Is Ventura the worst manager in the history of MLB?

[LDF]

Or the injuries etc. Fact is that was what they thought the talent of the Sox would do. And they are in the hunt for the WC at least a year too early. I think thats pretty damn good.

 

that hunt is hurting b/c the sox could've really used another high 1 rounder..... wish the sox had the mentality

of a HOU, sCrub, or even the marlins, aim for high draft pick.

[LittleHurt05]

It's pretty complex to try and take apart in any meaningful way, but I doubt PECOTA had Abreu where he is right now.

 

Did PECOTA even have Sale where he is right now?

[RockRaines]

Did PECOTA even have Sale where he is right now?

Here is ZIPS player projections

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2014-zips-p...cago-white-sox/

[witesoxfan]

that hunt is hurting b/c the sox could've really used another high 1 rounder..... wish the sox had the mentality

of a HOU, sCrub, or even the marlins, aim for high draft pick.

 

No, no, no, no no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no

[Dick Allen]

Eaton DL

Abreu DL

Gillaspie DL

Garcia DL

Sale DL

Jones DL

Lindstrom DL

Beckham DL

 

 

If someone told you this would have happened, would you really think hovering near .500 meant a terrible job of managing?

[LittleHurt05]

Here is ZIPS player projections

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2014-zips-p...cago-white-sox/

 

So not at all. They predicted him to pitch the same as 2012-13 and be a great pitcher. Instead he's become on of the top 3 pitchers in all of baseball.

[Dick Allen]

So not at all. They predicted him to pitch the same as 2012-13 and be a great pitcher. Instead he's become on of the top 3 pitchers in all of baseball.

He also has missed several starts.

[VAfan]

Still waiting for someone defending Robin to argue that he's helped the Sox win more games than they would have with an average manager. You can take whatever you want into account.

 

Instead, all I've read is that, well, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre weren't great managers at first. Which seems to me a backhanded admission that Robin Ventura isn't a good manager now either.

 

Sorry, but we aren't debating whether Robin Ventura might become a good manager at some hypothetical time in the future, AFTER he stops making the many poor decisions he's been making over the last 2+ years. We're debating whether Ventura is a good manager NOW, and I think those of us who argue he's below par are winning the argument rather handily.

 

Also, to the reasons I gave above for why I think Robin costs the Sox games, I would add last season's horrible fundamentals. We had to be the worst team in baseball fundamentals. To me, that speaks volumes about a manager. Yes, the players execute, but it's the manager's job to get them prepared to play.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Eaton DL

Abreu DL

Gillaspie DL

Garcia DL

Sale DL

Jones DL

Lindstrom DL

Beckham DL

 

 

If someone told you this would have happened, would you really think hovering near .500 meant a terrible job of managing?

 

Paulino and Rienzo have been disastrous too. Belisario has given up a lot of runs, Scott Downs was DFA'd, Donnie Veal has been in the minors.

[RockRaines]

Still waiting for someone defending Robin to argue that he's helped the Sox win more games than they would have with an average manager. You can take whatever you want into account.

Who are the "average managers" to compare him against?

[LittleHurt05]

He also has missed several starts.

 

That's true. I guess if he stays at this pace, he would probably have the same value had he made every start pitching like the projections had him. (I wasn't trying to automatically shoot down Robin, just looking at both sides of the projections)

[Dick Allen]

Still waiting for someone defending Robin to argue that he's helped the Sox win more games than they would have with an average manager. You can take whatever you want into account.

 

Instead, all I've read is that, well, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre weren't great managers at first. Which seems to me a backhanded admission that Robin Ventura isn't a good manager now either.

 

Sorry, but we aren't debating whether Robin Ventura might become a good manager at some hypothetical time in the future, AFTER he stops making the many poor decisions he's been making over the last 2+ years. We're debating whether Ventura is a good manager NOW, and I think those of us who argue he's below par are winning the argument rather handily.

 

Also, to the reasons I gave above for why I think Robin costs the Sox games, I would add last season's horrible fundamentals. We had to be the worst team in baseball fundamentals. To me, that speaks volumes about a manager. Yes, the players execute, but it's the manager's job to get them prepared to play.

I think he's a good manager. I mentioned the others because the just went into the HOF. You can add Maddon to them, and at the same point in their careers, their teams, with talent that was short, just like Robin, weren't winning. They must have been idiots too. A manager doesn't take a 99 loss team and make them champions. He also doesn't take a team that should win 90 games and wind up losing 100. Your criticism is crazy. All things considered, IMO, the White Sox have won more games than they should.

 

The arguments about what has he done to increase the win total, also is tied into talent. If another manager does the exact same thing as Ventura but has a more capable player who executes it, while Robin has a mediocre player fail, that manager gets credit. Robin, no matter what he does, if it doesn't work, is an idiot to a lot of people. This isn't school. The right answer doesn't always work.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

I think we have forgotten about how completely awful the team was last year. That had absolutely nothing to do with Robin at all.

[LDF]

Still waiting for someone defending Robin to argue that he's helped the Sox win more games than they would have with an average manager. You can take whatever you want into account.

 

Instead, all I've read is that, well, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre weren't great managers at first. Which seems to me a backhanded admission that Robin Ventura isn't a good manager now either.

 

Sorry, but we aren't debating whether Robin Ventura might become a good manager at some hypothetical time in the future, AFTER he stops making the many poor decisions he's been making over the last 2+ years. We're debating whether Ventura is a good manager NOW, and I think those of us who argue he's below par are winning the argument rather handily.

 

Also, to the reasons I gave above for why I think Robin costs the Sox games, I would add last season's horrible fundamentals. We had to be the worst team in baseball fundamentals. To me, that speaks volumes about a manager. Yes, the players execute, but it's the manager's job to get them prepared to play.

 

sorry for interjecting on this discussion, but there are more to this then we know of. why would JR give robin the job

in the first place without much experience? I wanted sandberg but was happy with robin. why, b/c he is there to manned

the position until the sox can compete and I still think until that time, it is OJT.

Edited July 30, 2014 by LDF

[VAfan]

Now, let me give you one example game why Ventura drives me crazy. It was last season in Washington, where I got to see the game in person.

 

Here's the write up:

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=330411120

 

Here's the dilemma Chicago White Sox manager Robin Ventura faced Thursday night in the fourth inning of a close game against the Washington Nationals:

 

Pitch to No. 3 hitter Bryce Harper with a runner on base or walk Harper and pitch instead to cleanup man Ryan Zimmerman with two aboard.

More from ESPN.com

 

Bryce Harper continued his red-hot start, helping the Nationals finish off a sweep of the White Sox. And just think: He's still learning, writes David Schoenfield. SweetSpot

 

Ventura chose to have right-hander Dylan Axelrod intentionally walk the lefty-swinging Harper. That brought up the right-handed Zimmerman, who delivered a two-run double, breaking the game open and helping the Nationals beat the White Sox 7-4 for a three-game sweep.

 

"You're rolling the dice either way," Ventura said. "You just take your chance."

 

Nationals manager Davey Johnson raised an eyebrow and grinned when asked what he thought about that sequence.

 

"I'm glad," Johnson said, "I don't have to make those decisions."

 

Zimmerman's modest take?

 

"I wouldn't pitch a righty against Bryce right now, either," he said.

 

Ventura's basic, two-word explanation: "Harper's hot."

 

That's certainly true, and Harper himself wasn't surprised about the walk there, saying, "First base open. Hitting righties pretty good."

 

So there you have Robin himself saying "you're rolling the dice either way" and "you take your chance" and "Harper's hot."

 

But it leaves out some critical information.

 

At that point in the game -- only the 4th inning -- Dylan Axelrod had already thrown close to 100 pitches. He wasn't going to get you into the 5th, or 6th, or 7th. So there was NO POINT in having him extend to pitch to Ryan Zimmerman.

 

Ventura also had Hector Santiago completely warmed up in the pen, ready to pitch to the lefty Bryce Harper. And Santiago was sharp. When he finally entered the game, AFTER Ventura let Axelrod LOSE IT, he threw 2.1 innings without giving up a hit.

 

So what does Ventura do in a game the White Sox had just tied 3-3? He lets his worn-out starter stay in, intentionally walk Bryce Harper, and then face Ryan Zimmerman, INSTEAD of yanking his starter (who was gone anyway before he got any more outs) for a fresh lefty from the pen to face Harper, with two outs.

 

Here's the play-by-play from the 4th inning.

 

Dylan Axelrod pitching for Chicago CHW WSH

W Ramos popped out to first. 3 3

D Haren doubled to deep right. 3 3

D Span flied out to center. 3 3

J Werth singled to left, D Haren to third. 3 3

D Haren scored, J Werth to second on wild pitch by D Axelrod. 3 4

B Harper intentionally walked. 3 4

R Zimmerman doubled to deep right, J Werth and B Harper scored. 3 6

H Santiago relieved D Axelrod. 3 6

A LaRoche struck out looking. 3 6

3 Runs, 3 Hits, 0 Errors

 

The Sox could have won this game. After Werth's single, and BEFORE Axelrod throws a wild pitch to let Washington take the lead, just bring in Santiago to face Harper. Santiago was sharp. Axelrod was TOAST. Simple decision. But not to Robin Ventura. "You're rolling the dice either way." WTF????? REALLY????? Not only does he fail to make the right move, he acts after the game like it was a toss-up!!!

 

I haven't had any respect for Robin Ventura's game management skills since.

[southsider2k5]

Still waiting for someone defending Robin to argue that he's helped the Sox win more games than they would have with an average manager. You can take whatever you want into account.

 

Instead, all I've read is that, well, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre weren't great managers at first. Which seems to me a backhanded admission that Robin Ventura isn't a good manager now either.

 

Sorry, but we aren't debating whether Robin Ventura might become a good manager at some hypothetical time in the future, AFTER he stops making the many poor decisions he's been making over the last 2+ years. We're debating whether Ventura is a good manager NOW, and I think those of us who argue he's below par are winning the argument rather handily.

 

Also, to the reasons I gave above for why I think Robin costs the Sox games, I would add last season's horrible fundamentals. We had to be the worst team in baseball fundamentals. To me, that speaks volumes about a manager. Yes, the players execute, but it's the manager's job to get them prepared to play.

 

I noticed you said last year, and not this year. Does that mean they improved this year in your opinion? I know they have in mine. We are seeing fewer base running issues, crisper throw execution, and a generally baseball smarter team (with a couple of individual exceptions). Even a guy like Alexei who had one of the worst baseball IQ's I have ever seen for most of his tenure here, isn't really making noticeable mistakes anymore.

[RockRaines]

[/b]

 

I noticed you said last year, and not this year. Does that mean they improved this year in your opinion? I know they have in mine. We are seeing fewer base running issues, crisper throw execution, and a generally baseball smarter team (with a couple of individual exceptions). Even a guy like Alexei who had one of the worst baseball IQ's I have ever seen for most of his tenure here, isn't really making noticeable mistakes anymore.

Thats the players making improvements of course, nothing to do with the manager. An average manager has this team leading the wildcard.

[VAfan]

As for how many games has Robin cost the team in 2014?

 

Well, how many blown saves does Bellisario have? Does anyone here think Bellisario should have been the closer when Lindstrom went down?

 

Or why does he seem to have an infatuation with Javy Guerra in tight games, when he's blown saves in all 4 of his opportunities?

 

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Now, let me give you one example game why Ventura drives me crazy. It was last season in Washington, where I got to see the game in person.

 

Here's the write up:

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=330411120

 

 

 

So there you have Robin himself saying "you're rolling the dice either way" and "you take your chance" and "Harper's hot."

 

But it leaves out some critical information.

 

At that point in the game -- only the 4th inning -- Dylan Axelrod had already thrown close to 100 pitches. He wasn't going to get you into the 5th, or 6th, or 7th. So there was NO POINT in having him extend to pitch to Ryan Zimmerman.

 

Ventura also had Hector Santiago completely warmed up in the pen, ready to pitch to the lefty Bryce Harper. And Santiago was sharp. When he finally entered the game, AFTER Ventura let Axelrod LOSE IT, he threw 2.1 innings without giving up a hit.

 

So what does Ventura do in a game the White Sox had just tied 3-3? He lets his worn-out starter stay in, intentionally walk Bryce Harper, and then face Ryan Zimmerman, INSTEAD of yanking his starter (who was gone anyway before he got any more outs) for a fresh lefty from the pen to face Harper, with two outs.

 

Here's the play-by-play from the 4th inning.

 

Dylan Axelrod pitching for Chicago CHW WSH

W Ramos popped out to first. 3 3

D Haren doubled to deep right. 3 3

D Span flied out to center. 3 3

J Werth singled to left, D Haren to third. 3 3

D Haren scored, J Werth to second on wild pitch by D Axelrod. 3 4

B Harper intentionally walked. 3 4

R Zimmerman doubled to deep right, J Werth and B Harper scored. 3 6

H Santiago relieved D Axelrod. 3 6

A LaRoche struck out looking. 3 6

3 Runs, 3 Hits, 0 Errors

 

The Sox could have won this game. After Werth's single, and BEFORE Axelrod throws a wild pitch to let Washington take the lead, just bring in Santiago to face Harper. Santiago was sharp. Axelrod was TOAST. Simple decision. But not to Robin Ventura. "You're rolling the dice either way." WTF????? REALLY????? Not only does he fail to make the right move, he acts after the game like it was a toss-up!!!

 

I haven't had any respect for Robin Ventura's game management skills since.

 

In Axelrod's 2nd start and and the Sox 9th game of the season, Ventura put faith in his young starting pitcher and tested him to see if he could get out a right handed hitter in a crucial point of the game. This was a week after he went 5.2 innings of 1 run baseball against the Mariners and King Felix. He failed. He then strung together 4 quality starts following that game, so maybe Axelrod learned something about himself in that game.

 

Even if you disagreed with it, I think you are being incredibly nitpicky with this. Even in hindsight, I have no problem with the decision that was made.

[VAfan]

[/b]

 

I noticed you said last year, and not this year. Does that mean they improved this year in your opinion? I know they have in mine. We are seeing fewer base running issues, crisper throw execution, and a generally baseball smarter team (with a couple of individual exceptions). Even a guy like Alexei who had one of the worst baseball IQ's I have ever seen for most of his tenure here, isn't really making noticeable mistakes anymore.

 

I did say last year. I would certainly hope a gold glove winning manager would have been so disgusted by the lack of fundamentals from last year that he wouldn't screw it up so badly this year. I think Ventura learned a lesson there, and has improved.

 

That doesn't make him a good manager. He still blows games regularly with bad bullpen management, and the kind of errors highlighted in the game that started this thread. And he still appears to sleepwalk through his job.

[shysocks]

As for how many games has Robin cost the team in 2014?

 

Well, how many blown saves does Bellisario have? Does anyone here think Bellisario should have been the closer when Lindstrom went down?

 

Or why does he seem to have an infatuation with Javy Guerra in tight games, when he's blown saves in all 4 of his opportunities?

This guy!

 

He was by far the hottest reliever at the time and the bullpen is full of interchangeable guys who live and die with their BABIPs.

 

I think Robin is a subpar manager too, but that isn't one of the reasons. It's 80% because he intentionally walked Jason Giambi.

[Dick Allen]

As for how many games has Robin cost the team in 2014?

 

Well, how many blown saves does Bellisario have? Does anyone here think Bellisario should have been the closer when Lindstrom went down?

 

Or why does he seem to have an infatuation with Javy Guerra in tight games, when he's blown saves in all 4 of his opportunities?

Guerra's been in middle relief. The bullpen has been a mess. Guerra has prior closing experience. BTW, Middle relievers rarely have save opportunities they can convert. They pretty much can only blow a save. Using a middle reliever's save percentage as proof a manager is an idiot, shows you would think every manager is an idiot.

[witesoxfan]

As for how many games has Robin cost the team in 2014?

 

Well, how many blown saves does Bellisario have?

 

Just so we have it on record - every game that Belisario blew was Robin Ventura's fault even though Belisario was the one throwing the ball.

 

Does anyone here think Bellisario should have been the closer when Lindstrom went down?

 

I said it in this thread. It was absolutely the right move.

 

Or why does he seem to have an infatuation with Javy Guerra in tight games, when he's blown saves in all 4 of his opportunities?

 

How many times has he pitched in the 9th inning? How many blown holds does he have? Should he never pitch Javy Guerra? Do you understand that you can blow saves in the 6th and 7th and 8th innings, but you cannot get saves in those innings?

[VAfan]

Here's a good question --

 

How many here think Robin Ventura is an improvement over Ozzie Guillen as a manager?

 

I would say he was an improvement over Ozzie's last year managing the Sox, when Ozzie was trying to get fired so he could manage the Marlins.

 

Otherwise, despite Ozzie's faults, I would take him over Ventura hands down. Guillen did some things that drove me crazy, but he did a very good job managing pitchers. And he also put the Sox on the map, getting them to believe they could compete for and win a World Series. I don't see any of that in Robin.

[witesoxfan]

I did say last year. I would certainly hope a gold glove winning manager would have been so disgusted by the lack of fundamentals from last year that he wouldn't screw it up so badly this year. I think Ventura learned a lesson there, and has improved.

 

That doesn't make him a good manager. He still blows games regularly with bad bullpen management, and the kind of errors highlighted in the game that started this thread. And he still appears to sleepwalk through his job.

 

Do you know how he was preparing his players? By all accounts, nothing changed from 2012 to 2013, yet the Sox went from one of the best fielding and fundamentally sound teams to one of the worst. Is that Robin's fault or the players' fault?