Is Ventura the worst manager in the history of MLB?

[witesoxfan]

Here's a good question --

 

How many here think Robin Ventura is an improvement over Ozzie Guillen as a manager?

 

I would say he was an improvement over Ozzie's last year managing the Sox, when Ozzie was trying to get fired so he could manage the Marlins.

 

Otherwise, despite Ozzie's faults, I would take him over Ventura hands down. Guillen did some things that drove me crazy, but he did a very good job managing pitchers. And he also put the Sox on the map, getting them to believe they could compete for and win a World Series. I don't see any of that in Robin.

 

There has never been a doubt in my mind that he's been a much, much better manager than Ozzie Guillen.

[VAfan]

In Axelrod's 2nd start and and the Sox 9th game of the season, Ventura put faith in his young starting pitcher and tested him to see if he could get out a right handed hitter in a crucial point of the game. This was a week after he went 5.2 innings of 1 run baseball against the Mariners and King Felix. He failed. He then strung together 4 quality starts following that game, so maybe Axelrod learned something about himself in that game.

 

Even if you disagreed with it, I think you are being incredibly nitpicky with this. Even in hindsight, I have no problem with the decision that was made.

 

Axelrod was DONE. Almost 100 pitches in the bottom of the 4th. This was NOT an issue about "testing" his young pitcher. And it certainly was not a "toss up" decision. It was a completely BONEHEADED move that is made to look more stupid by his comments after the game.

 

I don't care if you continue to have faith in Robin Ventura as a tactical game manager. Robin lost me that game, and nothing he's done since has changed my mind.

[VAfan]

There has never been a doubt in my mind that he's been a much, much better manager than Ozzie Guillen.

 

Really? Ozzie Guillen managed the White Sox to their only World Series win in yours or my lifetime. For that alone, he has earned my eternal respect, even if some of the things he did as a manager drove me crazy.

[witesoxfan]

Axelrod was DONE. Almost 100 pitches in the bottom of the 4th. This was NOT an issue about "testing" his young pitcher. And it certainly was not a "toss up" decision. It was a completely BONEHEADED move that is made to look more stupid by his comments after the game.

 

I don't care if you continue to have faith in Robin Ventura as a tactical game manager. Robin lost me that game, and nothing he's done since has changed my mind.

 

This was almost certainly an issue of testing and putting faith into a young starting pitcher, trying to help him gain confidence. It was the 9th game of the season. You're crazy to think that he's going to start going to the bullpen when the pitcher has given up 3 runs and the game is tied in the 4th inning, even if he did have a very high pitch count.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Really? Ozzie Guillen managed the White Sox to their only World Series win in yours or my lifetime. For that alone, he has earned my eternal respect, even if some of the things he did as a manager drove me crazy.

 

I am forever grateful too. It doesn't change the fact that he was not a very good manager.

[RockRaines]

Really? Ozzie Guillen managed the White Sox to their only World Series win in yours or my lifetime. For that alone, he has earned my eternal respect, even if some of the things he did as a manager drove me crazy.

/argument

[VAfan]

This guy!

 

He was by far the hottest reliever at the time and the bullpen is full of interchangeable guys who live and die with their BABIPs.

 

I think Robin is a subpar manager too, but that isn't one of the reasons. It's 80% because he intentionally walked Jason Giambi.

 

So let's say you thought Bellisario should have been the guy. I think that can be argued. The problem is, I don't think it could have been argued after a couple of Bellisario outings. He went from being decent to good in a set up role, to being pretty bad as a closer.

 

And as for Javy Guerra being a set up guy, of course I understand that. But he can still blow a save in that role. And he's tied with Bellisario for 4 blown saves on the team in only 23 appearances. Which means he entered in a hold situation, and gave up the lead.

[VAfan]

This was almost certainly an issue of testing and putting faith into a young starting pitcher, trying to help him gain confidence. It was the 9th game of the season. You're crazy to think that he's going to start going to the bullpen when the pitcher has given up 3 runs and the game is tied in the 4th inning, even if he did have a very high pitch count.

 

Except that he did go to the bullpen one batter later, AFTER he let the "young starting pitcher" blow the game.

[Dick Allen]

Am I the only one that finds it odd Vafan doesn't like Ventura because he walked Bryce Harper with runners on 2nd and 3rd last season with a RHP on the mound? On that date, Harper was hitting .417. Zimmerman .241.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Dick Allen

[2nd_city_saint787]

How exactly do you quantify wins and losses that are put solely on a manager? To me managers don't win games, players do. Period.

 

Is Bobby Cox a HoF manager without Smoltz, Glavine, Maddox, Chipper, Jones etc.?

 

Is Joe Torre a HoF manager without being at the head of a team that "Buys championships"?

 

Is Larussa a HoF manager without Fisk, Kittle, Baines, that Sox rotation, McGwire, Canseco, Henderson, Pujols etc.?

 

I still agree with Hawk when he basically said that managers don't matter and that a fan could do it. If there's talent on the field, I don't care if Greg775 is the manager, that team will go as far as the talent allows. Right now the Sox simply don't have enough talent. You give RV a better bullpen, another middle of the lineup bat, and another starter or 2 and he'd be "Successful"

Edited July 30, 2014 by scs787

[witesoxfan]

Except that he did go to the bullpen one batter later, AFTER he let the "young starting pitcher" blow the game.

 

Yes, at that point, the score was then 6-3, Axelrod was at 103 pitches, and another lefty in LaRoche was up with a runner in scoring position.

[chitownsportsfan]

On a related note, I've been critical of how Robin has treated Webb (pretty much as the 4th or 5th guy out of the pen) but now it's time to take off the kid gloves and let him see some high leverage innings. They wanted to bring him along slow well OK great, now put him under a bit more pressure and see how he responds. Stuff wise, he has the potential to be a good setup or decent closer imo, certainly as good as Reed was for the Sox.

[southsider2k5]

As for how many games has Robin cost the team in 2014?

 

Well, how many blown saves does Bellisario have? Does anyone here think Bellisario should have been the closer when Lindstrom went down?

 

Or why does he seem to have an infatuation with Javy Guerra in tight games, when he's blown saves in all 4 of his opportunities?

 

Actually a lot of people felt Bellasario was the next closer.

 

And don't use the save stat out of context. Guerra has not been the actual closer in any game that I can recall. He has been a middle reliever. Calling a middle reliever bad because of blown saves is one of the worst abuses of a stat known to baseball-kind.

[southsider2k5]

Here's a good question --

 

How many here think Robin Ventura is an improvement over Ozzie Guillen as a manager?

 

I would say he was an improvement over Ozzie's last year managing the Sox, when Ozzie was trying to get fired so he could manage the Marlins.

 

Otherwise, despite Ozzie's faults, I would take him over Ventura hands down. Guillen did some things that drove me crazy, but he did a very good job managing pitchers. And he also put the Sox on the map, getting them to believe they could compete for and win a World Series. I don't see any of that in Robin.

 

I would say he is a clear improvement over the post- World Series Ozzie Guillen. I wouldn't even hesitate for a second.

[southsider2k5]

On a related note, I've been critical of how Robin has treated Webb (pretty much as the 4th or 5th guy out of the pen) but now it's time to take off the kid gloves and let him see some high leverage innings. They wanted to bring him along slow well OK great, now put him under a bit more pressure and see how he responds. Stuff wise, he has the potential to be a good setup or decent closer imo, certainly as good as Reed was for the Sox.

 

They obviously don't feel he is ready yet, or he would have been tried.

[chitownsportsfan]

I would say he is a clear improvement over the post- World Series Ozzie Guillen. I wouldn't even hesitate for a second.

 

The problem with Ozzie is that he wanted to fill out the roster with guys that hit like he did. If KW actually put his foot down and refused to bring in some of those guys the team would have been better off imo. I really liked how Ozzie managed the pen (defined roles, something Robin seems to struggle with) and his "sunday lineups" imo were a good thing as I think it's important to keep guys fresh and I didn't mind sitting a couple starters on one designated day.

 

Ozzie started to think that he was more important than than the 25 man roster sometime around 2006 and that was when it all went downhill. He stuck his nose in with personnel decisions and started throwing guys under the bus in the media, not a good combo.

[chitownsportsfan]

They obviously don't feel he is ready yet, or he would have been tried.

 

Well that's what I'm saying he's got like 50 low leverage innings might as well start throwing him into the fire what do we have to lose? If he can't handle at least you find out in a rebuilding year, no downside imo.

[southsider2k5]

The problem with Ozzie is that he wanted to fill out the roster with guys that hit like he did. If KW actually put his foot down and refused to bring in some of those guys the team would have been better off imo. I really liked how Ozzie managed the pen (defined roles, something Robin seems to struggle with) and his "sunday lineups" imo were a good thing as I think it's important to keep guys fresh and I didn't mind sitting a couple starters on one designated day.

 

Ozzie started to think that he was more important than than the 25 man roster sometime around 2006 and that was when it all went downhill. He stuck his nose in with personnel decisions and started throwing guys under the bus in the media, not a good combo.

 

I'm here to tell you guys that neither Guillen, nor Ventura, manage the bullpen. It is Don Freaking Cooper who manages the entire pitching staff. This team always had defined roles up until this year, when it just so happened that everyone was either hurt, or really sucky. The differences you are seeing this year are 100% related to the roster, and nothing to do with Ventura managing a pitching staff.

[southsider2k5]

Well that's what I'm saying he's got like 50 low leverage innings might as well start throwing him into the fire what do we have to lose? If he can't handle at least you find out in a rebuilding year, no downside imo.

 

He hasn't handled any leverage at all this year. Even mop up roles have been sloppy. Until he quits walking guys, that will be the case.

[chitownsportsfan]

I'm here to tell you guys that neither Guillen, nor Ventura, manage the bullpen. It is Don Freaking Cooper who manages the entire pitching staff. This team always had defined roles up until this year, when it just so happened that everyone was either hurt, or really sucky. The differences you are seeing this year are 100% related to the roster, and nothing to do with Ventura managing a pitching staff.

 

I honestly have a hard time believing that any manager, who is a very clear #2 on the pecking order on the baseball side of things in an MLB FO, would accept his fate being tied to a pitching coach, even one as talented as Cooper.

 

I highly, highly, highly doubt that Cooper has the final say on any pitching change. If a manager accepted those terms for the job he's chickens***. Although from what I've seen from Robin that may well be the case.

 

If that is how the Sox do things they got a problem the manager needs 100% authority. Cooper can make suggestions fine and Robin can take all the advice he wants but the final call absolutely has to come down to Robin.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I'm here to tell you guys that neither Guillen, nor Ventura, manage the bullpen. It is Don Freaking Cooper who manages the entire pitching staff. This team always had defined roles up until this year, when it just so happened that everyone was either hurt, or really sucky. The differences you are seeing this year are 100% related to the roster, and nothing to do with Ventura managing a pitching staff.

Which is why I never mention the bullpen when I say Robin is a less than adequate manager. And after reading all the other opinions I will say he's not a bad manager but a poor tactician since its more accurate. There's a ton of things Robin does good as well as poor. After all there isn't going to be any threads about how great a manager is even if you could fine one who makes all the right tactical decisions.

Edited July 30, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[chitownsportsfan]

He hasn't handled any leverage at all this year. Even mop up roles have been sloppy. Until he quits walking guys, that will be the case.

 

His last 10 or so appearances he's been pretty good. 3/1 K/BB ratio. Fun with selective endpoints but as of lately, he's been better.

[southsider2k5]

I honestly have a hard time believing that any manager, who is a very clear #2 on the pecking order on the baseball side of things in an MLB FO, would accept his fate being tied to a pitching coach, even one as talented as Cooper.

 

I highly, highly, highly doubt that Cooper has the final say on any pitching change. If a manager accepted those terms for the job he's chickens***. Although from what I've seen from Robin that may well be the case.

 

If that is how the Sox do things they got a problem the manager needs 100% authority. Cooper can make suggestions fine and Robin can take all the advice he wants but the final call absolutely has to come down to Robin.

 

Recognizing that someone knows something better than you do doesn't emasculate you. It has been clear for a really long time, again all of the way back to Guillen, that the pitching staff belongs to Don Cooper. Both of them have said as much in comments over the years.

[chitownsportsfan]

Recognizing that someone knows something better than you do doesn't emasculate you. It has been clear for a really long time, again all of the way back to Guillen, that the pitching staff belongs to Don Cooper. Both of them have said as much in comments over the years.

 

I'm really curious about this. Like, if Robin wants to go pull Sale after 94 pitches in the 6th (just for example) does Cooper have veto power? That seems absurd to me from an organizational hierarchy but I'm willing to accept that perhaps that is how they do it. It's obviously worked pretty well but it's certainly unorthodox.

[southsider2k5]

His last 10 or so appearances he's been pretty good. 3/1 K/BB ratio. Fun with selective endpoints but as of lately, he's been better.

 

The Sox have zero confidence in him. They have spent the entire year finding pitchers to move ahead of him. Even their waiver wire pick ups have moved ahead of him. Could that change? Sure. But he has to get more consistent in the strike zone. Walking 5.5/9 is never going to fly in a Don Cooper bullpen. The kid has 10 wild pitches this year in 48 IP. That is insanity. That is 4th in the AL. The only guys ahead of him are SPs. You have to drop down to #20 to find another full time reliever on that list.