Is Ventura the worst manager in the history of MLB?

[BigEdWalsh]

When it comes to truly bad managers in the history, Robin isn't even close. Ted Williams, as great a player as he was, made a horrid manager. I never saw him play but I did see his horrible Washington Senators. Williams was kind of a dick and his players reportedly hated him. Terry Bevington....enough said there. He was an asshole who I met in a drunken state (him not me), not a nice man and a BAD manager.

Buddy Bell was not a good manager. Tony Pena, Ned Yost, Lee Elia, Alan Trammell. As someone else mentioned even good managers can't do much with a lousy team. Case in point, no pun intended, Casey Stengel with the New York Mets.

[chitownsportsfan]

Robin is one of the worst in game tacticians I've seen, that's for sure. He routinely gets late game subs completely wrong and everything from his lineups to when to use the platoon splits to make decsiions --are often head scratchily naive, like decisions you'd expect from a 1st year manager with no experience.

 

Except that was 3 years ago.

 

One thing Robin won't ever do is make waves off the field or throw a player under the bus unfairly. Now, those are points in his favor but I don't think there is any way it's enough to keep him around much after this year. Managers have a shelf life and pretty much any manager will get tuned out after awhile no matter how player friendly they are. Robin isn't seen as much of a hardass / discipline type so I can see the clubhouse getting away from him and then you're left with nothing really to defend him on.

 

 

[RockRaines]

Robin is one of the worst in game tacticians I've seen, that's for sure. He routinely gets late game subs completely wrong and everything from his lineups to when to use the platoon splits to make decsiions --are often head scratchily naive, like decisions you'd expect from a 1st year manager with no experience.

 

Except that was 3 years ago.

 

One thing Robin won't ever do is make waves off the field or throw a player under the bus unfairly. Now, those are points in his favor but I don't think there is any way it's enough to keep him around much after this year. Managers have a shelf life and pretty much any manager will get tuned out after awhile no matter how player friendly they are. Robin isn't seen as much of a hardass / discipline type so I can see the clubhouse getting away from him and then you're left with nothing really to defend him on.

So the players dont perform? And its the managers fault. Please continue the analysis. How many games better should the Sox be without Ventura?

[chitownsportsfan]

So the players dont perform? And its the managers fault. Please continue the analysis. How many games better should the Sox be without Ventura?

 

Dude, I'm talking about obvious noob stuff like running out of pitchers, "forgetting" to PR for Jose and then PR for him when he's on 2B, bringing on a LHP for the platoon matchup and then having the opposing manager make the obvious move to then bring on a righty PH and batting Gordon Beckham and Ramirez 2nd while the guy with the highest OBP on the team can't get out of the bottom 1/3 (Conor).

 

And to answer your question, maybe 1 or 2 games at most. As I've said so many freaking times: managers don't really mean s*** in baseball but that sure as heck you don't try and get the best you can.

[shysocks]

Dude, I'm talking about obvious noob stuff like running out of pitchers, "forgetting" to PR for Jose and then PR for him when he's on 2B, bringing on a LHP for the platoon matchup and then having the opposing manager make the obvious move to then bring on a righty PH and batting Gordon Beckham and Ramirez 2nd while the guy with the highest OBP on the team can't get out of the bottom 1/3 (Conor).

 

And to answer your question, maybe 1 or 2 games at most. As I've said so many freaking times: managers don't really mean s*** in baseball but that sure as heck you don't try and get the best you can.

Intentionally walking Jason Giambi... I was pulling my hair out.

[RockRaines]

Dude, I'm talking about obvious noob stuff like running out of pitchers, "forgetting" to PR for Jose and then PR for him when he's on 2B, bringing on a LHP for the platoon matchup and then having the opposing manager make the obvious move to then bring on a righty PH and batting Gordon Beckham and Ramirez 2nd while the guy with the highest OBP on the team can't get out of the bottom 1/3 (Conor).

 

And to answer your question, maybe 1 or 2 games at most. As I've said so many freaking times: managers don't really mean s*** in baseball but that sure as heck you don't try and get the best you can.

I watched this and nobody "forgot" anything. That obvious noob stuff is once again based on outcomes that would have been different had the players actually come through. But hey, 1-2 games per manager, who really cares then.

[JoshPR]

Well this should be fun.

Man you weren't kidding

[chitownsportsfan]

I watched this and nobody "forgot" anything. That obvious noob stuff is once again based on outcomes that would have been different had the players actually come through. But hey, 1-2 games per manager, who really cares then.

 

Yea, because no team has ever missed the playoffs by a game. Are you serious with this s***? I can't tell if you're trolling hard or what.

 

Riddle me this: either Robin forgot to PR for Jose when he was on 1st or he changed his mind once he was in scoring position. The possible explanations are: Robin doesn't really understand baserunning leverage (not a good thing, hard to believe since he played professional) or he forgot, or he changed his mind. All 3 options are awful, pick one.

 

Ok brainfart, but Robin has a lot of brain farts.

[Texsox]

As I have always believed

 

Managers get too much credit and too much blame.

 

Ed,

I met Bevington a few seasons ago while he was managing in an independent league that came to town. I came by the dugout and he saw the Sox cap and he wasn't certain what the reaction would be. He was very nice. He asked if I was going to ask about the bullpen moment, I laughed and said no, that had been beat to death. He still gave the impression he was just killing time between drinks.

[southsider2k5]

Yea, because no team has ever missed the playoffs by a game. Are you serious with this s***? I can't tell if you're trolling hard or what.

 

Riddle me this: either Robin forgot to PR for Jose when he was on 1st or he changed his mind once he was in scoring position. The possible explanations are: Robin doesn't really understand baserunning leverage (not a good thing, hard to believe since he played professional) or he forgot, or he changed his mind. All 3 options are awful, pick one.

 

Ok brainfart, but Robin has a lot of brain farts.

 

This. You don't want to lose Abreu if possible, and if you do, you want the best possible odds for scoring. Scoring from 2nd is much easier than scoring from 1st.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Yea, because no team has ever missed the playoffs by a game. Are you serious with this s***? I can't tell if you're trolling hard or what.

 

Riddle me this: either Robin forgot to PR for Jose when he was on 1st or he changed his mind once he was in scoring position. The possible explanations are: Robin doesn't really understand baserunning leverage (not a good thing, hard to believe since he played professional) or he forgot, or he changed his mind. All 3 options are awful, pick one.

 

Ok brainfart, but Robin has a lot of brain farts.

Robin Ventura:

1 step behind the action

2 steps behind the fans watching

3 steps behind the announcers calling the game

4 steps behind the opposing manager

[ptatc]

Dude, I'm talking about obvious noob stuff like running out of pitchers, "forgetting" to PR for Jose and then PR for him when he's on 2B, bringing on a LHP for the platoon matchup and then having the opposing manager make the obvious move to then bring on a righty PH and batting Gordon Beckham and Ramirez 2nd while the guy with the highest OBP on the team can't get out of the bottom 1/3 (Conor).

 

And to answer your question, maybe 1 or 2 games at most. As I've said so many freaking times: managers don't really mean s*** in baseball but that sure as heck you don't try and get the best you can.

Maybe he doesn't trust a younger player higher in the order or maybe Conor told him he is not comfortable in that spot. You could force a player to hit there but what would it do to his performance. There are many variable that go into the lineup not just "the guy with the highest OBP" hits second.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Robin's brain = footlong chili cheese dog hence the farting

[ptatc]

Robin's brain = footlong chili cheese dog hence the farting

1.00 weenie wedsnesdays at the creamery! I love the chilli cheese dogs.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Maybe he doesn't trust a younger player higher in the order or maybe Conor told him he is not comfortable in that spot. You could force a player to hit there but what would it do to his performance. There are many variable that go into the lineup not just "the guy with the highest OBP" hits second.

Then you get Leury Garcia betting leadoff you have to wonder whether Connor's spot int he order is the product of great thought or just Robin being Robin ie footlong chili cheese dog being footlong chili cheese dog

[chitownsportsfan]

This. You don't want to lose Abreu if possible, and if you do, you want the best possible odds for scoring. Scoring from 2nd is much easier than scoring from 1st.

 

I disagree. Most runners non PK style will score form 2nd on a single. Most runners non Adam Eaton / Garcia / Moises on the Sox won't score from 1st on a double.

 

If you are going to take Jose out, you freaking commit to it right away and get Garcia or Moises out there so they can score on a double from 1st. Again, not even saying that the decision was that awful -- but the thought process is deeply worrying to me.

[The Ultimate Champion]

1.00 weenie wedsnesdays at the creamery! I love the chilli cheese dogs.

me too (all of us, although mine is turkey dog w/ turkey chili TYVM) but I dont want my footlong chili cheese dog managing the baseball game I barely trust the thing long enough to manage its way down my esophagus & into my belly sometimes it doesnt have a lot of time to react it goes down so quick

[southsider2k5]

I disagree. Most runners non PK style will score form 2nd on a single. Most runners non Adam Eaton / Garcia / Moises on the Sox won't score from 1st on a double.

 

If you are going to take Jose out, you freaking commit to it right away and get Garcia or Moises out there so they can score on a double from 1st. Again, not even saying that the decision was that awful -- but the thought process is deeply worrying to me.

 

How do you know what his decision making process was?

[ptatc]

Then you get Leury Garcia betting leadoff you have to wonder whether Connor's spot int he order is the product of great thought or just Robin being Robin ie footlong chili cheese dog being footlong chili cheese dog

That is more because you want to keep the consistency in the rest of the order when Eaton needs a break. Why mess with everyone when one guy needs a break. Maybe Garcia is used to being in that spot through out his minor league career and is more comfortable there.

[ptatc]

me too (all of us, although mine is turkey dog w/ turkey chili TYVM) but I dont want my footlong chili cheese dog managing the baseball game I barely trust the thing long enough to manage its way down my esophagus & into my belly sometimes it doesnt have a lot of time to react it goes down so quick

Across the street from Coors field is a place called Biker Jim's hotdogs. I has a pheasant brat wrapped in ham wrapped in swiss cheese and deep fried for a phesant cordon bleu dog. I could have died right there from the taste and the cholesterol.

 

I think it would make a dang fine manager.

Edited July 28, 2014 by ptatc

[The Ultimate Champion]

That is more because you want to keep the consistency in the rest of the order when Eaton needs a break. Why mess with everyone when one guy needs a break. Maybe Garcia is used to being in that spot through out his minor league career and is more comfortable there.

Oh I know that is *his* reasoning, I'm just saying that *his* reasoning often makes no sense. When there's like 10 different options and you're consistenly picking between the 3 dumbest actions to take then I just have to wonder whgether you are a managert guy ore a footlong chili cheese dog, that's all.

[ptatc]

Oh I know that is *his* reasoning, I'm just saying that *his* reasoning often makes no sense. When there's like 10 different options and you're consistenly picking between the 3 dumbest actions to take then I just have to wonder whgether you are a managert guy ore a footlong chili cheese dog, that's all.

If this is the case, I wouldn't put a player in where he wasn't comfortable either. That is just a recipe for long term disaster. You may do it for a trial but during a long season you need to put the players in the best position to win and consistently putting them in uncomfortable positions or continually changing them is not a winning recipe (you've made me hungry with the dogs references).

[SCCWS]

I disagree. Most runners non PK style will score form 2nd on a single. Most runners non Adam Eaton / Garcia / Moises on the Sox won't score from 1st on a double.

 

If you are going to take Jose out, you freaking commit to it right away and get Garcia or Moises out there so they can score on a double from 1st. Again, not even saying that the decision was that awful -- but the thought process is deeply worrying to me.

 

 

Joe Maddon is a pretty good basball manager. He did the exact same thing the other night against the Red Sox. He pinch ran for James Loney but only after he got to 2nd base. The Red Sox color man ( Remy) noted that some managers will pull a starter for a runner from 2nd but not first late in a game.

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

You guys remember when Ozzie batted Timo leadoff a few times in 05? Ya, that season sucked, I'm surprised Ozzie wasn't fired after that year.

[chitownsportsfan]

Joe Maddon is a pretty good basball manager. He did the exact same thing the other night against the Red Sox. He pinch ran for James Loney but only after he got to 2nd base. The Red Sox color man ( Remy) noted that some managers will pull a starter for a runner from 2nd but not first late in a game.

 

Pulling up some research on this topic led me to this:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/27...ive-baserunning

 

Interesting, but to really analyze the issue we'd need to know the % of times Jose goes from 1st to 3rd on a single verse say Garcia or Moises does. Judging from Jose's baserunning numbers on Fangraphs, it's not that often. He's not a plodder like Konerko thank god, but he's average at best.

 

If I was the manager I would have just left him in there. I think pinch runners are over used personally.