Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[VAfan]

After today, there can no longer be any pretense that the White Sox have a bullpen.

 

Here's who's useful:

Jake Petricka. 2.09 ERA

Zach Putnam. 2.35 ERA. Now on the DL.

 

Here's who's mediocre, but looks great compared to the alternatives.

Daniel Webb. 3.60 ERA

Matt Lindstrom. 3.32 ERA. Now on minor league rehab assignment.

 

Here's who's less than useful; he lost today's game, and has blown 5 saves.

Javy Guerra. 3.45 ERA

 

Here's what's like pouring gasoline on a fire:

Ronald Bellisario. 6.23 ERA. 8 losses. 4 blown saves.

Andre Rienzo. 6.11 ERA. Horrible since his 4-0 start to the season.

Erik Surkamp. 7.84 ERA. Now worse than Scott Downs and his 6.01 ERA, and Donnie Veal's 7.50 ERA.

Taylor Thompson. 10.13 ERA. Already sent down.

 

How could the Sox expect this group of arms to form a viable major league bullpen? If the Sox had a decent bullpen, they should be in second place in the AL Central, with a pretty good shot at making the playoffs. If they had a great bullpen, they could be battling the Tigers for first place. It's not hard to see 7-8 games going the Sox' way with a better bullpen this season.

 

I'm not sure what the solution was. I'm not really calling into question the Reed trade. Certainly, Nate Jones' loss has hurt. The Scott Downs signing was horrible. The Bellisario signing is looking worse every day. Javy Guerra was an attempt at shoring up a bad situation, but it hasn't worked out very well. Rienzo failed as a starter after a quick start, and looks worse out of the bullpen.

 

I put some of the fault at Robin Ventura's feet, because I feel he's poorly managed even the limited resources he's had. But Rick Hahn needs to take the larger share of the blame, as he hasn't given the team more than 2-3 viable relievers, one of whom is now on the DL (Putnam).

 

There's a lengthy thread on here about the 2015 lineup. But Rick Hahn's first job ought to be to fix the bullpen.

[2nd_city_saint787]

I've made my opinion known numerous times on here....No....Dude doesn't have a crystal ball.

[Chicago White Sox]

You always worry about the bullpen last. Yes, it needs to be addressed to some extent this offseason, but we also have bigger fish to fry if we want to be serious contenders.

[Vance Law]

Nope.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Since you're using ERA here...

 

Last 2 years...

 

Belly-3.97/2.54

Downs- 2.49/3.15

 

 

For those fancy gentlemen here

 

FIP

 

Belly-3.64/3.09

Downs-3.09/3.66

 

 

If those guys pitch up to those results and Jones/Lindstrom stay healthy we aren't even having this convo.

 

s*** happens though. Jones went down which messed up all the roles, then Lindstrom went down and even further f***ed up everyones

roles.

 

The intentions were good. The results were bad.

Edited August 4, 2014 by scs787

[sin city sox fan]

Since you're using ERA here...

 

Last 2 years...

 

Belly-3.97/2.54

Downs- 2.49/3.15

 

 

For those fancy gentlemen here

 

FIP

 

Belly-3.64/3.09

Downs-3.09/3.66

 

 

If those guys pitch up to those results and Jones/Lindstrom stay healthy we aren't even having this convo.

 

s*** happens though. Jones went down which messed up all the roles, then Lindstrom went down and even further f***ed up everyones

roles.

 

The intentions were good. The results were bad.

 

 

The career stats back up my belief that our bullpen sucks because of Robin's complete ignorance in using it and lack of defining roles for anyone. He's ccmpletely destroyed the morale and confidence of all our relievers and it would make no difference who was in our pen.

 

With as many things as he's done to damage this team and ruin our playoff chances, I don't see how we can continue to keep him in the position. The time has come for the organization to make a change and there's no need to wait even one day more.

 

Fire Robin now!

[GGajewski18]

Maybe Dombrowski should be questioned by Tigers fans because their bullpen has cost them the last 3 playoffs....

[greg775]

Yes it is his fault, completely. You don't trade a suitable reliever in Reed when you have NOTHING left over. It's like he wanted to lose 99 games again.

This bullpen on paper was pathetic. I don't see why GM's get a free pass. OK. He projected Nate to be the answer. And Lindstrom and Downs were supposed to be good. And Bella serviceable.

Nate is hurt which isn't the GM's fault, but I'm not convinced Nate is to be great anyway.

Lindstrom was OK til he got hurt (though I didn't like him much) and Downs was miserable. Bella is horrific. I need not mention all of the horrific pieces of this bullpen.

 

This is on the GM. The team like you said would be contending with a decent bullpen. I can't forgive him for trading a closer for some guy sucking in AAA.

Very very bad job by Hahn and is a negative on his resume. Yes, he's made some great moves as well.

 

But this is inexcusable and on him. There are bad bullpens, but this one is worthy of last place which is still where the Sox could wind up. Team has avoided the collapse so far. Do we have the usual 10-game September road trip coming up where a 1-9 is possible again?

Edited August 4, 2014 by greg775

[2nd_city_saint787]

The career stats back up my belief that our bullpen sucks because of Robin's complete ignorance in using it and lack of defining roles for anyone. He's ccmpletely destroyed the morale and confidence of all our relievers and it would make no difference who was in our pen.

 

With as many things as he's done to damage this team and ruin our playoff chances, I don't see how we can continue to keep him in the position. The time has come for the organization to make a change and there's no need to wait even one day more.

 

Fire Robin now!

 

Lol stop it. The problem IS the fact that the defined roles you speak of have gotten blown up because of injury. Nate Jones, according to Hahn himself, was going to be the closer this year. He got hurt. So now all those defined roles got changed. Matt Lingstrom, who is a quality SU man was forced into the closers role. Then he got injured and once again those defined roles changed again. Belisario was put into the defined closer role and he fell flatt on his face so again, roles were forced to change.

 

Saying he "completely destroyed the confidence of these grown ass men is ridiculous.

 

Yes it is his fault, completely. You don't trade a suitable reliever in Reed when you have NOTHING left over. It's like he wanted to lose 99 games again.

This bullpen on paper was pathetic. I don't see why GM's get a free pass. OK. He projected Nate to be the answer. And Lindstrom and Downs were supposed to be good. And Bella serviceable.

Nate is hurt which isn't the GM's fault, but I'm not convinced Nate is to be great anyway.

Lindstrom was OK til he got hurt (though I didn't like him much) and Downs was miserable. Bella is horrific. I need not mention all of the horrific pieces of this bullpen.

 

This is on the GM. The team like you said would be contending with a decent bullpen. I can't forgive him for trading a closer for some guy sucking in AAA.

Very very bad job by Hahn and is a negative on his resume. Yes, he's made some great moves as well.

 

But this is inexcusable and on him. There are bad bullpens, but this one is worthy of last place which is still where the Sox could wind up. Team has avoided the collapse so far. Do we have the usual 10-game September road trip coming up where a 1-9 is possible again?

 

Again this is ridiculous.

 

Did you read my post where I pointed out that Belly and Downs have actually been fairly good the last 2 years? Nate Jones, whether you like it or not is a very good bullpen arm and is every bit as good as Addison Reed. Matt Lindstrom has been a well above average set up man for years now. Petricka and Webb came up last year and really solidified a spot in the pen as well.

 

That's 6 guys on paper that should have been better than average pieces for this bullpen. Esp. when you consider this is a rebuilding year that bullpen going into this year should have been more than serviceable and Hahn appeared to have done a good job.

 

 

[Vance Law]

The career stats back up my belief that our bullpen sucks because of Robin's complete ignorance in using it and lack of defining roles for anyone.

 

The role for each one of them is to get the hitter out instead of not get the hitter out. Always. Every pitcher.

[JoshPR]

Oh brother.......

[JamesDean]

Absolutely! There should be no doubt that Rick Hahn has somewhat decimated this pitching staff, and those who deny this can only offer lame excuses as their reasons. We're all familiar with the names and pedigrees of those who served the Sox a little more than one year ago. Peavy (Cy Young, 3x AS), Santiago, All-Star relievers Thornton and Crain, and a competent and effective closer in Reed.

 

I understand the 'salary dump', and I don't disagree with it (though I do have questions and doubts about the return they received). What I do disagree with is the poor attempt to replace what was given away. We're familiar with those names as well, Belsario, Putnam, and Downs were all signed as free agents. The Scott Downs travesty, while it pales in comparison to the 3rd base fiasco, is quite telling. On Jan. 2, 2014, Downs was signed to a 2yr/$8M contract to fill the role vacated by the Thornton trade, even while he was one-year older, and statistically less effective. Meanwhile, Thornton signed his new contract for less money, 2yr/$7M with the Yankees about one week later. Is it still considered a 'salary dump' if the player that you've dumped signs for less money than what he'd made the prior season? Of course, Downs then gets dumped, but we should give credit to St. Rick for including a buyout clause that relieves them of paying the full contract.

 

If you view Downs as taking Thornton's spot, both on the roster and in payroll, and Belasario takes Crain's spot, then what happened with the rest of the money saved from the salary dump of 2013? Peavy and Rios combined were slated to make $27M, yet none of this money was spent to bolster the pitching staff. With two starters traded (plus one other rotation spot questionable) and the loss of two set-up men and your closer, the effort to replace these players never happened, despite having the money to do so. Rick Hahn chose to put this money into Jerry's pocket, and now the 2014 White Sox are paying for that decision. Ironically, as other posters have mentioned, a strong bullpen would have the Sox in contention in the Central Division/Wild Card which would likely lead to larger attendances and possibly playoff revenue.

 

 

[hogan873]

Yes it is his fault, completely. You don't trade a suitable reliever in Reed when you have NOTHING left over. It's like he wanted to lose 99 games again.

This bullpen on paper was pathetic. I don't see why GM's get a free pass. OK. He projected Nate to be the answer. And Lindstrom and Downs were supposed to be good. And Bella serviceable.

Nate is hurt which isn't the GM's fault, but I'm not convinced Nate is to be great anyway.

Lindstrom was OK til he got hurt (though I didn't like him much) and Downs was miserable. Bella is horrific. I need not mention all of the horrific pieces of this bullpen.

 

This is on the GM. The team like you said would be contending with a decent bullpen. I can't forgive him for trading a closer for some guy sucking in AAA.

Very very bad job by Hahn and is a negative on his resume. Yes, he's made some great moves as well.

 

But this is inexcusable and on him. There are bad bullpens, but this one is worthy of last place which is still where the Sox could wind up. Team has avoided the collapse so far. Do we have the usual 10-game September road trip coming up where a 1-9 is possible again?

There is so much wrong with this post it's difficult to know where to start. First of all, Reed was traded for a potential future third baseman for years to come. Just because Davidson is not tearing it up in AAA doesn't mean he won't be the guy they're hoping he will be. And the Reed trade didn't leave "nothing". You say yourself that Jones, Lindstrom, Downs, and Belisario were all projected to be decent enough. How is that Hahn's fault that Jones and Lindstrom got hurt and Downs and Belisario suck? Other posters have pointed out that both of those guys had good seasons lately. And getting back to your constant talk about the Reed situation, a good closer does not a bullpen make. Even if the Sox had a true closer (and Reed isn't exactly great, by the way), it doesn't matter when the rest of the bullpen just goes out there and throws BP stuff.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Absolutely! There should be no doubt that Rick Hahn has somewhat decimated this pitching staff, and those who deny this can only offer lame excuses as their reasons. We're all familiar with the names and pedigrees of those who served the Sox a little more than one year ago. Peavy (Cy Young, 3x AS), Santiago, All-Star relievers Thornton and Crain, and a competent and effective closer in Reed.

 

I understand the 'salary dump', and I don't disagree with it (though I do have questions and doubts about the return they received). What I do disagree with is the poor attempt to replace what was given away. We're familiar with those names as well, Belsario, Putnam, and Downs were all signed as free agents. The Scott Downs travesty, while it pales in comparison to the 3rd base fiasco, is quite telling. On Jan. 2, 2014, Downs was signed to a 2yr/$8M contract to fill the role vacated by the Thornton trade, even while he was one-year older, and statistically less effective. Meanwhile, Thornton signed his new contract for less money, 2yr/$7M with the Yankees about one week later. Is it still considered a 'salary dump' if the player that you've dumped signs for less money than what he'd made the prior season? Of course, Downs then gets dumped, but we should give credit to St. Rick for including a buyout clause that relieves them of paying the full contract.

 

If you view Downs as taking Thornton's spot, both on the roster and in payroll, and Belasario takes Crain's spot, then what happened with the rest of the money saved from the salary dump of 2013? Peavy and Rios combined were slated to make $27M, yet none of this money was spent to bolster the pitching staff. With two starters traded (plus one other rotation spot questionable) and the loss of two set-up men and your closer, the effort to replace these players never happened, despite having the money to do so. Rick Hahn chose to put this money into Jerry's pocket, and now the 2014 White Sox are paying for that decision. Ironically, as other posters have mentioned, a strong bullpen would have the Sox in contention in the Central Division/Wild Card which would likely lead to larger attendances and possibly playoff revenue.

Welcome to Soxtalk and quality post. I won't argue your points, they make sense. And perhaps the bigger argument is if the Sox had the money to offer Tanaka a large contract then why didn't they spend more to make the team as a whole better ? Since the Sox signed Abreu they had to believe he was going to be good. I really do think and I said it in April and I remember fathom agreeing with me that Sox management didn't think they could compete this year after they didn't sign Tanaka. But if they had spread the Tanaka money around it's possible they could have.

 

But you all also have to keep in mind Hahn has a long term goal of being in contention every year not just one year then fail fail fail. He knows the Sox have never made the playoffs 2 straight years and his goal is to remedy that. All the arguments about the crappy pen is really just one year of an expected rebuild. Does it suck we could possibly have contended this year and the pen sucks ? Of course . Could they have spent more money ? Definitely. But Hahn wants the right pieces for a young core. When he feels he has enough core pieces then he will make more of an effort to build around them. This wasn't the year for that as much as I hate seeing Abreu and Sale's performances wasted. Seems as if we added to the core with Abreu, Eaton and the surprise of Gillaspie .Losing Avi and Erik Johnson not stepping up hurt a bunch for evaluation purposes but I'd say if the goal was to build a younger stronger core to compete for years ahead , that this year has been a success. Some failures of young players was to be expected but realistically the bullpen failure is not a huge deal in the master plan. Toss into the mix Rodon as a big POTENTIAL core piece.

 

The bigger failure is potential trade pieces all failing and I suppose you can add some bullpen members to that because now adding more good young core pieces is much more difficult. Now Hahn has to spend money because another year wasted trying to add guys with the idea of flipping them is another year where the young core ages.

Edited August 4, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Eminor3rd]

From the standpoint of roster construction: when you acquire players, you are acquiring probabilities. That is, each player comes with a range of potential outcomes for each appearance and, by extension, each season. A GM has to make an assessment about what the most likely outcome is for each player he has, weigh the chances of a substantially better or worse outcome, and decide whether or not he is comfortable with said probability holding down the role he has in mind.

 

What we're witnessing is close to the worst possible outcome of this bullpen. Just one pitcher is pitching near what was probably projected as an expected performance. The top two pieces were injured for nearly the entire season, two more pieces pitching close to as poorly as they could realistically be expected to pitch, and the rest pitching below expectations to the point that should have been realistically expected. To me, it doesn't look like there were any surefire signs that these guys were to going to pitch worse than normally (injury, decline), so I chalk this up to bad luck from Hahn's point of view. I don't think there's anything wrong with the process, I think it was just a rough year. I'd expect him to approach building next year's bullpen in a similar fashion, and I'd be pretty happy with him doing so. I certainly wouldn't want him to panic and start paying steeply for Proven Closers™ who have shown to be, at best, BARELY more reliable than a random live arm in terms of sustained effectiveness over several years.

[LittleHurt05]

Rick Hahn had a plan for the bullpen and that's what needs to be looked at:

 

Closer - Faced 4 batters then got seriously injured. Twice.

RH Set-up man - Was moved into the closer role, struggled early than settled down, then was also seriously injured, has pitched a total of 19 innings

LH Set-up man - Veteran FA signing who had his worst season in 10 years, then was released

 

There's not much Hahn could have done about the injuries, but I guess you can blame him for Downs, as a bad FA signing usually goes against the GM, but I don't think anyone expected him to be that bad.

 

That's the thing people have to remember though, guys like Belisario & Petricka weren't even expected to pitch the 8th inning, let alone the 9th.

[witesoxfan]

The career stats back up my belief that our bullpen sucks because of Robin's complete ignorance in using it and lack of defining roles for anyone. He's ccmpletely destroyed the morale and confidence of all our relievers and it would make no difference who was in our pen.

 

With as many things as he's done to damage this team and ruin our playoff chances, I don't see how we can continue to keep him in the position. The time has come for the organization to make a change and there's no need to wait even one day more.

 

Fire Robin now!

 

But if Ozzie Guillen had been the one calling for those guys out of the bullpen, everything would have worked out.

 

[GreatScott82]

The injuries of Jones and Lindstrom really put the organization in a tough spot. I thought what Hahn did last winter, trading Reed and Santiago away for young position players was a very smart move. We took an area of strength in 2013 and addressed an area of great weakness, which at the time was the offense. I don't think any of us feel bad about that Santiago for Eaton trade now do we? And I am still hopeful that Davidson will turn things around. The fact of the matter is, the organization does have a solid reputation of developing pitchers out of the bullpen, however; this year it has been a challenge to do that. I do like the progress made by Petricka and Putnam. In a year of growth, I'd say to have the bullpen the only real concern for 2015 is a success.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

From the standpoint of roster construction: when you acquire players, you are acquiring probabilities. That is, each player comes with a range of potential outcomes for each appearance and, by extension, each season. A GM has to make an assessment about what the most likely outcome is for each player he has, weigh the chances of a substantially better or worse outcome, and decide whether or not he is comfortable with said probability holding down the role he has in mind.

 

What we're witnessing is close to the worst possible outcome of this bullpen. Just one pitcher is pitching near what was probably projected as an expected performance. The top two pieces were injured for nearly the entire season, two more pieces pitching close to as poorly as they could realistically be expected to pitch, and the rest pitching below expectations to the point that should have been realistically expected. To me, it doesn't look like there were any surefire signs that these guys were to going to pitch worse than normally (injury, decline), so I chalk this up to bad luck from Hahn's point of view. I don't think there's anything wrong with the process, I think it was just a rough year. I'd expect him to approach building next year's bullpen in a similar fashion, and I'd be pretty happy with him doing so. I certainly wouldn't want him to panic and start paying steeply for Proven Closers™ who have shown to be, at best, BARELY more reliable than a random live arm in terms of sustained effectiveness over several years.

Exactly. The goal was and will continue to be adding to the core for sustained years of contention. Bullpen pieces usually can't be counted on to be a core piece unless you have a lock down closer like Mariano Rivera, Kimbrel and Street. As important as a good bullpen is its usually a year to year crap shoot. This year the Sox rolled snake-eyes. Adding core pieces Hahn did pretty good. Bargain basement shopping and trade candidates developing for flipping , not so good. Probably needed 2 of those 3 to compete this year or make a big advance in the master plan. So overall a lot of improvement from last year but not enough to get optimistic about next year unless the Sox add free agents who are always too old to be considered core pieces or starts using his better minor leaguers in trades. Remember Abreu is the oldest core piece so the window revolves around him and the health of all the core pieces.

[GreatScott82]

Exactly. The goal was and will continue to be adding to the core for sustained years of contention. Bullpen pieces usually can't be counted on to be a core piece unless you have a lock down closer like Mariano Rivera, Kimbrel and Street. As important as a good bullpen is its usually a year to year crap shoot. This year the Sox rolled snake-eyes. Adding core pieces Hahn did pretty good. Bargain basement shopping and trade candidates developing for flipping , not so good. Probably needed 2 of those 3 to compete this year or make a big advance in the master plan. So overall a lot of improvement from last year but not enough to get optimistic about next year unless the Sox add free agents who are always too old to be considered core pieces or starts using his better minor leaguers in trades. Remember Abreu is the oldest core piece so the window revolves around him and the health of all the core pieces.

Agreed. The good news for Abreu is we rely on his bat and not his legs. I say we have him for at least a solid ten years. The current core is:

Eaton CF

Garcia RF

Abreu 1B

Gillepsie 3B

Sale SP

Quintana SP

 

Knocking at the door:

Micah Johnson 2B

Carlos Rodon SP

 

Hahn has done a good job putting together that new core, but there is a lot of work to do!

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Since you're using ERA here...

 

Last 2 years...

 

Belly-3.97/2.54

Downs- 2.49/3.15

 

 

For those fancy gentlemen here

 

FIP

 

Belly-3.64/3.09

Downs-3.09/3.66

 

 

If those guys pitch up to those results and Jones/Lindstrom stay healthy we aren't even having this convo.

 

s*** happens though. Jones went down which messed up all the roles, then Lindstrom went down and even further f***ed up everyones

roles.

 

The intentions were good. The results were bad.

 

 

Too bad this won't end things... But the villagers with pitchforks want answers

[southsider2k5]

The career stats back up my belief that our bullpen sucks because of Robin's complete ignorance in using it and lack of defining roles for anyone. He's ccmpletely destroyed the morale and confidence of all our relievers and it would make no difference who was in our pen.

 

With as many things as he's done to damage this team and ruin our playoff chances, I don't see how we can continue to keep him in the position. The time has come for the organization to make a change and there's no need to wait even one day more.

 

Fire Robin now!

 

This is the kind of posts that Cub fans would copy and paste to show how insane Sox fans are.

[southsider2k5]

From the standpoint of roster construction: when you acquire players, you are acquiring probabilities. That is, each player comes with a range of potential outcomes for each appearance and, by extension, each season. A GM has to make an assessment about what the most likely outcome is for each player he has, weigh the chances of a substantially better or worse outcome, and decide whether or not he is comfortable with said probability holding down the role he has in mind.

 

What we're witnessing is close to the worst possible outcome of this bullpen. Just one pitcher is pitching near what was probably projected as an expected performance. The top two pieces were injured for nearly the entire season, two more pieces pitching close to as poorly as they could realistically be expected to pitch, and the rest pitching below expectations to the point that should have been realistically expected. To me, it doesn't look like there were any surefire signs that these guys were to going to pitch worse than normally (injury, decline), so I chalk this up to bad luck from Hahn's point of view. I don't think there's anything wrong with the process, I think it was just a rough year. I'd expect him to approach building next year's bullpen in a similar fashion, and I'd be pretty happy with him doing so. I certainly wouldn't want him to panic and start paying steeply for Proven Closers™ who have shown to be, at best, BARELY more reliable than a random live arm in terms of sustained effectiveness over several years.

 

 

Also a very good post.

[fathom]

I'll confess, I thought the pen was the strongest part of the roster coming into the season.

[witesoxfan]

I'll confess, I thought the pen was the strongest part of the roster coming into the season.

 

I thought it looked really good too, and due to plain bad luck, it's been the worst. Frankly, I'm not sure what they could have done differently.