Is Ventura the worst manager in the history of MLB?

[JoshPR]

Robin Ventura:

1 step behind the action

2 steps behind the fans watching

3 steps behind the announcers calling the game

4 steps behind the opposing manager

5 steps behind some Monday morning quarterbacks at sox talk..

[witesoxfan]

Joe Maddon is a pretty good basball manager. He did the exact same thing the other night against the Red Sox. He pinch ran for James Loney but only after he got to 2nd base. The Red Sox color man ( Remy) noted that some managers will pull a starter for a runner from 2nd but not first late in a game.

 

I have not participated in this at all until this point, but if you pinch run for a guy on first base, a ground ball wipes him out and then you lose the roster space and replace a good hitter with a poor hitter. If you pinch run with a runner on 2nd, you can control it a bit better. If there's a runner on first, teams will typically go to 2nd first to try and force a double play. You aren't wasting it per se.

[VAfan]

I have a question:

 

Does anyone on this thread who is defending Robin Ventura think that he is a GOOD manager, i.e., one who helps the Sox win more games than they would with an AVERAGE manager?

 

I'm firmly in the camp that he's a BAD manager, by which I mean he costs the team games. Aside from the game in question, I've seen multiple games where I think his strategic decisions have cost games, and I don't actually see that many Sox games living in Virginia.

 

I think the only reason Robin seemed to do well his first season was that he was the anti-Ozzie. The team was done with Ozzie's antics, and the veteran team we had then responded well to a little peace and quiet.

 

Going forward, I can't see the Sox winning under Robin. I believe he does a very bad job managing the bullpen, even given the fact that our bullpen is not good. And that, to me, it probably the most important tactical day-to-day job for a manager. He is also often caught not thinking ahead, as is evidenced by the game analysis in this thread. Plus, he comes off as having ZERO energy. This was okay in the year after Ozzie, but since then he comes off as indifferent, sleeping, lethargic, uninterested, etc. The problem is that he's a Sox ICON, which means he's going to be given far too long to manage.

 

Lastly, this week the Hall of Fame recognized two iconic managers -- Tony LaRussa and Bobby Cox. Anyone here see any of their managing qualities in Robin Ventura? I didn't think so.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

More than anything, a manager has to be someone the players like and respect, and the manager has to back his players whether or not he agrees with what they're arguing or they're pissed about. He has to be a guy that pulls guys aside and tells them the what-for. You can crucify any manager you want for stupid stuff they do - LaRussa had the pitcher bat 8th on multiple occasions, which goes against all logic, and had an infatuation with hustle guys who didn't have the talent some others and thus, weren't as good.

 

Bobby Cox had a managerial record of 266-323 in his first 4 seasons as manager of the Braves. It's a good thing people decided that he wasn't a washed up nobody as a manager at that point in time.

 

I'm not about to come on here and say that Robin Ventura is the best manager in the league or that he makes good decisions all the time, but he takes a little too much flak on here because he's the current manager.

[southsider2k5]

I have a question:

 

Does anyone on this thread who is defending Robin Ventura think that he is a GOOD manager, i.e., one who helps the Sox win more games than they would with an AVERAGE manager?

 

I'm firmly in the camp that he's a BAD manager, by which I mean he costs the team games. Aside from the game in question, I've seen multiple games where I think his strategic decisions have cost games, and I don't actually see that many Sox games living in Virginia.

 

I think the only reason Robin seemed to do well his first season was that he was the anti-Ozzie. The team was done with Ozzie's antics, and the veteran team we had then responded well to a little peace and quiet.

 

Going forward, I can't see the Sox winning under Robin. I believe he does a very bad job managing the bullpen, even given the fact that our bullpen is not good. And that, to me, it probably the most important tactical day-to-day job for a manager. He is also often caught not thinking ahead, as is evidenced by the game analysis in this thread. Plus, he comes off as having ZERO energy. This was okay in the year after Ozzie, but since then he comes off as indifferent, sleeping, lethargic, uninterested, etc. The problem is that he's a Sox ICON, which means he's going to be given far too long to manage.

 

Lastly, this week the Hall of Fame recognized two iconic managers -- Tony LaRussa and Bobby Cox. Anyone here see any of their managing qualities in Robin Ventura? I didn't think so.

 

 

Apparently that has nothing to do with the top 3 guys out of last years pen being hurt or gone, and the pen actually being bad? Please.

 

[Dick Allen]

I have a question:

 

Does anyone on this thread who is defending Robin Ventura think that he is a GOOD manager, i.e., one who helps the Sox win more games than they would with an AVERAGE manager?

 

I'm firmly in the camp that he's a BAD manager, by which I mean he costs the team games. Aside from the game in question, I've seen multiple games where I think his strategic decisions have cost games, and I don't actually see that many Sox games living in Virginia.

 

I think the only reason Robin seemed to do well his first season was that he was the anti-Ozzie. The team was done with Ozzie's antics, and the veteran team we had then responded well to a little peace and quiet.

 

Going forward, I can't see the Sox winning under Robin. I believe he does a very bad job managing the bullpen, even given the fact that our bullpen is not good. And that, to me, it probably the most important tactical day-to-day job for a manager. He is also often caught not thinking ahead, as is evidenced by the game analysis in this thread. Plus, he comes off as having ZERO energy. This was okay in the year after Ozzie, but since then he comes off as indifferent, sleeping, lethargic, uninterested, etc. The problem is that he's a Sox ICON, which means he's going to be given far too long to manage.

 

Lastly, this week the Hall of Fame recognized two iconic managers -- Tony LaRussa and Bobby Cox. Anyone here see any of their managing qualities in Robin Ventura? I didn't think so.

I always love the zero energy argument. Yeah, you're there you know. 3 HOF managers: LaRussa was 70-90 his second year, and was under .500 after 3 1/3 seasons, Torre was over 100 games under .500 his first 3+ years. Cox first 3 years he was over 50 under. What idiots they must have been. They let those guys manage far too long, just like with Robin.

[RockRaines]

I have a question:

 

Does anyone on this thread who is defending Robin Ventura think that he is a GOOD manager, i.e., one who helps the Sox win more games than they would with an AVERAGE manager?

 

I'm firmly in the camp that he's a BAD manager, by which I mean he costs the team games. Aside from the game in question, I've seen multiple games where I think his strategic decisions have cost games, and I don't actually see that many Sox games living in Virginia.

 

I think the only reason Robin seemed to do well his first season was that he was the anti-Ozzie. The team was done with Ozzie's antics, and the veteran team we had then responded well to a little peace and quiet.

 

Going forward, I can't see the Sox winning under Robin. I believe he does a very bad job managing the bullpen, even given the fact that our bullpen is not good. And that, to me, it probably the most important tactical day-to-day job for a manager. He is also often caught not thinking ahead, as is evidenced by the game analysis in this thread. Plus, he comes off as having ZERO energy. This was okay in the year after Ozzie, but since then he comes off as indifferent, sleeping, lethargic, uninterested, etc. The problem is that he's a Sox ICON, which means he's going to be given far too long to manage.

 

Lastly, this week the Hall of Fame recognized two iconic managers -- Tony LaRussa and Bobby Cox. Anyone here see any of their managing qualities in Robin Ventura? I didn't think so.

How many games?

[ILMOU]

How many games?

 

Thank you, VA, for steering the thread toward the logical question that is worth debating. I was going to suggest a thread title change, but don't like to steal an OP's thunder, and, to some extent, it's the shock value that draws you in, so there's that.

 

Anyway, my estimation, with hand on Bible, is 2-3 games. But even if it's 1, that's too many. Next year and beyond, it's time to win. Will Robin be ready?

 

Once again, I'll admit, my perception of the dynamics of the Reinsdorf ownership gives me little confidence that changes will or can be made expeditiously, or with a sense of comfort for all parties, which seems to be important to the boss. And I'm not going to bash JR. The same loyalty that I sometimes lament likely has a lot to do with RH sticking around in an assistant's role for so long, and he's a guy who does give me confidence.

 

Just wonder if the focus is as singularly on winning as it needs to be.

[witesoxfan]

How many games has Robin won with his managing? Don't worry about the "oh, any manager would make that move late in a game." Just how many games has he won?

 

[southsider2k5]

How many games has Robin won with his managing? Don't worry about the "oh, any manager would make that move late in a game." Just how many games has he won?

 

To be fair, any number of "games lost" should be accompanied by a "games won". A +/- would be interesting.

[ILMOU]

How many games has Robin won with his managing? Don't worry about the "oh, any manager would make that move late in a game." Just how many games has he won?

I think most of us are looking at it at a net gain or loss for a typical season estimate, and not trying to isolate it to specific games. At least I was.

 

How many wins has Maddon been worth? Not easy to define well.

[witesoxfan]

I think most of us are looking at it at a net gain or loss for a typical season estimate, and not trying to isolate it to specific games. At least I was.

 

How many wins has Maddon been worth? Not easy to define well.

 

It's not, which is why I have difficulty making objective claims like this. Obviously, a manager's job is to put his team in the best position to win, and sometimes managers struggle with that, but it's not as if they don't improve over time.

 

As I said previously, that is such a small scope of the job that to fire someone simply based off a few mistakes is incorrect. How do the players respond to him? How does he respond to the players? How does he handle the media? Frankly, people on here may be better in game managers than Ventura - I won't argue that point. But if they were to go into the dugout, do you think they'd command the respect of the clubhouse? That's about 40 people that have to believe in you and respect what you're doing.

[ILMOU]

It's not, which is why I have difficulty making objective claims like this. Obviously, a manager's job is to put his team in the best position to win, and sometimes managers struggle with that, but it's not as if they don't improve over time.

 

As I said previously, that is such a small scope of the job that to fire someone simply based off a few mistakes is incorrect. How do the players respond to him? How does he respond to the players? How does he handle the media? Frankly, people on here may be better in game managers than Ventura - I won't argue that point. But if they were to go into the dugout, do you think they'd command the respect of the clubhouse? That's about 40 people that have to believe in you and respect what you're doing.

I'm not calling for his head, I just don't think he's very good. Maybe he can improve. Maybe I was expecting more in year three, and yeah it's real tough to look good with a terrible pen. I think that his moves have generally led to lower run scoring totals, primarily. I though he was worse with the bullpen maneuvering last year, but he's making new mistakes this year. Maybe that will help him learn more faster, or maybe his ability to anticipate will always be an issue. Regardless, he's not going anywhere soon, I realize that.

 

I've said before that Robin has Torre-esque qualities that could make him a good manager of a good to great team. But I do wonder if what I see as tactical deficiency prevents the team from getting over the hump, because the margins are small.

[witesoxfan]

I'm not calling for his head, I just don't think he's very good. Maybe he can improve. Maybe I was expecting more in year three, and yeah it's real tough to look good with a terrible pen. I think that his moves have generally led to lower run scoring totals, primarily. I though he was worse with the bullpen maneuvering last year, but he's making new mistakes this year. Maybe that will help him learn more faster, or maybe his ability to anticipate will always be an issue. Regardless, he's not going anywhere soon, I realize that.

 

I've said before that Robin has Torre-esque qualities that could make him a good manager of a good to great team. But I do wonder if what I see as tactical deficiency prevents the team from getting over the hump, because the margins are small.

 

I think this is a really good, well reasoned post with a lot of really good food for thought, and it's absolutely fair criticisms of Robin. Just wanted to say that.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly are these Torre/LaRussa/Cox qualities we're referring to?

[Dick Allen]

You still have to have the player execute so if you have bad players a manager can put you in a position to win but you still lose. When Maddon didn't have good players he also lost a ton of games. It is amazing how smart you get when the talent level of your team rises.

[ILMOU]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly are these Torre/LaRussa/Cox qualities we're referring to?

I'm not that eloquent, so I won't even try. But those qualities might include likeability, respect for playing career, team first attitude builder, etc. I don't know if he has enough alpha dog for a team in this state of development. A perfect guy for the next two years would be a guy like Showalter, who could then pass the torch to a guy like Robin.

 

You still have to have the player execute so if you have bad players a manager can put you in a position to win but you still lose. When Maddon didn't have good players he also lost a ton of games. It is amazing how smart you get when the talent level of your team rises.

It's a numbers game like anything else. You get your guys in the right situations/positions the most you can, and you evaluate situations in isolation while thinking ahead. If the margins weren't small, there wouldn't be much of an improvement in a team's W-L, and in the rare case of Maddon, few would argue that he hasn't had a significant positive effect. Their talent has never been overwhelming, and players have often had their best years under his watch. Or they've fallen off a cliff after leaving - BJUpton, Keppy, for instance. He realized what Zobrist could bring and found a way to make him an everyday player and WAR machine. Not every mgr. would, imo.

 

Oh, and his teams have been BABIP killing studs and pioneers. He's special. Has all the qualities you want for the modern era. Keeps em loose and professional as well as anyone I've seen.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[The Ginger Kid]

Robin wasn't handed a team ready to win a WS or even compete for a division title, but he did accomplish the latter in his first year. I always figured that he would be given a chance to learn, to take his lumps, and from everything I've read he's a very bright guy and a student of the game. All of his former managers said so and some of them were pretty good (like Joe Torre). Plus I was always struck by this quote by KW in 2011...

 

During the recent general managers' meetings in Milwaukee, Williams told the story of a "very well-respected psychologist" (whose name he declined to reveal) who does personality testing for the military, large corporations and professional sports organizations.

 

"This psychologist was asked, 'Of all the people you've tested, who impressed you the most in terms of their capabilities to lead?'" Williams said. "And his reply was, 'There's one guy who's capable of being the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And if he were in the military, he would achieve four-star general status.' I'll give you one guess who the person was."

 

Hint: His initials are RV.

 

I do not believe the quality of the bullpen = the quality of the manager. Is RV perfect? Far from it. But is he the "worst ever?" That's simply one of the more assinine statements around.

[kitekrazy]

Robin wasn't handed a team ready to win a WS or even compete for a division title, but he did accomplish the latter in his first year. I always figured that he would be given a chance to learn, to take his lumps, and from everything I've read he's a very bright guy and a student of the game. All of his former managers said so and some of them were pretty good (like Joe Torre). Plus I was always struck by this quote by KW in 2011...

 

 

 

I do not believe the quality of the bullpen = the quality of the manager. Is RV perfect? Far from it. But is he the "worst ever?" That's simply one of the more assinine statements around.

 

I don't trust psychologists. Throwing someone into major league managing is a big disservice. There's managers in farm systems who get to make those mistakes without someone calling for their head. Even the god Tony LaRussa would look bad with a crap-shoot bullpen. Remember the Sox fired LaRussa.

[caulfield12]

I think it's worth remembering that Torre was fired by three organizations, the Mets, Braves and Cardinals.

 

It took all those negative experiences for him to finally put it together with the Yankees.

 

Yes, Ventura has a very calm and poised demeanor. He doesn't get too high or too low. He's not a rah rah type or a tactician. I still can't imagine him (RV) dealing with the press as well as Torre does in markets like NY, Philly, Boston, etc. You also have to remember that Torre had some great coaching staffs with guys like Stottlemyre and Zimmer to lend a helping hand. With the White Sox, other than Cooper and maybe Steverson, it's hard to say that we've consistently that one of the best support staffs because until recently we've usually been limited to former White Sox players except for hitting coaches.

 

Ventura's definitely not one of the top 10-15 in terms of strategy/tacticianship...that's obvious.

 

And I'm not sure what managers could have led the 2012 White Sox past the Tigers...or held onto the lead. We'll never know. That said, he's done as well as possible or better than expected with the 2012 and 2014 White Sox, and much worse than expected last year....a team that arguably had a lot more talent and more veterans but simply gave up and mailed it in.

 

He's kept this year's team together (I think having a younger, hungrier team helps) until this point. There's not much any manager could do with only three decent starters, a mess of a bullpen....and outside of Eaton, Ramirez, Gillaspie and Abreu, there have been a lot of offensive disappointments (DeAza, Beckham, Viciedo, Flowers). Dunn has been about where we expected. In short, two superstars have really kept this team within hailing distance of .500 for most of the season. So once again it's hard to say Ventura has been great when there are 2 guys in Sale and Abreu capable of finishing in the Top 3 of the MVP and Cy Young races.

[Wedge]

It's really tough to judge Robin's bullpen management when the cards he's been dealt there have been awful in his entire tenure.

 

How many games has Jose Abreu won for us this year? Would Abreu have adapted as seamlessly to MLB under a different manager?

[southsider2k5]

For the "emotionless" crowd. It is really well known that while Ventura won't show up his players on the field, he will light a fire under guys who need it inside of the lockerroom behind closed doors. I can't remember if it was Guillen or Thomas who told the story about Ventura getting in people's faces in the clubhouse when they needed it. Just because he doesn't put on a show for the cameras, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Baseball players spend a lot of time away from the camera's view.

[RockRaines]

How many games has Robin won with his managing? Don't worry about the "oh, any manager would make that move late in a game." Just how many games has he won?

By most projections even with really horrible injury luck, this team is outperforming what it was expected to do. PECOTA had them projected to win 75 games. I think they finish quite a bit better than that, so either you think the players are really awesome or the manager is awesome or you finally realize that there is no way to attribute wins and losses to one person.

[iamshack]

By most projections even with really horrible injury luck, this team is outperforming what it was expected to do. PECOTA had them projected to win 75 games. I think they finish quite a bit better than that, so either you think the players are really awesome or the manager is awesome or you finally realize that there is no way to attribute wins and losses to one person.

It's pretty complex to try and take apart in any meaningful way, but I doubt PECOTA had Abreu where he is right now.

[RockRaines]

It's pretty complex to try and take apart in any meaningful way, but I doubt PECOTA had Abreu where he is right now.

Or the injuries etc. Fact is that was what they thought the talent of the Sox would do. And they are in the hunt for the WC at least a year too early. I think thats pretty damn good.