Realistic 2015 Lineup

[Feeky Magee]

Shocked at the amount of people happy to put Leury Garcia back on the bench. What would he have to hit before the fact he can play a few positions and pinch-run is outweighed?

[Dick Allen]

Shocked at the amount of people happy to put Leury Garcia back on the bench. What would he have to hit before the fact he can play a few positions and pinch-run is outweighed?

The guy is a kid who hardly plays. He hasn't hit, but what metric says you are what you are at his age and experience? There are tools there to be used off the bench. He can play several positions. he has a great arm and can really run. I am sorry, you cannot possibly know a baseball player and what his future holds simply by reading his fangraphs page.

[The Ultimate Champion]

But the Sox have a big, young LH power bat. His name is Adam Dunn.

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Chisoxfn, you see this?

 

This is who you've given otherworldly mod powers to.

 

Just look at that statement right there.

 

Unbelievable.

[Feeky Magee]

They have a future shortstop and his name is Cledius Rondon. We are talking about a guy with potential Simmons defensive upside. Maybe not that good but a tick short. In this new era of low offense, there is an extreme amount of value in a guy like that at a premium defensive position like shortstop. I also think he's capable of learning how to slap out some hits and hit well enough that his bat doesn't completely negate his defensive value and over time, his bat will get better. Good bat speed, great legs, etc.

The interesting thing to me about Cleuluis are his splits. He's a switch-hitter, but way better from the right side.

 

This year he's hitting .281/.373/.417 as a righty and .229/.284/.249 as a lefty.

[witesoxfan]

Sorry, in a goofy mood today, and I like giving TUC grief.

 

I do really like Rondon though.

[The Ultimate Champion]

The guy is a kid who hardly plays. He hasn't hit, but what metric says you are what you are at his age and experience? There are tools there to be used off the bench. He can play several positions. he has a great arm and can really run. I am sorry, you cannot possibly know a baseball player and what his future holds simply by reading his fangraphs page.

I still maintain that Leury is a great addition to a contending baseball team, especially an NL one that likes to put all its PR/defensive utility eggs all in one basket given the need for competent PH and the DH for interleague games. But here on a garbage club he just looks useless.

[GGajewski18]

I still maintain that Leury is a great addition to a contending baseball team, especially an NL one that likes to put all its PR/defensive utility eggs all in one basket given the need for competent PH and the DH for interleague games. But here on a garbage club he just looks useless.

 

Sox aren't garbage. They're average. They're are a bullpen away from probably being in the race for the wild card.

[Feeky Magee]

The guy is a kid who hardly plays. He hasn't hit, but what metric says you are what you are at his age and experience? There are tools there to be used off the bench. He can play several positions. he has a great arm and can really run. I am sorry, you cannot possibly know a baseball player and what his future holds simply by reading his fangraphs page.

He has had over 220 PA and literally hit like a pitcher. He's not progressing, he's been even worse than last year. He's 23 and a half now. He didn't hit in the minors. Why does he get the job, over say, Tyler Saladino?

[witesoxfan]

Sox aren't garbage. They're average. They're are a bullpen away from probably being in the race for the wild card.

 

They are a hell of a lot more than that.

[cabiness42]

Shocked at the amount of people happy to put Leury Garcia back on the bench. What would he have to hit before the fact he can play a few positions and pinch-run is outweighed?

 

An AL team should have a roster spot for a guy with LGarcia's skillset: can play several positions well and can run fast.

 

The problem is that the Sox are misusing him because (1) they have a 3B with a very severe split differential and (2) they are using a roster spot for a backup DH.

 

If you construct the rest of your roster well you can have a guy like LGarcia on it but not need to start him more than 5-10 times a year.

[lasttriptotulsa]

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Chisoxfn, you see this?

 

This is who you've given otherworldly mod powers to.

 

Just look at that statement right there.

 

Unbelievable.

 

Dunn has a .858 OPS vs RHP, has the 2nd highest OBP on the team, and is 2nd in HRs on the team. Just because you do not like somebody does not make them bad. Obviously at $15 million he is overpaid, but I would be perfectly content if the Sox brought him back at a fraction of his current cost. There really are not many options out for there for a LH, middle of the order power bat. He is still a very useful player against RHP and certain favorable LHP matchups. If the Sox keep both Viciedo and Sierra next year, they could re-sign Dunn and get Viciedo and Sierra both in the lineup versus LHP with one as the DH.

[Dick Allen]

He has had over 220 PA and literally hit like a pitcher. He's not progressing, he's been even worse than last year. He's 23 and a half now. He didn't hit in the minors. Why does he get the job, over say, Tyler Saladino?

He is 3 days older than Trace Thompson. He is younger than Marcus Semien. He is a few days older than Matt Davidson.

 

Put those guys in Leury's position and ask yourself how they would be progressing offensively. It's hard to improve when you don't play or play very little.

 

 

As to Saladino, he's 2 years older than Leury, and just had Tommy John.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Dick Allen

[The Ultimate Champion]

Sox aren't garbage. They're average. They're are a bullpen away from probably being in the race for the wild card.

We have holes all over the OF, no real C, no bullpen, 3/5 of our rotation is below average, a gaping hole at DH with no one really in the wings, very little depth in the minors. Yeah, we're garbage.

 

Give us a bullpen & we're good? I say, take away Abreu & Sale and see how many games we win and what happens to interest in White Sox baseball. Our 2nd best offensive player might be a guy on the DL still. We are bad and it's a credit to the coaching (god I have admitting that as a Robin hater) and to some of the guys on this team that we have won as many games as we have. We've had multiple holes all year long no matter what, and you can only blame so much of it on injuries. And the injury factor also applies to the other 29 teams in baseball, s***, we won the WS and we lost Frank and Hermanson for much/most of that year. If injuries are an enormous factor than so is lack of depth.

[lasttriptotulsa]

The interesting thing to me about Cleuluis are his splits. He's a switch-hitter, but way better from the right side.

 

This year he's hitting .281/.373/.417 as a righty and .229/.284/.249 as a lefty.

 

He's naturally right handed so that's not that big of a surprise. If he keeps putting that line up left handed, he may need to think about ditching the switch hitting thing.

[2nd_city_saint787]

They are a hell of a lot more than that.

 

You don't think with a better pen the Sox compete for the WC? He didn't say contending for a title, or even the central, just the WC.

[Feeky Magee]

An AL team should have a roster spot for a guy with LGarcia's skillset: can play several positions well and can run fast.

 

The problem is that the Sox are misusing him because (1) they have a 3B with a very severe split differential and (2) they are using a roster spot for a backup DH.

 

If you construct the rest of your roster well you can have a guy like LGarcia on it but not need to start him more than 5-10 times a year.

There's a roster spot for that skillset if they can hit even a little. Garcia is a .191/.234/.235 hitter over 223 MLB PA. You can't carry that no matter how flexible the guy is. Then you have Saladino, who hit .310/.367/.483 at AAA this year and played every but centre, right and catcher, with good speed. He also crushes lefties. That's a bench piece.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Dunn has a .858 OPS vs RHP, has the 2nd highest OBP on the team, and is 2nd in HRs on the team. Just because you do not like somebody does not make them bad. Obviously at $15 million he is overpaid, but I would be perfectly content if the Sox brought him back at a fraction of his current cost. There really are not many options out for there for a LH, middle of the order power bat. He is still a very useful player against RHP and certain favorable LHP matchups. If the Sox keep both Viciedo and Sierra next year, they could re-sign Dunn and get Viciedo and Sierra both in the lineup versus LHP with one as the DH.

We're not looking to a spot-patch together a platoon situation to cover a weakness, that is what contending teams do. We are rebuilding, that means we need youth and upside.

 

Now let's say we deal Alexei over the offseason and in the deal we pick up a kid at the AA/AAA level maybe even one who has had a cup of coffee in the Majors, and we think he's our guy as soon as midseason 2015 piossibly. If we do that then we'd need someone to plug into that spot for a while, and you could argue for Dunn, but I think that would be stupid. It would be smarter to give those PAs to someone else who could help us in another area, or at least if it is a vet it would be much smarter to give those PA to a vet coming off a bad year/suspension/etc. looking to rebuild value, like a Mike Morse or Nelson Cruz last offseason, or something like that. The lack of lefthandedness really wouldn't matter at that point, we'd be looking for trade value. And at this point you can clearly see Dunn has no trade value. It's been obvious to some of us for a very long time.

[witesoxfan]

You don't think with a better pen the Sox compete for the WC? He didn't say contending for a title, or even the central, just the WC.

 

The Sox are 7 games behind the Tigers and 6.5 behind the Blue Jays. They also have more teams to jump in the Wild Card, so that 6.5 game deficit may as well be 10 games.

 

No, I don't think for a second that they'd be in the Wild Card hunt. Just because there have been some failures doesn't mean that the bullpen wouldn't have failed even if it was "better." It may have just failed in other games. Bullpens are fickle and when you play close games like that, you are going to lose some of them.

 

Frankly, I think a better bullpen gets 2 more wins. Better production out of LF, RF, and 2B would be much more likely to contribute to the team being contenders in either race.

[southsider2k5]

You don't think with a better pen the Sox compete for the WC? He didn't say contending for a title, or even the central, just the WC.

 

I believe that even with a healthy Lindstrom and Jones this year, they are a few games better for sure. That puts them two games out of the WC instead of 5.

[Dick Allen]

You don't think with a better pen the Sox compete for the WC? He didn't say contending for a title, or even the central, just the WC.

Definitely they could have been at least 2 or 3 games better. That's being conservative. That puts them right in the hunt. And leapfrogs a couple of teams.

 

It is amazing the White Sox are near .500 even though: their catcher sucks, their #3, #4, and #5 starters suck, their bullpen sucks, their 2B sucks, their SS needs to be traded, their DH sucks, their back up DH is a mascot, their bench sucks, their LF sucks, their RF sucks, and they are managed by perhaps the worst manager in the history of baseball.

[Dick Allen]

The Sox are 7 games behind the Tigers and 6.5 behind the Blue Jays. They also have more teams to jump in the Wild Card, so that 6.5 game deficit may as well be 10 games.

 

No, I don't think for a second that they'd be in the Wild Card hunt. Just because there have been some failures doesn't mean that the bullpen wouldn't have failed even if it was "better." It may have just failed in other games. Bullpens are fickle and when you play close games like that, you are going to lose some of them.

 

Frankly, I think a better bullpen gets 2 more wins. Better production out of LF, RF, and 2B would be much more likely to contribute to the team being contenders in either race.

By definition, if the bullpen is better, there are fewer failures.

[2nd_city_saint787]

The Sox are 7 games behind the Tigers and 6.5 behind the Blue Jays. They also have more teams to jump in the Wild Card, so that 6.5 game deficit may as well be 10 games.

 

No, I don't think for a second that they'd be in the Wild Card hunt. Just because there have been some failures doesn't mean that the bullpen wouldn't have failed even if it was "better." It may have just failed in other games. Bullpens are fickle and when you play close games like that, you are going to lose some of them.

 

Frankly, I think a better bullpen gets 2 more wins. Better production out of LF, RF, and 2B would be much more likely to contribute to the team being contenders in either race.

 

I'm not saying if they add some bullpen guys right now they would compete. I'm saying if they had a better pen all year they more than likely wouldn't be 6.5 back from the WC. I think you could realistically say they could be 3.5 back if not closer, which to me is contending for the WC.

[The Ultimate Champion]

The Sox are 7 games behind the Tigers and 6.5 behind the Blue Jays. They also have more teams to jump in the Wild Card, so that 6.5 game deficit may as well be 10 games.

 

No, I don't think for a second that they'd be in the Wild Card hunt. Just because there have been some failures doesn't mean that the bullpen wouldn't have failed even if it was "better." It may have just failed in other games. Bullpens are fickle and when you play close games like that, you are going to lose some of them.

 

Frankly, I think a better bullpen gets 2 more wins. Better production out of LF, RF, and 2B would be much more likely to contribute to the team being contenders in either race.

Being "in" the wild card hunt is a lot more than games back anyway. It's also a depth thing, a "horses" thing, etc. You need to be good enough and depp enough to win games all throughout August and September to really be "in" it. We have way too many holes to say we are "in" any race that goes anywhere but the bottom. But hey that's fine right now, I'd love the chance at another top-10 draft pick as well as the ability to sign a Type A FA giving up only a second round pick. Claiming order during the waiver period is a nice little bonus too, because in FA teams need to open up roster spots to sign new players, and there are always some useful types that get waived because of that.

[Feeky Magee]

He is 3 days older than Trace Thompson. He is younger than Marcus Semien. He is a few days older than Matt Davidson.

 

Put those guys in Leury's position and ask yourself how they would be progressing offensively. It's hard to improve when you don't play or play very little.

 

 

As to Saladino, he's 2 years older than Leury, and just had Tommy John.

They very well might struggle, but there's that and there's producing what Leury has at the plate. Anyway, it sounds like that with both our arguments he's better off in the minors. You think he's in a situation where it's really difficult for him to improve, I think he's a liability at the major league level and for any slight chance of him making it should be in the minors, so don't we think the same thing?

 

And Saladino should be back in around mid-April.

[lasttriptotulsa]

We're not looking to a spot-patch together a platoon situation to cover a weakness, that is what contending teams do. We are rebuilding, that means we need youth and upside.

 

Now let's say we deal Alexei over the offseason and in the deal we pick up a kid at the AA/AAA level maybe even one who has had a cup of coffee in the Majors, and we think he's our guy as soon as midseason 2015 piossibly. If we do that then we'd need someone to plug into that spot for a while, and you could argue for Dunn, but I think that would be stupid. It would be smarter to give those PAs to someone else who could help us in another area, or at least if it is a vet it would be much smarter to give those PA to a vet coming off a bad year/suspension/etc. looking to rebuild value, like a Mike Morse or Nelson Cruz last offseason, or something like that. The lack of lefthandedness really wouldn't matter at that point, we'd be looking for trade value. And at this point you can clearly see Dunn has no trade value. It's been obvious to some of us for a very long time.

 

That pretty much describes Adam Dunn perfectly. If Dunn had a smaller contract this year, he would have been gone at the trade deadline. He will have zero problem finding a job.

 

With one or two moves, the Sox could easily contend this year. Realistically we could've contended this year had it not been for losing our starting RF, closer, 2nd option as closer and others to various DL stints.