Is Ventura the worst manager in the history of MLB?

[Balta1701]

What exactly is a strength for any coach?

I still give the White Sox's manager credit for the great level of focus and discipline showed during the 2012 season. Being prepared for the year and actually making correct mental moves, particularly on defense, made that team competitive for most of the season.

[kitekrazy]

The organizations loyalty to former players is a nice thing but not always a good recipe for winning.

[caulfield12]

His players respect him. His "strategy" isn't nearly as bad as some advertise. When you don't have benefit of hindsight, the moves he was "supposed" to make don't always work out, and the "stupid" moves he makes often do work out and are called lucky. For some, he is wrong even if he is correct. And just like the made up Greg Walker philosophy of lift and pull, the lack of fire and passion Robin supposedly has is totally false. He isn't Ditka, which apparently is the model Chicagoans believe to be the best model, yet no one wants to work or play under that kind of buffoon. Robin keeps White Sox business in house. I don't always agree with every move he makes, every line-up he makes out, but you look at the talent level. At some point this year the Sox absolutely needed a new C,2B, LF, RF,DH, a totally different bench, the SS needed to be traded. The 3 positions people have been happy with 1B, 3B, and CF all spent time on the DL. Only one AL team has a higher team ERA, yet, the team is damn near .500. I cannot believe that could possibly mean the manager was horrible too.

 

 

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Of course, one week ago, it would have been true. But nobody would be surprised if they finished 10-14 games under .500, as opposed to anywhere close to 80-82 wins.

[Vance Law]

Pretty genius move by Ventura to call up Danks from AAA and pinch hit him in the 10th and have him steal 2nd and score the winning run and have Guerra and Petricka not give up any runs.

[caulfield12]

Pretty genius move by Ventura to call up Danks from AAA and pinch hit him in the 10th and have him steal 2nd and score the winning run and have Guerra and Petricka not give up any runs.

 

 

I'd say even more genius was Don Cooper for saying he could fix Noesi after that Rangers/Sox game. He's helped to put two critical losses on the Mariners this year, and they're now 1 1/2 games behind the Royals for the WC. That will haunt them if they miss out on the playoffs.

 

 

Guerra looked good last night...and statistically has been one of the best Sox pitchers since his recall.

 

Petricka's got to stop throwing straight cheese down the chute and hoping he can get away with it like he did in the minors...that said, thanks for the shift working out.

 

Seattle's is probably worse than ours. There's Cano, Seager and that's about it in terms of real threats. Zunino has some pop, but K's a ton and has a much lower batting average than Viciedo. That said, he's also tied for the lead for catcher's homers (with Mesoraco) and you can tolerate a catcher with an OPS between 650-700 much more easily than a LFer.

Edited August 10, 2014 by caulfield12

[sin city sox fan]

Today's loss has to be at least the 20th this season that RV has cost us. Incompetence this bad should not be tolerated at McDonalds....yet alone on a major league baseball team (excluding the cubs)

[Vance Law]

Today's loss has to be at least the 20th this season that RV has cost us. Incompetence this bad should not be tolerated at McDonalds....yet alone on a major league baseball team (excluding the cubs)

 

Actually Robin told Abreu not to strike out twice and ground into a double play- to instead hit like he has been for most of the season. I don't know why Jose wouldn't listen to the coaching. Probably something that needs to be addressed.

[southsider2k5]

Actually Robin told Abreu not to strike out twice and ground into a double play- to instead hit like he has been for most of the season. I don't know why Jose wouldn't listen to the coaching. Probably something that needs to be addressed.

 

He also told the infielders to blow a couple of plays to set up a bases loaded double Good work Robin.

[Balta1701]

Actually Robin told Abreu not to strike out twice and ground into a double play- to instead hit like he has been for most of the season. I don't know why Jose wouldn't listen to the coaching. Probably something that needs to be addressed.

Of course, Robin didn't notice that Abreu had passed out from exhaustion while he was telling him not to strike out. He hit him on the head until he woke up dizzy and sent him up to the plate.

[greg775]

Not a flame on Robin. I'm convinced with the extension and his low-key demeanor, he's just what the Sox players and front office want and will be our skipper for many many years to come. No sense worrying about something I can't change.

 

But I was wondering after talking to an Orioles fan who was GUSHING about Buck Showalter. Tell the truth ... with Buck, would we be a playoff team this year? Is Buck that good? Robin is learning on the job and a player's manager obviously. If Buck was our skipper, would the Sox be rolling right now?? Just wondered if he's THAT GOOD and Robin more average to middle of the road? This Oriole fan I know was insistent Buck is the man.

Edited August 11, 2014 by greg775

[Y2Jimmy0]

Not a flame on Robin. I'm convinced with the extension and his low-key demeanor, he's just what the Sox players and front office want and will be our skipper for many many years to come. No sense worrying about something I can't change.

 

But I was wondering after talking to an Orioles fan who was GUSHING about Buck Showalter. Tell the truth ... with Buck, would we be a playoff team this year? Is Buck that good? Robin is learning on the job and a player's manager obviously. If Buck was our skipper, would the Sox be rolling right now?? Just wondered if he's THAT GOOD and Robin more average to middle of the road? This Oriole fan I know was insistent Buck is the man.

 

 

No. A manager doesn't turn a bad baseball team into a playoff team.

[caulfield12]

Terry Francona would have this team in the playoffs.

[VAfan]

His players respect him. His "strategy" isn't nearly as bad as some advertise. When you don't have benefit of hindsight, the moves he was "supposed" to make don't always work out, and the "stupid" moves he makes often do work out and are called lucky. For some, he is wrong even if he is correct. And just like the made up Greg Walker philosophy of lift and pull, the lack of fire and passion Robin supposedly has is totally false. He isn't Ditka, which apparently is the model Chicagoans believe to be the best model, yet no one wants to work or play under that kind of buffoon. Robin keeps White Sox business in house. I don't always agree with every move he makes, every line-up he makes out, but you look at the talent level. At some point this year the Sox absolutely needed a new C,2B, LF, RF,DH, a totally different bench, the SS needed to be traded. The 3 positions people have been happy with 1B, 3B, and CF all spent time on the DL. Only one AL team has a higher team ERA, yet, the team is damn near .500. I cannot believe that could possibly mean the manager was horrible too.

 

Thanks for trying. I'm still not buying it.

 

I don't think he manages the bullpen very well, and has helped the team lose multiple games this way. I thought the lack of fire was useful for his first season only, when he was the anti-Ozzie. Since then, not so much. I don't see any postgame shows, but I can't recall him ever drawing any blame toward himself and away from his players. He seems content to have teams pound us in the last couple of weeks (16, 16, and 13 runs) without ever asking for any knock-down pitches to show we had some fight in us. He seems to stick with guys way too long. (E.g., Having Beckham hit 2nd for more than a month after he proved he was a zero in that spot. Going back and back to Bellisario in critical game situations only to see him rack up loss after loss. Batting Adam Dunn third for a long time. Sticking with Dunn against lefties even when he had proven he was horrible that year.) Fielding a team with horrible fundamentals, especially last year.

 

I just don't see any redeeming qualities.

 

As for Buck Showalter, I think he's done a FABULOUS job with the Orioles, though I used to love how Ozzie Guillen would always tweak him. Showalter is a details freak, but he's gotten the Orioles to believe in themselves and compete in what was the toughest division in baseball for a long time, with the Yankees and Red Sox always one-upping each other. The O's were doormats for two decades until Showalter came along. He's had the benefit of young drafted talent, but he's really helped with the psychological side. He's also been masterful at bullpen management.

 

By comparison, Ventura seems totally overmatched to me. The only reason I can see why he was hired is he was beloved as a former White Sox player. Should we make Frank Thomas our next manager?

[GreenSox]

Ventura's a terrible manager re strategy and he's cost this team several games.

But they wouldn't be in the playoffs; and I'm afraid the last 7 weeks will attest to that (but I hope I'm wrong).

I assume he's good with the players....that said, the team team has tanked in both of his years, and looks like they're working on a three-peat, so that may be a bad assumption as well.

Edited August 11, 2014 by GreenSox

[2nd_city_saint787]

I'd love to see someone point out a team as bad as this Sox squad is from a talent perspective that has been any good.

 

They lost 3 of 4 to a contending team with their leadoff man on the shelf and their big man in the middle not being the usual monster he is....I don't know why that is shocking to anyone, and why again it "proves Robin is a bad manager".

 

Hell they may have gotten a win if Conor lets that ball roll foul, that catcher who hit that ball looks awful at baseball so there's a good chance he does squat. I suppose Robin has an earpiece in Conor's ear telling him to try and make that play.

 

And I'm sick of the whole defensive fundamentals s***. Most these guys have been playing baseball all their lives, if they're still bad defensively, there's nothing Robin can do that hasn't been tried by every other manager they've had from little league, through the minors, and into the big league. There is no magic tricks these major league coaches pull with their players, they either have it or they don't.

 

I don't care how crazy people think his statement was but I agree wholeheartedly with Hawk when he basically said managers don't matter.....Talent wins ball games, not the manager.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2014 by scs787

[BaconOnAStick]

This is the 340th post in a thread titled "is Ventura the worst manager in the history of MLB."

 

Let that sink in, sports fans.

[LDF]

I'd love to see someone point out a team as bad as this Sox squad is from a talent perspective that has been any good.

 

They lost 3 of 4 to a contending team with their leadoff man on the shelf and their big man in the middle not being the usual monster he is....I don't know why that is shocking to anyone, and why again it "proves Robin is a bad manager".

 

Hell they may have gotten a win if Conor lets that ball roll foul, that catcher who hit that ball looks awful at baseball so there's a good chance he does squat. I suppose Robin has an earpiece in Conor's ear telling him to try and make that play.

 

And I'm sick of the whole defensive fundamentals s***. Most these guys have been playing baseball all their lives, if they're still bad defensively, there's nothing Robin can do that hasn't been tried by every other manager they've had from little league, through the minors, and into the big league. There is no magic tricks these major league coaches pull with their players, they either have it or they don't.

 

I don't care how crazy people think his statement was but I agree wholeheartedly with Hawk when he basically said managers don't matter.....Talent wins ball games, not the manager.

 

I agree with you 100% ......

 

the end

[LittleHurt05]

Today's loss has to be at least the 20th this season that RV has cost us. Incompetence this bad should not be tolerated at McDonalds....yet alone on a major league baseball team (excluding the cubs)

 

So if it wasn't for Robin the Sox would be 76-43 and have the best record in baseball?

[Brian]

I'm not a fan of Robin as a manager. I doubt he'd be able to take this squad to the next level.

 

That said, not his fault the bullpen blows and Eaton gets hurt.

 

Wish he'd realize that Leury should never bat lead off, despite not having many other options.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

I'm not a fan of Robin as a manager. I doubt he'd be able to take this squad to the next level.

 

That said, not his fault the bullpen blows and Eaton gets hurt.

 

Wish he'd realize that Leury should never bat lead off, despite not having many other options.

 

Pretty much EVERY manager is bad at lineups. Fortunately, studies show that they don't make much of a difference.

 

I used to stress out about lineups, but it just doesn't matter enough to worry about.

[Chicago White Sox]

Pretty much EVERY manager is bad at lineups. Fortunately, studies show that they don't make much of a difference.

 

I used to stress out about lineups, but it just doesn't matter enough to worry about.

What exactly is not much of a difference?

[witesoxfan]

What exactly is not much of a difference?

 

I don't remember the exact numbers, but the difference between the least optimized lineup and the most optimized lineup is like 20-30 runs, which is 2-3 wins in a context neutral setting, and much of that difference can be cancelled out by dumb luck, which you cannot control for in any setting.

 

And I believe that is almost always the difference. If you have good hitters, you'll score runs no matter how the lineup is set, and if you have bad hitters, you won't score runs, no matter how the lineup is set.

[Eminor3rd]

What exactly is not much of a difference?

 

 

I don't remember the exact numbers, but the difference between the least optimized lineup and the most optimized lineup is like 20-30 runs, which is 2-3 wins in a context neutral setting, and much of that difference can be cancelled out by dumb luck, which you cannot control for in any setting.

 

And I believe that is almost always the difference. If you have good hitters, you'll score runs no matter how the lineup is set, and if you have bad hitters, you won't score runs, no matter how the lineup is set.

 

Right. Basically, there are two reasons why it doesn't matter much:

 

1. Even a "traditional" lineup is only a few spots different than a proper, ideal lineup. The 2-3 wins difference comes when you compare the ideal lineup with like the worst possible one, with a pitcher batting fourth, etc.

 

2. Players are so random with when they perform, that batter and run sequencing is completely unpredictable. The best leadoff hitters in the game get on base about 10% more than the worst, Will that 1 time in ten fall when your clean up hitter is going to hit a double? Sometimes. But your bad leadoff hitter might happen to get on base in more opportune times just by chance.

 

Don't get me wrong -- I believe in giving yourself the best chance possible, even when the improvements are incremental. But like wite said: at the end of the day, your hitters are gonna hit or not. And the difference is small enough that you could make an argument that the psychological effects of hitters "feeling comfortable" in their roles or not could outweigh the benefits or trying to line up your performance sequencing.

 

So because it's probably a wash, I generally just give the manager the benefit of the doubt, assuming he's using the lineup as a component of his clubhouse psyche. Like, maybe Leury feels frustrated that he hasn't had a chance to play regularly, and now that Eaton is on the DL, RV is putting him in the leadoff spot where he feels like he has his best chance to succeed with his tools, and where he feels like he's being giving a shot to play an important role in keeping the team in the conversation for the wild card spot. If that's true and that's what motivates Leury, the mental edge will outweigh the disadvantage of not having the lineup right.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[RockRaines]

Today's loss has to be at least the 20th this season that RV has cost us. Incompetence this bad should not be tolerated at McDonalds....yet alone on a major league baseball team (excluding the cubs)

Sox are in first place without Robin. Let that sink in.

[caulfield12]

Well, Joe Maddon had a chance to walk Rizzo with a LH reliever out there and runners already on 2nd and 3rd. It seemed LOGICAL at the time to walk Rizzo in order to face Castro with the bases loaded and a chance at getting the double play ball.

 

Maddon chose to try to get Rizzo out with the lefty vs. lefty match-up and it blew up in his face.

 

That said, the Rays won something like 22 of their last 26 road games before that and were very close to being only one of four teams in major league history to get back to the .500 mark after being 18 games under.

 

The 2001 White Sox were 14-29 and battled back to .500 and over and nobody ever asserts Jerry Manuel was one of the best. I think the 2005 Astros must have been one of the other examples.