Is Ventura the worst manager in the history of MLB?

[Dick Allen]

That's the problem when you don't bother reading the whole thread or watch the game or read or take part in the game thread . Those were not the major points of contention. Trailing 4-3 Abreu led off the 9th against left hander Glen Perkins with a single and Robin pinch ran for him ( Leury Garcia ) because he's the tying run . Good move pretty accepted and expected strategy. PK pinch hits for Dunn and gets a single moving Leury to 3rd so its 1st and 3rd no outs. Another good move by Robin not letting the LH Dunn face the LH Perkins. Then the questionable move. Robin pinch runs for PK with Moises Sierra when De Aza who is batting .083 against LHers is 2 hitters away. Sierra is RH along with Flowers who is red hot and also on the bench. Now we all know PK is slow but is he the go ahead run . Maybe if Viceido who is up now hits a double Sierra scores whereas PK wouldn't or maybe Sierra can break up a DP since we've seen Tank hit into a few of those before.

 

Now Robin has known all year that his bench is a little short since PK can only pinch hit and not play any other position. SO maybe, just maybe you think ahead, ok what if PK gets on base I might need my other RH's to pinch hit with Perkins being lefty and all and De Aza being really bad this year against lefty's . SO if I pinch run for PK maybe it should be one of my faster pitcher's or a pitcher who's not a starter ( don't want them running the bases) but if I use a reliever and it goes extra innings I could need that pitcher. Or maybe I just wait before I pinch run for PK but I better pick out a reliever and tell him to stretch his legs and if the game ends up going 15 innings I'll cross that bridge when I get to it but the main thing is getting the tying run home. The main thing is getting Leury in from 3rd. That's the tying run and Perkins is one tough son of a gun. Damn it Viciedo K's Conor is up . He sucks against LH's too but not half as bad as De Aza and he 's has a good eye. Well hmm Conor works a walk now Sierra is at 2nd base and I can't use Sierra to pinch hit because he's pinch running but I still have Flower's since Nieto started and he's red hot. Ok so if Flowers pinch hits Sierra can still take De Aza's place in the OF and Flowers can take Neito's place but then I have no catcher if Flower's gets hurt. Ok Leury's still on 3rd. Yea maybe I shouldn't have had Sierra pinch run for PK .Maybe Rienzo could have run though we don't really know how fast he is but we do all know PK is about the slowest man in baseball. Robin has to know De Aza is terrible against LH this year . Sierra is a better choice so is Flowers but he wasted Sierra on the go ahead runner when just getting Leury in was the main thing.. So any way De Aza also K's Gordan flies out to left . Game Over.

 

Carrol pitched 6 strong innings but the reason he didnt start the 7th was because of a blister and I'm pretty sure most knowledgeable Sox fans said hey good job Carroll and weren't upset when Bellasario came in. Before he threw a pitch the umps said he had too much resin on his left sleeve and told him to take a bracelet or rubber band or something off that he was wearing under that sleeve and they cut off his sleeve at the elbow. Robin stayed in the dugout the entire time his pitcher is being messed with. That is kind of odd. I think most managers would've come out and said wtf why are you f***ing with my pitcher and to gauge how Bellasario felt about it. Well Bellasario was angry ( his post game comments)and proceeded to wet the bed. Walks the 1st hitter, then Thigpen visits the mound. Gives up a single next ,a wild pitch and another walk before he is replaced.

 

So these are the things that some of us questioned.

So you are saying there is zero chance you would have fried Robin if a go ahead run didn't score because Konerko wasn't pinch run for and the Sox wound up losing?

 

When Sierra came in, I was in the gamethread. Where were all the 2 or 3 moves ahead posters then? They sure did manage to find their way to posting AFTER the Sox didn't score and were looking to blame Robin for something.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

So Robin is the worst manager ever because he didn't save Moises Sierra for a pinch hitting situation. Moises Sierra, who has a 47 wRC+ this season, 60 wRC+ against lefties.

 

De Aza is having a really bad year, but in his career vs. lefties he has an 85 wRC+. Was Sierra a better choice? Maybe, but you could argue either way. Regardless, it sounds like the difference between fighting a bear using a spork or a toothpick. Given the relatively even odds of failure with each batter at the plate, is it not at least defensible to at least make sure the runner on second would score on a base hit? At least there's a significant difference between Sierra and Konerko on the basepaths -- I'm not sure there really was one between De Aza and Sierra at the plate.

 

At the end of the day, the team had a runner on third with no outs and couldn't manage to tie the game. A complete failure of the players on the field.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

So you are saying there is zero chance you would have fried Robin if a go ahead run didn't score because Konerko wasn't pinch run for and the Sox wound up losing?

 

When Sierra came in, I was in the gamethread. Where were all the 2 or 3 moves ahead posters then? They sure did manage to find their way to posting AFTER the Sox didn't score and were looking to blame Robin for something.

Poster's aren't paid to look 2 or 3 moves ahead or manage the team but Robin is. So it really makes no difference when they say the moves are iffy because they are iffy. If you realize it before time, during or after, they are still questionable moves and I don't see you denying that.

[Dick Allen]

Poster's aren't paid to look 2 or 3 moves ahead or manage the team but Robin is. So it really makes no difference when they say the moves are iffy because they are iffy. If you realize it before time, during or after, they are still questionable moves and I don't see you denying that.

So you are basically saying, in hindsight, if it doesn't work out, Robin should be criticized, because he had to do something wrong.

I had no problem with the moves he made. I do find it funny people who thought Tyler Flowers needed to be relieved of his job a week or so ago, now complain he wasn't used to pinch hit, and automatically assume if he pinch hit, he would have succeeded. I'm sure if Robin did what they now said he was supposed to do and pinch hit either Sierra or Flowers and they rolled into a DP, he would have been an idiot as well.

 

There was posts criticizing him for removing Carroll, and the crap where if he went out to the mound to see them take Beli's rubber band off would have made it a whole lot better is beyond laughable.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

So Robin is the worst manager ever because he didn't save Moises Sierra for a pinch hitting situation. Moises Sierra, who has a 47 wRC+ this season, 60 wRC+ against lefties.

 

De Aza is having a really bad year, but in his career vs. lefties he has an 85 wRC+. Was Sierra a better choice? Maybe, but you could argue either way. Regardless, it sounds like the difference between fighting a bear using a spork or a toothpick. Given the relatively even odds of failure with each batter at the plate, is it not at least defensible to at least make sure the runner on second would score on a base hit? At least there's a significant difference between Sierra and Konerko on the basepaths -- I'm not sure there really was one between De Aza and Sierra at the plate.

 

At the end of the day, the team had a runner on third with no outs and couldn't manage to tie the game. A complete failure of the players on the field.

Hey just because someone at the beginning of the thread said worst manager ever do not apply it to everyone else who thinks Robin isn't a good manager. Also don't throw out a stat that some of us still don't comprehend fully like wRC+. I do know Sierra was at .233 against RH's and De Aza .083 this year. The last thing the Sox needed out of De Aza was a K or DP . The RH vs LH match up at least cuts down on the K odds.The only thing you need to know is THIS YEAR not career De Aza sucked against LH's . Of course Sierra or Flowers was a better choice. There is no MAYBE about it. The significant difference you talk about between Sierra and Konerko doesn't even matter if Leury does not score 1st. Increase the odds of Leury scoring is the numero uno priority in that situation.

 

I am not going to take up the cross for the anti Robin guys here. I think most of them are reasonable and objective with their opinions and not looking to blame Robin but just observing the game as it happens. Robin's job is to increase the odds of success and lessen the odds of failure. He made good moves last night but also bad or if you prefer questionable ones.

 

 

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

So you are basically saying, in hindsight, if it doesn't work out, Robin should be criticized, because he had to do something wrong.

I had no problem with the moves he made. I do find it funny people who thought Tyler Flowers needed to be relieved of his job a week or so ago, now complain he wasn't used to pinch hit, and automatically assume if he pinch hit, he would have succeeded. I'm sure if Robin did what they now said he was supposed to do and pinch hit either Sierra or Flowers and they rolled into a DP, he would have been an idiot as well.

 

There was posts criticizing him for removing Carroll, and the crap where if he went out to the mound to see them take Beli's rubber band off would have made it a whole lot better is beyond laughable.

Why do you always put word in people mouths ? Yea Tyler sucked 2 weeks ago and people wanted him gone. But now he was hot so there's nothing wrong or funny about wanting him to PH NOW not 2 weeks ago. You paint everyone with the same broad brushstrokes. The people condemning Robin don't do it based on results at least the more knowledgeable ones don't. They do it based on playing the odds or percentages of success and failure . If Flowers or Sierra had pinch hit and had the same result as De Aza or even worst at least he made the right move for that particular situation. The outcome is irrelevant. no one is assuming Tyler or Sierra would've succeeded in that situation. That is just you arguing against yourself telling us what others would have done as usual.

 

 

Again the manager should be out there to survey the situation when his pitcher gets f***ed with. No one is saying Bellasario would have pitched better if he had. Again that is on you.

[BlackSox13]

Or how about John Ferrell. Red Sox won the World Series last year and now he, the manager, has the team in last place with a worse record than the White Sox. You have to give Robin props for deciding to make his team win more games than last year instead of less games as Ferrell is doing.

Yeah, Ferrell is pretty bad. I cannot understand how a team goes from world series champ to one of the worst teams the following year.

 

I'm not really a fan of Robin's decision making by any means but in his defense its not his fault he was given two DH's, its not his fault he was given a s***ty bullpen and its not his fault there's two holes in the rotation. I admit Noesi and Carroll have been looking better but far from being staples in the rotation at this point.

 

Robin can only manage what Hahn gives him and obviously some experiments have not worked out. I'm willing to wait and see how Robin does when he's given a team with less holes.

 

We all knew this rebuild would be tough to watch sometimes.

[Dick Allen]

Why do you always put word in people mouths ? Yea Tyler sucked 2 weeks ago and people wanted him gone. But now he was hot so there's nothing wrong or funny about wanting him to PH NOW not 2 weeks ago. You paint everyone with the same broad brushstrokes. The people condemning Robin don't do it based on results at least the more knowledgeable ones don't. They do it based on playing the odds or percentages of success and failure . If Flowers or Sierra had pinch hit and had the same result as De Aza or even worst at least he made the right move for that particular situation. The outcome is irrelevant. no one is assuming Tyler or Sierra would've succeeded in that situation. That is just you arguing against yourself telling us what others would have done as usual.

 

 

Again the manager should be out there to survey the situation when his pitcher gets f***ed with. No one is saying Bellasario would have pitched better if he had. Again that is on you.

All Beli needed was a pair of scissors. Herm went out there. What exactly is Robin supposed to do? You do realize if a Minnesota pitcher came in wearing a rubber band and had a couple of pounds of rosin on his forearm, he would have asked for it to be removed?

 

These are grown men. Not 8 year olds whose dad is sitting on some bleachers expecting him to be a major leaguer.

[Dick Allen]

Why do you always put word in people mouths ? Yea Tyler sucked 2 weeks ago and people wanted him gone. But now he was hot so there's nothing wrong or funny about wanting him to PH NOW not 2 weeks ago. You paint everyone with the same broad brushstrokes. The people condemning Robin don't do it based on results at least the more knowledgeable ones don't. They do it based on playing the odds or percentages of success and failure . If Flowers or Sierra had pinch hit and had the same result as De Aza or even worst at least he made the right move for that particular situation. The outcome is irrelevant. no one is assuming Tyler or Sierra would've succeeded in that situation. That is just you arguing against yourself telling us what others would have done as usual.

 

 

Again the manager should be out there to survey the situation when his pitcher gets f***ed with. No one is saying Bellasario would have pitched better if he had. Again that is on you.

All Beli needed was a pair of scissors. Herm went out there. What exactly is Robin supposed to do? You do realize if a Minnesota pitcher came in wearing a rubber band and had a couple of pounds of rosin on his forearm, he would have asked for it to be removed?

 

These are grown men. Not 8 year olds whose dad is sitting on some bleachers expecting him to be a major leaguer.

 

Many of the same people who say Robin has to show players "he has their backs", have criticized him previously for not publicly embarrassing them either in the press or in the dugout when they screwed up. Another inconsistency.

[southsider2k5]

So Robin is the worst manager ever because he didn't save Moises Sierra for a pinch hitting situation. Moises Sierra, who has a 47 wRC+ this season, 60 wRC+ against lefties.

 

De Aza is having a really bad year, but in his career vs. lefties he has an 85 wRC+. Was Sierra a better choice? Maybe, but you could argue either way. Regardless, it sounds like the difference between fighting a bear using a spork or a toothpick. Given the relatively even odds of failure with each batter at the plate, is it not at least defensible to at least make sure the runner on second would score on a base hit? At least there's a significant difference between Sierra and Konerko on the basepaths -- I'm not sure there really was one between De Aza and Sierra at the plate.

 

At the end of the day, the team had a runner on third with no outs and couldn't manage to tie the game. A complete failure of the players on the field.

 

Exactly.

[bmags]

You do realize if a Minnesota pitcher came in wearing a rubber band and had a couple of pounds of rosin on his forearm, he would have asked for it to be removed?

 

Can someone explain the advantages to these things?

[GreenSox]

Very few people could do what Ventura is being asked to do: Effectively manage a ML baseball team after being out of baseball for many years, and without a minute of prior coaching experience.

Edited July 28, 2014 by GreenSox

[Eminor3rd]

Hey just because someone at the beginning of the thread said worst manager ever do not apply it to everyone else who thinks Robin isn't a good manager.

 

Sorry.

 

Also don't throw out a stat that some of us still don't comprehend fully like wRC+. I do know Sierra was at .233 against RH's and De Aza .083 this year.

 

It's basically a summary stat that factors OBP and SLG components in so it isn't just AVG. It's scaled so that 100 is league average and each point represent a percentage point above or below. So 47 and 60 are super, super bad.

 

The last thing the Sox needed out of De Aza was a K or DP . The RH vs LH match up at least cuts down on the K odds.The only thing you need to know is THIS YEAR not career De Aza sucked against LH's . Of course Sierra or Flowers was a better choice. There is no MAYBE about it.

 

I'm not sure this is true. There's a lot of research that indicates that career stats are substantially more predictive than season stats, no matter where the AB in question falls in terms of a hot or cold streak. Given that De Aza's career wRC+ against lefties is identical to Sierra's, but over a much, much larger sample, it seems to me that it was probably pretty close to a wash. Certainly, it's within the realm of "maybe."

 

The significant difference you talk about between Sierra and Konerko doesn't even matter if Leury does not score 1st. Increase the odds of Leury scoring is the numero uno priority in that situation.

 

Of course, but the point is that the difference between Sierra and De Aza is at least arguably negligible. Also, keep this in mind: the most important thing in the situation was NOT necessarily a hit, but rather contact. De Aza is a career 20% K guy (22% this year) where Sierra is a career 26% K guy (26% this year). I'm sure Robin didn't have those K percentages in his head at the time, but he very possibly trusted De Aza to get a bat on the ball more than he trusted Sierra to do so. THEN factor in the fact that the advantage on the bases is a component, and it doesn't sound like a horrible decision to me.

 

I am not going to take up the cross for the anti Robin guys here. I think most of them are reasonable and objective with their opinions and not looking to blame Robin but just observing the game as it happens. Robin's job is to increase the odds of success and lessen the odds of failure. He made good moves last night but also bad or if you prefer questionable ones.

 

And similarly, I'm not trying to make Robin out like a genius, I just think that the move we're talking about here (and many others in previous games) are at least defensible moves -- nothing like bone-headed fireable offenses that it seems like people are making them out to be. I'm not saying Robin is awesome, but I'm not seeing anything to suggest that he's taking wins away from the players. He may have made a few mistakes, but they're digging their own graves from what I can see.

 

[ILMOU]

Tyler was the clear choice to PH for De Aza. Despite having a lousy year, and small sample sizes, granted, he's OPSing 450 points better than ADA vs. lefties. And he's currently a "hot" bat, regardless of the reasons or their validity. Two batters ahead of DeAza I noted that Tyler should hit for him if it came to that.

 

Yes, the players failed, inexcusably.

 

Yes, many other changes are also needed.

 

Frustration with players does not excuse Robin's incompetence.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[BlackSox13]

Very few people could do what Ventura is being asked to do: Effectively manage a ML baseball team after being out of baseball for many years, and without a minute of prior coaching experience.

Very good point. Also not Robin's fault Hahn gave Robin and Coop so many reclamation projects either.

[Eminor3rd]

Tyler was the clear choice to PH for De Aza. Despite having a lousy year, and small sample sizes, granted, he's OPSing 450 points better than ADA vs. lefties. And he's currently a "hot" bat, regardless of the reasons or their validity. Two batters ahead of DeAza I noted that Tyler should hit for him if it came to that.

 

Yes, the players failed, inexcusably.

 

Yes, many other changes are also needed.

 

Frustration with players does not excuse Robin's incompetence.

 

Tyler may have been more likely to get a hit there, but he was also way more likely to strikeout and way more likely to hit into a DP.

[ptatc]

Poster's aren't paid to look 2 or 3 moves ahead or manage the team but Robin is. So it really makes no difference when they say the moves are iffy because they are iffy. If you realize it before time, during or after, they are still questionable moves and I don't see you denying that.

 

If it doesn't matter then, it doesn't matter now.

Edited July 28, 2014 by ptatc

[ILMOU]

Tyler may have been more likely to get a hit there, but he was also way more likely to strikeout and way more likely to hit into a DP.

 

Vs. a lefty with a sweeping breaking ball? no. The pitch ADA struck out on was two feet outside.

 

Same pitch might have hit TF on the ankle, tying up the game. Only half-joking here.

 

 

 

[bmags]

Man, if only Viciedo had not struck out on three pitches and not even make contact on two swings. He could have tied the game with a double play to short or second base.

[GreenSox]

Very good point. Also not Robin's fault Hahn gave Robin and Coop so many reclamation projects either.

The personnel shortcomings certainly aren't his fault. As for managing the team, it's not his fault in that he didn't hire himself. But wasn't qualified for the position when hired, and he manages strategically like his resume suggests he would.

Edited July 28, 2014 by GreenSox

[Dick Allen]

The personnel shortcomings certainly aren't his fault. As for managing the team, it's not his fault in that he didn't hire himself. But wasn't qualified for the position when hired, and he manages strategically like his resume suggests he would.

But you seem to know what he should be doing strategically. Can you share your resume?

[RockRaines]

Robin cost us another game today with his idiotic moves and its getting frustrating.

 

As I noted in yesterday's game thread, I feel he's personally cost us at least 15 games this season. Instead of having the best record in baseball, we are struggling to reach .500.

 

If he's not the worst, he has to be in the bottom 5 of all time.

 

I really hope this organization realizes that in the final months of season and makes a change before opening day 2015.

Without Robin this is a first place definite playoff team?

 

Ok.

[ILMOU]

But you seem to know what he should be doing strategically. Can you share your resume?

We're not candidates, so, irrelevant.

[Dick Allen]

We're not candidates, so, irrelevant.

Not irrelevant. If you are saying this experience is required (which BTW, Robin has over 400 games under his belt)yet you don't have it, wouldn't that mean, using your own critieria, you have no idea what you are talking about? If you need this experience to manage, I would imagine this same experience should be needed to be qualified to know what is the right move and what is the wrong move.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

Back in April did anyone think that the board would freak out because Moises Sierra wasn't used as a pinch hitter with the game on the line?