Flowers and his magic glasses

[WKamm]

I don't care how well he's hitting. I will never like Tyler Flowers.

[ron883]

I don't care how well he's hitting. I will never like Tyler Flowers.

You and greg will be good friends

Edited August 6, 2014 by ron883

[witesoxfan]

I don't care how well he's hitting. I will never like Tyler Flowers.

 

"Bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, Sox down 1, Semien leads off first, and Flowers swings AND THERE'S A DRIVE, WAY BACK TO LEFT FIELD, AND IT'S GONE! THE WHITE SOX HAVE WON THE WORLD SERIES ON A WALK OFF 2-RUN HOMER BY TYLER FLOWERS! IT'S TOO BAD WKAMM SAID HE'D NEVER LIKE TYLER FLOWERS BECAUSE THIS IS AN ACT OF LEGENDS."

[greg775]

I don't care how well he's hitting. I will never like Tyler Flowers.

 

Really? Watch the replays of those 3 bombs he hit that everybody's been talking about. Sports are supposed to be fun and with this team you have to enjoy certain things as they come.

[max power]

Flowers on pace for just under 2 WAR.

That doesn't seem bad.

[Balta1701]

Really? Watch the replays of those 3 bombs he hit that everybody's been talking about. Sports are supposed to be fun and with this team you have to enjoy certain things as they come.

How do you feel about Adam Dunn?

[southsider2k5]

Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN 39m

 

Per @baseball_ref, Tyler Flowers has now thrown out 22 of 67 base stealers (32.8 percent). League average is 28 percent.

[Feeky Magee]

3 for his last 25 (.120) with a walk and 7 strikeouts

[southsider2k5]

Most predictable post ever.

[Feeky Magee]

Just to continue the predictability, for both me and him, 4 for his last 36 (.111) with a walk and 13 strikeouts

[greg775]

Just to continue the predictability, for both me and him, 4 for his last 36 (.111) with a walk and 13 strikeouts

 

It's crazy how bad he is again after that streak of Babe Ruth-ism.

[Dick Allen]

Just to continue the predictability, for both me and him, 4 for his last 36 (.111) with a walk and 13 strikeouts

BABIP under .200. Very unlucky.

[witesoxfan]

To try and put out the fire before it starts, Flowers' current BABIP of .353 isn't entirely unreasonable - 72.8% of the balls he's putting in play right now are line drives or ground balls, which are your highest percentage of balls in play that will result in base hits. It may be a little high, but it's not outrageous. I also think there's probably some room for organic growth within his line - his power numbers are down this year and while some of that may be conscious effort, some of it could also improve as he continues to get more experience.

 

He does have an fWAR of 1.2 this year (for what that's worth to people). Among catchers with 350 plate appearances, that number puts him right in line with offseason darlings Jason Castro (1.5 fWAR), Brian McCann (1.2), and Dioner Navarro (1.1), as well as Alex Avila (1.5). Frankly, I have no problem with what Tyler has done this year. There are better catchers, but I agree with Hahn that he could absolutely be the starting catcher on a winning team.

 

(this also marks the 2nd straight season I was completely wrong about Flowers)

[GGajewski18]

To try and put out the fire before it starts, Flowers' current BABIP of .353 isn't entirely unreasonable - 72.8% of the balls he's putting in play right now are line drives or ground balls, which are your highest percentage of balls in play that will result in base hits. It may be a little high, but it's not outrageous. I also think there's probably some room for organic growth within his line - his power numbers are down this year and while some of that may be conscious effort, some of it could also improve as he continues to get more experience.

 

He does have an fWAR of 1.2 this year (for what that's worth to people). Among catchers with 350 plate appearances, that number puts him right in line with offseason darlings Jason Castro (1.5 fWAR), Brian McCann (1.2), and Dioner Navarro (1.1), as well as Alex Avila (1.5). Frankly, I have no problem with what Tyler has done this year. There are better catchers, but I agree with Hahn that he could absolutely be the starting catcher on a winning team.

 

(this also marks the 2nd straight season I was completely wrong about Flowers)

 

I agree with everything you have said. Like I said yesterday, if Flowers can maintain a BA between 240-250 with 10+ HRs and 50+ RBIs out of the 9 hole with his familiarity with the pitching staff, I'll take it. With this, there is no point of wasting valuable assets to acquire a catcher that Flowers has had equally a decent year.

[southsider2k5]

To try and put out the fire before it starts, Flowers' current BABIP of .353 isn't entirely unreasonable - 72.8% of the balls he's putting in play right now are line drives or ground balls, which are your highest percentage of balls in play that will result in base hits. It may be a little high, but it's not outrageous. I also think there's probably some room for organic growth within his line - his power numbers are down this year and while some of that may be conscious effort, some of it could also improve as he continues to get more experience.

 

He does have an fWAR of 1.2 this year (for what that's worth to people). Among catchers with 350 plate appearances, that number puts him right in line with offseason darlings Jason Castro (1.5 fWAR), Brian McCann (1.2), and Dioner Navarro (1.1), as well as Alex Avila (1.5). Frankly, I have no problem with what Tyler has done this year. There are better catchers, but I agree with Hahn that he could absolutely be the starting catcher on a winning team.

 

(this also marks the 2nd straight season I was completely wrong about Flowers)

 

[Dropsmic,walksoffstage]

[hogan873]

One thing I think we've all learned about Flowers is that he's streaky. Overall, though, he's looked better this year than in past years. I agree with a couple of the previous posters in saying that if Flowers can end up being a .240+ hitter with some power, I'll take that along with his pretty good defense and familiarity with the staff.

 

Another thing I've learned is that you can count on this thread being bumped or a new thread being created every time Flowers goes on a hot or cold streak.

[Dick Allen]

One thing I think we've all learned about Flowers is that he's streaky. Overall, though, he's looked better this year than in past years. I agree with a couple of the previous posters in saying that if Flowers can end up being a .240+ hitter with some power, I'll take that along with his pretty good defense and familiarity with the staff.

 

Another thing I've learned is that you can count on this thread being bumped or a new thread being created every time Flowers goes on a hot or cold streak.

Frankly, I think he's too streaky. Almost everyone is streaky to a certain extent, but if Flowers is going to get all his numbers out of 6 weeks total and the rest of the time be a pitcher at the plate, he really isn't capable of being a catcher on a winning team. But the hot streak does show he has the ability.

[Feeky Magee]

To try and put out the fire before it starts, Flowers' current BABIP of .353 isn't entirely unreasonable - 72.8% of the balls he's putting in play right now are line drives or ground balls, which are your highest percentage of balls in play that will result in base hits. It may be a little high, but it's not outrageous. I also think there's probably some room for organic growth within his line - his power numbers are down this year and while some of that may be conscious effort, some of it could also improve as he continues to get more experience.

 

He does have an fWAR of 1.2 this year (for what that's worth to people). Among catchers with 350 plate appearances, that number puts him right in line with offseason darlings Jason Castro (1.5 fWAR), Brian McCann (1.2), and Dioner Navarro (1.1), as well as Alex Avila (1.5). Frankly, I have no problem with what Tyler has done this year. There are better catchers, but I agree with Hahn that he could absolutely be the starting catcher on a winning team.

 

(this also marks the 2nd straight season I was completely wrong about Flowers)

Actually a reasonable amount of this is true. His xBABIP, i.e. what his BABIP should be given normal luck, is .332. He has put 201 balls in play this year, for 71 non-HR hits. Regressing for normal luck would give him a line of about .226/.286/.344 as opposed to his current line of .237/.297/.359. The problem is (apart from that not being very good), though xBABIP might show that he deserves a higher BABIP than normal, this is mainly because his line drive rate is higher, and line drive rates tend to regress to career average too. Tyler had LD% of 16.2%, 17.7% and 17.2% before this year's 23.3%. I'd imagine that LD% will look more like the former than the latter next year.

 

One thing I will say though, is that I was using the lesser form of pitch framing, and having moved to the better one, Tyler actually rates very well (which would jive more with his knowledge of the area).

[witesoxfan]

Actually a reasonable amount of this is true. His xBABIP, i.e. what his BABIP should be given normal luck, is .332. He has put 201 balls in play this year, for 71 non-HR hits. Regressing for normal luck would give him a line of about .226/.286/.344 as opposed to his current line of .237/.297/.359. The problem is (apart from that not being very good), though xBABIP might show that he deserves a higher BABIP than normal, this is mainly because his line drive rate is higher, and line drive rates tend to regress to career average too. Tyler had LD% of 16.2%, 17.7% and 17.2% before this year's 23.3%. I'd imagine that LD% will look more like the former than the latter next year.

 

One thing I will say though, is that I was using the lesser form of pitch framing, and having moved to the better one, Tyler actually rates very well (which would jive more with his knowledge of the area).

 

There has been a distinct change in approach and philosophy for Tyler at the plate, which represents a talent change and shift. It's certainly possible that the line drive rate comes down, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see it remain in the 20% range either.

[caulfield12]

He also has the 29th OPS out of 33 MLB catchers with over 200 PA's.

 

Right ahead of AJ.

 

In terms of WAR, he's something like 20th.

 

Let's not kid ourselves that he's anything close to an "average" catcher quite yet.

 

Now, that said, if the choice is keeping Tyler Flowers and paying Russell Martin $48 million, then I'm all for keeping Flowers for one more season until a clear upgrade can be found that's not prohibitively expensive in terms of talent traded away or a bad contract on the back end (see Brian McCann).

[southsider2k5]

One thing I think we've all learned about Flowers is that he's streaky. Overall, though, he's looked better this year than in past years. I agree with a couple of the previous posters in saying that if Flowers can end up being a .240+ hitter with some power, I'll take that along with his pretty good defense and familiarity with the staff.

 

Another thing I've learned is that you can count on this thread being bumped or a new thread being created every time Flowers goes on a hot or cold streak.

 

The reality is that a guy that hits .250 doesn't get a hit every 4th AB. He'll streak at .350 for a while and .150 for a while, and it will balance out to .250.

[caulfield12]

Forget about .250, I'd rather have the .225 Flowers with 18-22 homers than the .250ish Flowers with just 8-10.

[witesoxfan]

Forget about .250, I'd rather have the .225 Flowers with 18-22 homers than the .250ish Flowers with just 8-10.

 

Except that we've seen that the Tyler Flowers that can hit 18-22 home runs is more like a .180-.200 hitter.

 

I think the Sox will seek an upgrade, but they won't spend an absurd amount on one.

[hogan873]

The reality is that a guy that hits .250 doesn't get a hit every 4th AB. He'll streak at .350 for a while and .150 for a while, and it will balance out to .250.

True. Average vs. normal. My point was that Flowers seems to be more streaky than others who might hit .250. He definitely seems like the kind of player who goes on a .400 tear then follows it up with a prolonged stretch of .150.

[Rowand44]

If we can find something for him that will be magical every year and give him a few weeks of confidence then I'm all for keeping him.