Is Ventura the worst manager in the history of MLB?

[Dick Allen]

Back in April did anyone think that the board would freak out because Moises Sierra wasn't used as a pinch hitter with the game on the line?

Or how about 2 weeks ago and Tyler Flowers?

 

 

Another funny thing is Robin is constantly criticized for putting too much weight in L/R R/L match ups, yet the second he doesn't make a move for one and the Sox don't win..................

[Eminor3rd]

Vs. a lefty with a sweeping breaking ball? no. The pitch ADA struck out on was two feet outside.

 

Same pitch might have hit TF on the ankle, tying up the game. Only half-joking here.

 

Flowers has struck out 36% of the time against lefties this year, 35% overall. De Aza 31% vs lefties, 22% overall.

 

And if you're talking about hindsight versus the specific final pitch of De Aza's at bat, you must now admit that we are way, way beyond talking about managerial strategy.

[GreenSox]

But you seem to know what he should be doing strategically. Can you share your resume?

I know what should have been done when I see De Aza up there in the 9th. It's Ventura's job to think a few moves ahead and know what will need to be done when the inning starts. It's not easy - that's why managers are highly paid.

The ongoing objection to having managers with prior coaching experience is just strange. How many NFL head coaches never coached a minute as an assistant?

Edited July 28, 2014 by GreenSox

[ILMOU]

Not irrelevant. If you are saying this experience is required (which BTW, Robin has over 400 games under his belt)yet you don't have it, wouldn't that mean, using your own critieria, you have no idea what you are talking about? If you need this experience to manage, I would imagine this same experience should be needed to be qualified to know what is the right move and what is the wrong move.

Well, I wasn't the one making the no experience=bad hire argument. My take is that he was hired for his personality, rather than his intelligence, which I believe is wrongheaded. I'm just a guy on a message board, not a bigshot like you, Brooks.

 

Verducci (who I'm generally not a fan of) made a good point yesterday that I think is at play here. He essentially said that in the current era, a team's culture is set by the FO and that most managers are mere extensions of the FO now, with a few exceptions. (Maddon, Showalter, maybe Girardi) In the case of the Sox, all logic has been discombobulated by the Ozzie experience - they merely want a dutiful soldier. That's aiming too low, imo.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[BlackSox13]

The personnel shortcomings certainly aren't his fault. As for managing the team, it's not his fault in that he didn't hire himself. But wasn't qualified for the position when hired, and he manages strategically like his resume suggests he would.

Agreed. Strategy and his limited managing experience is all Robin has to go by. When I get frustrated with Robin I try to remember that he's learning on the fly and it will take some patience. I do feel he will improve as his experience builds.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

Robin Ventura is definitely the worst manager the Sox have right now.

[ILMOU]

Flowers has struck out 36% of the time against lefties this year, 35% overall. De Aza 31% vs lefties, 22% overall.

 

And if you're talking about hindsight versus the specific final pitch of De Aza's at bat, you must now admit that we are way, way beyond talking about managerial strategy.

450 points of OPS. Four hundred and fifty. Tyler was a better option.

 

Anyone can cherry pick here. I'll take my cherries over yours.

[Eminor3rd]

450 points of OPS. Four hundred and fifty. Tyler was a better option.

 

Anyone can cherry pick here. I'll take my cherries over yours.

 

You're taking the argument backward two steps. As I said before: non-DP contact was a more important outcome than a hit at the time. Tyler Flowers was much more likely to strike out and much more likely to hit into a DP.

 

If you still think Flowers was the right option, I can totally respect that. I'm just saying that there is a legitimate argument to use De Aza, which makes Ventura's move NOT insane-o-pants like people are saying, even if you'd ultimately have acted differently.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[RockRaines]

Or how about 2 weeks ago and Tyler Flowers?

 

 

Another funny thing is Robin is constantly criticized for putting too much weight in L/R R/L match ups, yet the second he doesn't make a move for one and the Sox don't win..................

Takes out a pitcher either too early or too late, never perfectly timed. Blah blah blah.

 

I love saying this team should be in first place without Robin, thats how you spell crazy.

[Dick Allen]

Well, I wasn't the one making the no experience=bad hire argument. My take is that he was hired for his personality, rather than his intelligence, which I believe is wrongheaded. I'm just a guy on a message board, not a bigshot like you, Brooks.

 

Verducci (who I'm generally not a fan of) made a good point yesterday that I think is at play here. He essentially said that in the current era, a team's culture is set by the FO and that most managers are mere extensions of the FO now, with a few exceptions. (Maddon, Showalter, maybe Girardi) In the case of the Sox, all logic has been discombobulated by the Ozzie experience - they merely want a dutiful soldier. That's aiming too low, imo.

I am just pointing out we all have less "experience" than Robin. Saying he's not qualified because of that should mean we aren't qualified to point out what he does right or wrong.

[ILMOU]

You're taking the argument backward two steps. As I said before: non-DP contact was a more important outcome than a hit at the time. Tyler Flowers was much more likely to strike out and much more likely to hit into a DP.

We're talking about a difference of ~3K, so a bit hyperbolic on the first bolded. Second bolded is simply wrong - ADA's DP rate is ~4 times as high as TF over the past year (the advantage of being a K machine, I suppose).

 

450 points of OPS easily trumps all this anyway, sorry.

 

Sample size and an overemphasis on recent results are the only legit arguments on your side. Feel free to make them, but we're never going to agree that hitting ADA there was the right move.

 

I am just pointing out we all have less "experience" than Robin. Saying he's not qualified because of that should mean we aren't qualified to point out what he does right or wrong.

 

Of course this is true, we aren't, and again, just a guy on a board, NOT being paid millions to get out in front of game situations. And if only the qualified were allowed to comment on managerial competence (or anything else), the internet would be a corpse.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[Dick Allen]

We're talking about a difference of ~3K, so a bit hyperbolic on the first bolded. Second bolded is simply wrong - ADA's DP rate is ~4 times as high as TF over the past year (the advantage of being a K machine, I suppose).

 

450 points of OPS easily trumps all this anyway, sorry.

 

Sample size and an overemphasis on recent results are the only legit arguments on your side. Feel free to make them, but we're never going to agree that hitting ADA there was the right move.

 

 

 

Of course this is true, we aren't, and again, just a guy on a board, NOT being paid millions to get out in front of game situations. And if only the qualified were allowed to comment on managerial competence (or anything else), the internet would be a corpse.

The other thing to consider is maybe he was thinking 2 steps ahead. Sierra pinch ran for Konerko. Someone said unnecessary, but with runners on 1st and 3rd down 1 with Abreu now out of the line up, you probably have to go for the win there. Other than the obvious about Sierra being more likely to score, he also has to be held on which opens up the infield and has a better chance of breaking up a DP if necessary. With Sierra now essentially the DH, he cannot play in the field in the bottom of the 9th or the Sox lose their DH. Viciedo fans, now if Flowers bats, if he comes through, Tyler is your first basemen the rest of the game. Robin probably like his odds De Aza puts one into play or Beckham who had hit Perkins well, did something better than he did. Obviously, I would rather the game be tied with Flowers playing 1B, Leury in LF, which is probably how it had to go down, but the players didn't come through. It's on them. Not the manager.

[ILMOU]

The other thing to consider is maybe he was thinking 2 steps ahead. Sierra pinch ran for Konerko. Someone said unnecessary, but with runners on 1st and 3rd down 1 with Abreu now out of the line up, you probably have to go for the win there. Other than the obvious about Sierra being more likely to score, he also has to be held on which opens up the infield and has a better chance of breaking up a DP if necessary. With Sierra now essentially the DH, he cannot play in the field in the bottom of the 9th or the Sox lose their DH. Viciedo fans, now if Flowers bats, if he comes through, Tyler is your first basemen the rest of the game. Robin probably like his odds De Aza puts one into play or Beckham who had hit Perkins well, did something better than he did. Obviously, I would rather the game be tied with Flowers playing 1B, Leury in LF, which is probably how it had to go down, but the players didn't come through. It's on them. Not the manager.

Conor could have played 1B. Fathom had the right idea about PRing with a pitcher. PRing for Konerko, which I agreed with, necessitates an out-of-the-box maneuver regardless. Completely agree with the bolded, FWIW.

[Dick Allen]

Conor could have played 1B. Fathom had the right idea about PRing with a pitcher. PRing for Konerko, which I agreed with, necessitates an out-of-the-box maneuver regardless. Completely agree with the bolded, FWIW.

Yes but you can't blame him for not using a pitcher there. Not much experience running bases. I heard Rienzo mentioned, but you may have to use Rienzo later. It would have had to have been a starter, and if Sale or Q or Danks or Noesi either get hurt or make a baserunning blunder, guess who the idiot is?

 

The Sox would have needed Garcia and Flowers to cover one infield and one OF position. As it was, I think Leury was going to play 3B with Conor going to 1b. But if the Sox used Flowers for De Aza, Leury or Flowers would have had to have been in the OF, unless you were OK with playing the rest of the game with no pinch hitters and no DH.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Dick Allen

[ILMOU]

Yes but you can't blame him for not using a pitcher there. Not much experience running bases. I heard Rienzo mentioned, but you may have to use Rienzo later. It would have had to have been a starter, and if Sale or Q or Danks or Noesi either get hurt or make a baserunning blunder, guess who the idiot is?

 

The Sox would have needed Garcia and Flowers to cover one infield and one OF position. As it was, I think Leury was going to play 3B with Conor going to 1b. But if the Sox used Flowers for De Aza, Leury or Flowers would have had to have been in the OF, unless you were OK with playing the rest of the game with no pinch hitters and no DH.

All of this is the proverbial bridge that you cross...... especially the bolded. As I said, PRing for Konerko required out-of-box maneuvers regardless.

[The Ginger Kid]

Just out of curiosity, would Bobby Cox, Joe Torre or Tony LaRussa have this team at a much better record right now? That makes me laugh even typing it.

[southsider2k5]

All of this is the proverbial bridge that you cross...... especially the bolded. As I said, PRing for Konerko required out-of-box maneuvers regardless.

 

So Ventura is supposed to be thinking 2/3 moves ahead, but isn't supposed to when it comes to having pitching depth?

[Eminor3rd]

We're talking about a difference of ~3K, so a bit hyperbolic on the first bolded. Second bolded is simply wrong - ADA's DP rate is ~4 times as high as TF over the past year (the advantage of being a K machine, I suppose).

 

450 points of OPS easily trumps all this anyway, sorry.

 

Sample size and an overemphasis on recent results are the only legit arguments on your side. Feel free to make them, but we're never going to agree that hitting ADA there was the right move.

 

You don't have to agree that it was the right move. I'm just saying it's defensible, and it is. Flowers slow, De Aza fast. Flowers strikes out more than anyone else in the entire league. De Aza strikes out at a league average rate. It's an arguable position, even if you disagree. Therefore, this "RV is worst ever manager" stuff is overblown. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Quin]

Back in April did anyone think that the board would freak out because Moises Sierra wasn't used as a pinch hitter with the game on the line?

 

I wouldn't know who Moises Sierra is.

[The Ultimate Champion]

My 2 cents:

 

-Robin is a dogs*** manager. He's probably nowhere near "worst ever" territory but he's bad enough to where you call him that out of anger. Fans emit emotional responses & overreact to everything, what's new? Robin is bad though, so calling him the worst manager ever is like me calling Big Frank the best hitter ever. Yeah it's an overreaction, but so what? Frank was still incredible & Robin still blows.

 

-Robin's players like him and will play for him. Because of this maybe it's Parent you can & hire someone else to manage the game while Robin is a figurehead/media guy who handles the non-baseball issues & keeps things in order. That could work.

 

-Robin is an organizational hire. He's here because he's not going to step on the toes of those above him & also he's here because of the leadership he showed as a player. My only issues with Robin have been on-field issues, so maybe you bring in someone else for the game decisions and everything is kosher. But if you want Robin making the on-field calls all the time then you should expect to lose close games. That's that, he's a s*** game manager. But because his players will play for him, he's a better manager than a quality game manage who looks to divide the clubhouse and/or can't relate to the players or can't keep the media at arm's length.

 

In summation, I have OPs back if you guys wanna turn this thing into a battle royal. OP overreacted but we all do, but not enough to where his points lose validity. Robin is a s*** game manager and that's that.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I wouldn't know who Moises Sierra is.

You still don't klnow who Moises Sierra is. Neither do I. But as long as Abreu does everything is cool.

Edited July 28, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[2nd_city_saint787]

My 2 cents:

 

-Robin is a dogs*** manager. He's probably nowhere near "worst ever" territory but he's bad enough to where you call him that out of anger. Fans emit emotional responses & overreact to everything, what's new? Robin is bad though, so calling him the worst manager ever is like me calling Big Frank the best hitter ever. Yeah it's an overreaction, but so what? Frank was still incredible & Robin still blows.

 

-Robin's players like him and will play for him. Because of this maybe it's Parent you can & hire someone else to manage the game while Robin is a figurehead/media guy who handles the non-baseball issues & keeps things in order. That could work.

 

-Robin is an organizational hire. He's here because he's not going to step on the toes of those above him & also he's here because of the leadership he showed as a player. My only issues with Robin have been on-field issues, so maybe you bring in someone else for the game decisions and everything is kosher. But if you want Robin making the on-field calls all the time then you should expect to lose close games. That's that, he's a s*** game manager. But because his players will play for him, he's a better manager than a quality game manage who looks to divide the clubhouse and/or can't relate to the players or can't keep the media at arm's length.

 

In summation, I have OPs back if you guys wanna turn this thing into a battle royal. OP overreacted but we all do, but not enough to where his points lose validity. Robin is a s*** game manager and that's that.

 

 

I think he's perceived as a "s*** game manager" by some because his bullpen, for the most part is crap.

 

In the end it's essentially the players that make a manager look good or bad, not the other way around.

[BigEdWalsh]

I think he's perceived as a "s*** game manager" by some because his bullpen, for the most part is crap.

 

In the end it's essentially the players that make a manager look good or bad, not the other way around.

And that's that.

[ILMOU]

You don't have to agree that it was the right move. I'm just saying it's defensible, and it is. Flowers slow, De Aza fast. Flowers strikes out more than anyone else in the entire league. De Aza strikes out at a league average rate. It's an arguable position, even if you disagree. Therefore, this "RV is worst ever manager" stuff is overblown. That's all I'm trying to say.

Complete agreement here. Stated several times that the OP's position was way over the top.

 

There's Yost, there's Bevington - that's 2 right there.

 

So Ventura is supposed to be thinking 2/3 moves ahead, but isn't supposed to when it comes to having pitching depth?

Worrying about Rienzo's availability is thinking 5 innings ahead, which is completely unnecessary and not comparable in the least. And today's an off day, so even less so.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[Boopa1219]

My grade for Ventura would be a B, maybe a B-