best individual is probably LeBron, but we disagree in the aggregate. I say it's NFL Wide Receivers, he says it's NBA Small Forwards. Both of us think that strength is a big part of the equation, much moreso than those who think soccer players are the best.

 

How about NFL Tight Ends?

 

But I hate this treatment of baseball players' psyches as being so fragile they need seasoning. What about these 19 year old NBA rookies' psyches? Nobody gives a s*** about them. You think Ben McLemore was ready for the NBA grind? Or most first rounders who suck? They are not ready yet that sport rushes them in with no time in the DLeague unless they are so awful they have to be sent down a while. People still give Beckham a crutch for being "rushed." The babying of baseball players sickens me.

They don't need 5 years in the minor leagues if they can play.

 

This has nothing to do with psyches. Baseball players don't go to the minors or college to work on their psyches. They go there because they couldn't hack it in the majors. Had the Sox called up Courtney Hawkins to the MLB last year, one full calendar year after being drafted, he would have hit .100 with 3 homers and 150 strike outs in 300 plate appearances. They play against progressively tougher competition to improve themselves.

 

And yes, baseball players do sometimes need 5 years in the minors. Sometimes they need even more than that. There's no rushing or babying going on.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Before he got hurt a couple years ago, if someone asked me to name the best *current* athlete in the world that I had ever seen compete I probably would have said UFC Bantamweight Champ Dominick Cruz, and probably no one would have agreed with me. In fact he's white, how could a white guy be the best athlete in the world?

 

It's a fact that the mind and body are one and act on each other all of the time, and I think the mind is way too often overlooked as a key component of an athlete. That's one of the reasons people seem to s*** on baseball players as athletes because they can't appreciate the level of extreme control your mind must have over your body to barrell up a 96mph fastball in a fraction of a second really after you pick it up or to spot a fastball off the mound or locate a sharp breaking ball roughly where you need to throw it. Also, the extreme level of control you must have over your mind in pressure situations or to get through a slump, this is the kind of thing that takes a player like a Tyrus Thomas with an athletic ceiling of a superstar and b****slaps him down to inconsistent role player. What I like about combat sports is that just like baseball you have to think, react, control your mind *and* body, and you only have a fraction of time and space to operate, and if you f*** up then you are the one that gets KTFOd or at least put in a very bad spot, and none of your training partners or coaches or teammates can do anything to help you.

 

The thing about Cruz was that cardio-wise he was off the charts, he maintained the type of pace that would be very rare even for terrific endurance athletes. I'll never be a great athlete but I'm a runner, because there's such a mental aspect there that is so badass to get under control, and when you see a guy like that just go go go beyond anything you could ever do it's inspiring. And the way he would just f*** with his opponents, he'd always be in range but they couldn't hit him, he could take them down but they couldn't get him down, he could land knees, kicks, punches forward and back, everything was in combos, always was new and interesting and impossible for the opponent to figure out. He could fight everywhere, and get the better of it everywhere. He was very explosive athletically, but probably not super fast in a straight line race, and strong in terms of leverage and body control but probably not weight lifter strong, so he definitely wouldn't put up numbers in some NFL combine or something. But I'd probably have to throw a guy like that out there in the convo as "best athlete" because the areas in which he is truly elite are far more functional in real life (and impressive to me personally) than short-burst superhuman acts or doing the same things over and over and mastering them. A fighter needs to always be ready to instantly react to a thousand different possibilities and the consequences of an "error" or whatever come at his own peril.

 

All that said, I would undoubtedly say that the most game-changing athlete in any sport is LeBron in basketball. I imagine he's probably more head and shoulders above his peers than anyone else is in any other sport, but part of that I think just simply has to do with height and how the game scales up. You could be an amazing athlete in every stat that matters but if you're under 6' you're probably not going to play in the NBA. There have of course been exceptions but those are really too few to consider seriously. And I'm inclined to agree with Hawk whenever he talks about a short player, "anybody can play this game." And that's one of the things that is great about baseball, because the skills of the small guys make their statures a positive and when those skills are in abundance they become a weapon for a manager that the opposition just can't match.

Edited July 18, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[BigHurt3515]

It's amazing how quickly threads can turn into something irrelevant to the original topic

[The Ultimate Champion]

How about NFL Tight Ends?

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with psyches. Baseball players don't go to the minors or college to work on their psyches. They go there because they couldn't hack it in the majors. Had the Sox called up Courtney Hawkins to the MLB last year, one full calendar year after being drafted, he would have hit .100 with 3 homers and 150 strike outs in 300 plate appearances. They play against progressively tougher competition to improve themselves.

 

And yes, baseball players do sometimes need 5 years in the minors. Sometimes they need even more than that. There's no rushing or babying going on.

In other sports there are roles for the pure athlete more than in baseball. The closest I can think of is probably Joey Gathright who IIRC some scout famously spotted in some city neighborhood running & jumping over cars almost like out of a scene in Major League ala Willy Mays Hayes. He was a glorified PR, but he's also an example of why you need to be not just fast but a very good baserunner (Jerry Owens comes immediately to mind). Maybe if baseball expanded the rosters to 26 some teams would try to take a player like that, but I doubt it, they'd probably just take a reliever or a platoon/bench bat. There really isn't a place for a player like that in baseball, and so in short, you can't hide him as your 3rd center or whatever where you tell him to go out there and be tall. The only real solution is to go through the minors and learn how to play baseball. And if you get to the Majors & it doesn't work then you quit or go back.

 

This is also kind of why I think Micah is our #1 position prospect. I love the combination of mental aspect/mind and one exciting, potentially game-changing tool. And I think the rest of his offensive game sets his floor as a starting player. I'm just a big fan of this kid & I hope he's able to make it. Even as a LFer I think he has the chance to be an excellent player for us should his offensive game turn out.

[The Ultimate Champion]

It's amazing how quickly threads can turn into something irrelevant to the original topic

The topic sucks anyway. Davidson is a minor leaguer who took a huge step back and still Ks for the world, and we want to trade Gillaspie?

 

No.

 

No we don't.

 

Let's hope Davidson builds enough value to get us a nice RHSP prospect or something, now that would be great for us.

[witesoxfan]

In other sports there are roles for the pure athlete more than in baseball. The closest I can think of is probably Joey Gathright who IIRC some scout famously spotted in some city neighborhood running & jumping over cars almost like out of a scene in Major League ala Willy Mays Hayes. He was a glorified PR, but he's also an example of why you need to be not just fast but a very good baserunner (Jerry Owens comes immediately to mind). Maybe if baseball expanded the rosters to 26 some teams would try to take a player like that, but I doubt it, they'd probably just take a reliever or a platoon/bench bat. There really isn't a place for a player like that in baseball, and so in short, you can't hide him as your 3rd center or whatever where you tell him to go out there and be tall. The only real solution is to go through the minors and learn how to play baseball. And if you get to the Majors & it doesn't work then you quit or go back.

 

This is also kind of why I think Micah is our #1 position prospect. I love the combination of mental aspect/mind and one exciting, potentially game-changing tool. And I think the rest of his offensive game sets his floor as a starting player. I'm just a big fan of this kid & I hope he's able to make it. Even as a LFer I think he has the chance to be an excellent player for us should his offensive game turn out.

 

Ever hear of Herb Washington? It's exactly what you're discussing here.

 

Also, threads devolve, and if I get time later I may split this off, but I'm almost done with work and have plans tonight, so I won't be able to split it out till later (and I may completely forget about it entirely).

[NorthSideSox72]

It's amazing how quickly threads can turn into something irrelevant to the original topic

I tried to bring it back. I think my post was too long.

 

[Eminor3rd]

Before he got hurt a couple years ago, if someone asked me to name the best *current* athlete in the world that I had ever seen compete I probably would have said UFC Bantamweight Champ Dominick Cruz, and probably no one would have agreed with me. In fact he's white, how could a white guy be the best athlete in the world?

 

It's a fact that the mind and body are one and act on each other all of the time, and I think the mind is way too often overlooked as a key component of an athlete. That's one of the reasons people seem to s*** on baseball players as athletes because they can't appreciate the level of extreme control your mind must have over your body to barrell up a 96mph fastball in a fraction of a second really after you pick it up or to spot a fastball off the mound or locate a sharp breaking ball roughly where you need to throw it. Also, the extreme level of control you must have over your mind in pressure situations or to get through a slump, this is the kind of thing that takes a player like a Tyrus Thomas with an athletic ceiling of a superstar and b****slaps him down to inconsistent role player. What I like about combat sports is that just like baseball you have to think, react, control your mind *and* body, and you only have a fraction of time and space to operate, and if you f*** up then you are the one that gets KTFOd or at least put in a very bad spot, and none of your training partners or coaches or teammates can do anything to help you.

 

The thing about Cruz was that cardio-wise he was off the charts, he maintained the type of pace that would be very rare even for terrific endurance athletes. I'll never be a great athlete but I'm a runner, because there's such a mental aspect there that is so badass to get under control, and when you see a guy like that just go go go beyond anything you could ever do it's inspiring. And the way he would just f*** with his opponents, he'd always be in range but they couldn't hit him, he could take them down but they couldn't get him down, he could land knees, kicks, punches forward and back, everything was in combos, always was new and interesting and impossible for the opponent to figure out. He could fight everywhere, and get the better of it everywhere. He was very explosive athletically, but probably not super fast in a straight line race, and strong in terms of leverage and body control but probably not weight lifter strong, so he definitely wouldn't put up numbers in some NFL combine or something. But I'd probably have to throw a guy like that out there in the convo as "best athlete" because the areas in which he is truly elite are far more functional in real life (and impressive to me personally) than short-burst superhuman acts or doing the same things over and over and mastering them. A fighter needs to always be ready to instantly react to a thousand different possibilities and the consequences of an "error" or whatever come at his own peril.

 

All that said, I would undoubtedly say that the most game-changing athlete in any sport is LeBron in basketball. I imagine he's probably more head and shoulders above his peers than anyone else is in any other sport, but part of that I think just simply has to do with height and how the game scales up. You could be an amazing athlete in every stat that matters but if you're under 6' you're probably not going to play in the NBA. There have of course been exceptions but those are really too few to consider seriously. And I'm inclined to agree with Hawk whenever he talks about a short player, "anybody can play this game." And that's one of the things that is great about baseball, because the skills of the small guys make their statures a positive and when those skills are in abundance they become a weapon for a manager that the opposition just can't match.

 

An excellent argument. You're so obviously NOT drunk

 

The thing about LeBron and height: that's exactly it, except it's amazing because most guys that are that big are lumbering, uncoordinated, and injury-prone. The COST of raw size is typically very steep, but it just doesn't seem to apply to him. He's like a scaled-up point guard. It defies physics -- his bodily infrastructure should be suffering for the stress of his mass at the speeds he is able to move.

 

It's amazing how quickly threads can turn into something irrelevant to the original topic

 

It is a common characteristic of a conversation.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Eminor3rd