Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[LittleHurt05]

Yes. I understand injuries can set you back, but it's Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom.

 

I will say, since he's been injured, Matt Lindstrom has become a lot better pitcher without even throwing a pitch than he was when he went down.

 

It's not like Addison Reed is any better than Jones and Lindstrom. He's given up more career homers than Lindstrom in less than half as many innings. That's not a positive trait for a closer.

[elrockinMT]

I think I remember reading in the off season that bullpens are easy to put together and that the back end of the bullpen isn't a priority because teams can just plug pitchers in there.

 

 

I think that story was written before Larussa changed things. Like the ole Hawkeroo said---it's all about the bullpen now. I am hoping Coop can fix em. Oh, wait a minute...

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

That's why, if you think you have a shot at winning, you don't trade Addison Reed for Josh Fields Jr.

 

People had no problem and still don't with the Sox getting rid of him. Yet now the bullpen sucks because Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom, yes the same Matt Lindstrom some where doing cartwheels about when they found out he was hurt and would no longer be closing, aren't there.

 

If Jones and Lindstrom were both healthy, and really, I don't know how in the world anyone can assume a pitching staff won't suffer numerous injuries, the Sox bullpen would still suck. Hahn knew it in spring training, but it was too late.

You know DA, you get on a lot of people about 2nd guessing Robin Ventura yet here you are 2nd guessing Hahn and the people who are defending Hahn . All of a sudden you think Hahn should've treated this year like a contending year. So I hope you can make it clear for me what you think Hahn should have done from the beginning. Should he treat every year as a contending year spend a lot of money , keep the payroll high, give out huge long term contracts to just a few individuals 4? 5? 6 OR MORE ? Try to establish a core of young players, build slowly ? Attempt to do both at the same time? At least be consistent in your devil's advocates posts or trolling as some prefer to call it.

Edited August 4, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

It's not like Addison Reed is any better than Jones and Lindstrom. He's given up more career homers than Lindstrom in less than half as many innings. That's not a positive trait for a closer.

 

What is a positive trait is converting your saves. Lindstrom was 6 for 9 when he went down. That's not a percentage that keeps your team in wild card contention.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

You know DA, you get on a lot of people about 2nd guessing Robin Ventura yet here you are 2nd guessing Hahn and the people who are defending Hahn . All of a sudden you think Hahn should've treated this year like a contending year. So I hope you can make it clear for me what you think Hahn should have done from the beginning. Should he treat every year as a contending year spend a lot of money , keep the payroll high, give out huge long term contracts to just a few individuals 4? 5? 6 OR MORE ? Try to establish a core of young players, build slowly ? Attempt to do both at the same time? At least be consistent in your devil's advocates posts or trolling as some prefer to call it.

Addison Reed makes 538k this year. About 1/6th what they pay Beli and 1/8 what they paid Downs. I thought that trade was dumb from the start. It's documented.

 

I get on people for getting on Ventura after the fact. Anyone who really thinks Addison Reed doesn't help this team is just fooling themselves, just like they are fooling themselves if they think Matt Davidson is going to develop into a middle of the order major league bat.

[VAfan]

I don't get the "it's a rebuilding year, therefore it's okay to trot out a horrible pen" argument at all.

 

The Sox don't do "rebuilding." At least they never did under Kenny Williams. Granted, Hahn changed out much of the core of the team, but it wasn't with the idea that they'd still suck. No one can convince me that that was ever even thought of among the Sox brass.

 

The problem was, he completely undervalued the importance of a good bullpen.

 

Here are the sorted stats for team bullpens for 2014. http://tinyurl.com/my2e7bh

 

This gives a pretty good idea of the value of a good pen. The Sox pen has lost 22 games, tops in the majors. Minnesota and KC are near the bottom, with 12 pen losses. The Tigers pen has lost 14 games. Cleveland's pen has lost 15 games.

 

Look at the difference between save opportunities and saves. For the Sox it's 17 games (25 saves in 42 chances). Cleveland is next worse at 13, with Minnesota at 11, and Detroit and KC at 10.

 

The Tigers bullpen ERA is actually worse than the Sox. But Minnesota and KC are both more than a run better than the Sox. Cleveland has the best bullpen ERA in the AL Central, and their relievers are 25-15.

 

So, swap out the Sox bullpen for the ones in Cleveland, KC, or Minnesota, and the Sox are vying with the Tigers for the AL Central lead. It's not because those teams have spent a lot more money on their pen, or money that would be beyond the White Sox' resources. They've just done a much better job filling those holes.

[greg775]

I'm going to say this. We entered this season with what I thought was a bad bullpen. We had no closer, however, I thought Nate could step into that role. We added some scrap heap vet arms and obviously had Lindstrom who I put as a serviceable reliever and probably one of the worst closers on any opening day roster. The two of them got hurt, which was surprising, but as a whole, this pen had very little talent, and that is on Hahn. With a league average pen, we are, conservatively 2-3 games out of the wild card. However, we don't have that and never did, so while injuries factored in, I also think the pen was devoid with talent and that was from the start.

 

The bright side is, bullpens, can be remade pretty quickly and I am sure that will be an area Hahn targets. They also can be great places to bring up guys internally and hopefully Petricka and Webb continue to develop and that gives us a couple, quality, cost controlled relievers.

 

Good post. It acknowledges Hahn's putting together a horrific bullpen, but also has a possible solution at the end.

Dick Allen is right, though. Lindstrom has become a lot better reliever to people now that he's been out of sight a long time. I personally think he's just another body and probably would be hated by all by now had he kept pitching.

We'll never know about Nate Jones. I never liked him; a lot of you and probably Hahn thought he'd be a dynamite closer.

[2nd_city_saint787]

What is a positive trait is converting your saves. Lindstrom was 6 for 9 when he went down. That's not a percentage that keeps your team in wild card contention.

 

In 2 of those blown saves he didn't even give up an ER.

 

One of those being one of the oddest decisions by RV has made... (Hate to feed the RV haters but...)

 

9th inning Maikel Cleto pitching Sox up 1...

Jor Danks in right field.

D Pedroia walked.

D Pedroia stole second.

X Bogaerts walked.

M Lindstrom relieved M Cleto.

D Ortiz flied out to left.

J Gomes reached on infield single to third, D Pedroia to third, X Bogaerts to second.

G Sizemore hit sacrifice fly to left, D Pedroia scored.

X Bogaerts to third, J Gomes to second on wild pitch by M Lindstrom.

A Pierzynski grounded out to third.

 

 

 

[The Ginger Kid]

I thought you'd already made the point that it was all Robin's fault. I'm confused.

[LittleHurt05]

What is a positive trait is converting your saves. Lindstrom was 6 for 9 when he went down. That's not a percentage that keeps your team in wild card contention.

 

2 of those 3 blown saves he gave up zero earned runs. He was pitching better before his freak injury, I'd bet his save percentage would be higher than 66%. Reed just had a nice two week stretch of 3 saves in 6 opportunities. He would have lost his job if his team wasn't worse than the White Sox and in need of justification for such a dumb trade.

[Dick Allen]

Good post. It acknowledges Hahn's putting together a horrific bullpen, but also has a possible solution at the end.

Dick Allen is right, though. Lindstrom has become a lot better reliever to people now that he's been out of sight a long time. I personally think he's just another body and probably would be hated by all by now had he kept pitching.

We'll never know about Nate Jones. I never liked him; a lot of you and probably Hahn thought he'd be a dynamite closer.

If you go back to the thread where Lindstrom was DL'd , I didn't read one post that hinted the poster thought it was much of a blow to the bullpen, and that was after Nate Jones was out. It ranged from the bullpen will be better off, to someone saying it could cost the Sox a Brandon Jacobs-like prospect at the deadline, to mentioning several of the other relievers as interchangable parts.

 

I have always liked Nate Jones. But there is another guy who has been ripped on this board before, and suddenly he is an irreplaceable part of the bullpen.

 

 

[hogan873]

Good post. It acknowledges Hahn's putting together a horrific bullpen, but also has a possible solution at the end.

Dick Allen is right, though. Lindstrom has become a lot better reliever to people now that he's been out of sight a long time. I personally think he's just another body and probably would be hated by all by now had he kept pitching.

We'll never know about Nate Jones. I never liked him; a lot of you and probably Hahn thought he'd be a dynamite closer.

I'm not sure anyone here thought that Jones would be a dynamite closer. I think the overall consensus was that he has the stuff to be closer, and he was the best option going into the season. Now we won't know for quite a while...maybe ever.

[VAfan]

Another point.

 

To those who think Hahn didn't focus on the pen because we were "rebuilding" but he'll fix it next year, because it's easy to fix, doesn't that make out Hahn as a total moron?

 

I mean, if it's easy to fix the pen in a year, then why didn't Hahn do it this year?

 

My opinion is that Hahn tried to fix the pen, but did a very bad job of it, starting with the fact the team had no real closer once it traded Reed. I'm not saying the Reed trade was ill conceived on its own. I would say without a backup plan for a pen without Reed, it was extremely risky, and the risk Hahn took blew up in his face.

 

Hahn did the same thing with the starting rotation, but on that score, he's been much more fortunate. Erik Johnson and Felipe Paulino blew up, but the Sox have gotten by with wire-waiver claim Hector Noesi and 29-year-old rookie Scott Carroll. Plus, John Danks has pitched much better than might have been expected.

[witesoxfan]

Another point.

 

To those who think Hahn didn't focus on the pen because we were "rebuilding" but he'll fix it next year, because it's easy to fix, doesn't that make out Hahn as a total moron?

 

I mean, if it's easy to fix the pen in a year, then why didn't Hahn do it this year?

 

My opinion is that Hahn tried to fix the pen, but did a very bad job of it, starting with the fact the team had no real closer once it traded Reed. I'm not saying the Reed trade was ill conceived on its own. I would say without a backup plan for a pen without Reed, it was extremely risky, and the risk Hahn took blew up in his face.

 

Hahn did the same thing with the starting rotation, but on that score, he's been much more fortunate. Erik Johnson and Felipe Paulino blew up, but the Sox have gotten by with wire-waiver claim Hector Noesi and 29-year-old rookie Scott Carroll. Plus, John Danks has pitched much better than might have been expected.

 

Really? He's not tied the Sox up to any long-term contracts in the bullpen. You can typically fix a pen pretty quickly if you throw a lot of money at it. There's not a lot of room there for return on investment. Instead, you bring in a lot of guys long on talent and short on results and see if you can fix them, so to speak. I'm not upset at the results the Sox have gotten out of Guerra, Putnam, Petricka, nor Webb. I think there's still talent in Belisario's arm, but I won't be upset if he's no longer with the club after the season.

 

If you can find good, cheap, alternatives, it allows you to spend money on guys like Jose Abreu. Tell me, would you rather the Sox pay Jose Abreu $11 mill this year or Rafael Soriano $14 mill?

 

It's not as easy as Rick Hahn waving a magic wand, but to some degree, it is as easy as Jerry Reinsdorf waving his magic wand.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Another point.

 

To those who think Hahn didn't focus on the pen because we were "rebuilding" but he'll fix it next year, because it's easy to fix, doesn't that make out Hahn as a total moron?

 

I mean, if it's easy to fix the pen in a year, then why didn't Hahn do it this year?

 

My opinion is that Hahn tried to fix the pen, but did a very bad job of it, starting with the fact the team had no real closer once it traded Reed. I'm not saying the Reed trade was ill conceived on its own. I would say without a backup plan for a pen without Reed, it was extremely risky, and the risk Hahn took blew up in his face.

 

Hahn did the same thing with the starting rotation, but on that score, he's been much more fortunate. Erik Johnson and Felipe Paulino blew up, but the Sox have gotten by with wire-waiver claim Hector Noesi and 29-year-old rookie Scott Carroll. Plus, John Danks has pitched much better than might have been expected.

 

 

Nate Jones last year had a 2.64 FIP, Addison Reed had a 3.17. Year before that Jones had a 3.39, Reed had a 3.64. The backup plan got hurt, it's really that simple.

[Dick Allen]

Another point.

 

To those who think Hahn didn't focus on the pen because we were "rebuilding" but he'll fix it next year, because it's easy to fix, doesn't that make out Hahn as a total moron?

 

I mean, if it's easy to fix the pen in a year, then why didn't Hahn do it this year?

 

My opinion is that Hahn tried to fix the pen, but did a very bad job of it, starting with the fact the team had no real closer once it traded Reed. I'm not saying the Reed trade was ill conceived on its own. I would say without a backup plan for a pen without Reed, it was extremely risky, and the risk Hahn took blew up in his face.

 

Hahn did the same thing with the starting rotation, but on that score, he's been much more fortunate. Erik Johnson and Felipe Paulino blew up, but the Sox have gotten by with wire-waiver claim Hector Noesi and 29-year-old rookie Scott Carroll. Plus, John Danks has pitched much better than might have been expected.

I will agree with this. Hahn, KW and JR specifically said they didn't want to go through another 99 loss season again. One way to pretty much assure that of not happening is to have a decent bullpen. If it is so easy, that should have been addressed. Most every team is always in the market for relievers, so I'm going to guess it's not as easy as advertised, especially when you really don't have anything in AAA or near ready in AA to even remotely consider hanging your hat.

 

Guys are going to fail, guys are going to get injured. You have to assume that. The Sox got burned because they signed the wrong guys and had nothing but waiver guys ready to step in when they and other waiver guys failed. The lack of arms high in the system isn't necessarily Hahn's fault, but it wasn't like he wasn't part of the decision makers the past decade.

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Addison Reed makes 538k this year. About 1/6th what they pay Beli and 1/8 what they paid Downs. I thought that trade was dumb from the start. It's documented.

 

I get on people for getting on Ventura after the fact. Anyone who really thinks Addison Reed doesn't help this team is just fooling themselves, just like they are fooling themselves if they think Matt Davidson is going to develop into a middle of the order major league bat.

2nd guessing mangers is as old as baseball itself whether its before or after the fact. In the history of the game it's usually after the fact since the internet is a more recent development and before that it was done after the fact in newspapers and sportstalk radio. Some here make good points some do not, But again please tell me your opinions of how you think Hahn should be developing his roster because you are criticizing after the fact as well . Your thing is arguing the stances people take on various topics. For once say what your stance is how to turn this team around ( not just one trade) so people can find your old posts and find your faults , your hits and misses ,the way you do it to others.

Edited August 4, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

Nate Jones last year had a 2.64 FIP, Addison Reed had a 3.17. Year before that Jones had a 3.39, Reed had a 3.64. The backup plan got hurt, it's really that simple.

Jones was pitching the 8th inning. Reed the 9th. I don't know if you are someone who has been talking about roles being changed and pitching different innings making a difference, but the Sox couldn't find guys who didn't cough it up in the 9th. Maybe Jones is lights out in the 9th, maybe he is a guy who would rather pitch the 7th or 8th.

[Dick Allen]

2nd guessing mangers is as old as baseball itself whether its before or after the fact. In the history of the game it's usually after the fact since the internet is a more recent development and before that it was done after the fact in newspapers and sportstalk radio. Some here make good points some do not, But again please tell me your opinions of how you think Hahn should be developing his roster because you are criticizing after the fact as well . Your thing is arguing the stances people take on various topics. For once say what your stance is how to turn this team around so people can find your old posts and find your faults , your hits and misses ,the way you do it to others.

Go back to the thread with the trade. You will see I am not criticizing after the fact. I didn't like the trade then. I didn't like the trade when Reed was struggling early and I don't like it now.

I've been wrong plenty and am not afraid to admit it.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

I will agree with this. Hahn, KW and JR specifically said they didn't want to go through another 99 loss season again. One way to pretty much assure that of not happening is to have a decent bullpen. If it is so easy, that should have been addressed. Most every team is always in the market for relievers, so I'm going to guess it's not as easy as advertised, especially when you really don't have anything in AAA or near ready in AA to even remotely consider hanging your hat.

 

Guys are going to fail, guys are going to get injured. You have to assume that. The Sox got burned because they signed the wrong guys and had nothing but waiver guys ready to step in when they and other waiver guys failed. The lack of arms high in the system isn't necessarily Hahn's fault, but it wasn't like he wasn't part of the decision makers the past decade.

 

Here are your free agents then: http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/position/rp

 

What would you have done differently?

 

It's so easy to criticize when we're sitting behind a computer screen with incomplete information. Given what was on the market, I have no problem with what Hahn did.

 

I also understand that you wouldn't have traded Reed, but I am going to disagree strongly and suggest that you are sorely mistaken if you think that would have solved all of the bullpen woes.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Jones was pitching the 8th inning. Reed the 9th. I don't know if you are someone who has been talking about roles being changed and pitching different innings making a difference, but the Sox couldn't find guys who didn't cough it up in the 9th. Maybe Jones is lights out in the 9th, maybe he is a guy who would rather pitch the 7th or 8th.

 

I have been. In a REBUILDING year, which this is, it's worth finding out whether he can handle that role or not.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Go back to the thread with the trade. You will see I am not criticizing after the fact.

So that's all you got ? Your stance on one trade ? I didn't ask for that . I asked for a stance on how to build the Sox into a winner. 2 responses no answer on that so you're leaving me to assume that playing devils advocate or being a contrarian is your thing . Isn't that called trolling ?

Edited August 4, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

Here are your free agents then: http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/position/rp

 

What would you have done differently?

 

It's so easy to criticize when we're sitting behind a computer screen with incomplete information. Given what was on the market, I have no problem with what Hahn did.

 

I also understand that you wouldn't have traded Reed, but I am going to disagree strongly and suggest that you are sorely mistaken if you think that would have solved all of the bullpen woes.

It wouldn't have solved all the woes, but if you take history into account, it alone makes the team at least 2 or 3 games better. The DBacks have lost 3 games when leading in the 9th. The White Sox the 2 years Reed was closing, lost 4 each season. They have lost 6 so far. Right there they are contending.

 

Asking someone exactly what they would do is a set up because I don't know what was available as far as trades. All I'm saying is he picked the wrong guys and shouldn't have traded Addison Reed. Reed was very underappreciated, and like Alexei Ramirez, who seems to be a popular guy to want to trade, is a guy who is going to cost a lot more to replace than he cost.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

So that's all you got ? Your stance on one trade ? I didn't ask for that . I asked for a stance on how to build the Sox into a winner. 2 responses no answer on that so you're leaving me to assume that playing devils advocate or being a contrarian is your thing . Isn't that called trolling ?

This is about the bullpen. My thoughts on how to build a winner are all throughout Soxtalk. Look them up. Some don't appear like they are any good. Some are pure genius.

 

But generally, pitching wins. I don't like the free agents this year, they are either going to cost a ton or really suck. That's why I wanted the Sox to look at them last season. Maybe that was dumb too. They need a starter. The bullpen is in shambles and they need a LH bat. Someone had an idea yesterday about VMart or Mourneau. I'm leery of VMart and don't think he'll leave Detroit anyway, but Mourneau is intriquing. His numbers are really good this season and his home/road splits are pretty even. His price tag shouldn't be too much. No way I would trade Ramirez unless blown away. Hahn is crafting his pitching staff around being groundball pitchers, and with Beckham out the door losing Ramirez would put a hurt on the pitching staff. If they both are gone next season, it may not always seem obvious but there are DPs turned by these guys that aren't turned by others.. And the bullpen is wide open. The Sox will also need a catcher, but there is Russell Martin and a ton of crap. Listening to Hahn the other day, I have a feeling at least one of Sanchez, Micah Johnson , Semien will not be White Sox property in 2015. I have mentioned Semien as a guy I would use like Tony Phillips earlier in his career where he can play several positions. Everyone but Sale, Q and Abreu would be available. Rodon would also be unavailable but he can't be traded anyway.

[thedoctor]

non-contending/rebuilding teams are going to have weak spots that keep them from contending. with this white sox team, the bullpen, and really to a larger extent the pitching staff, is the reason it isn't contending.

 

if it wasn't the bullpen it would be something else. the team isn't ready and wasn't going to be a legitimate contender this year under any circumstance.