Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[LDF]

 

I do blame Rich on being over confident on what we had to start the season.

 

first his trust was miss placed on Felipe Paulino, now I believe they manufactured an injury to shelve

him for the remainder of the season and avoid further embarrassment. howver on the flip side, who

would've thought that Johnson would pitch bad.

 

next the injury to the pen is in no way his fault.

 

the lack of hitting, Aza, DV and Gordo who would have thought they would have been so bad.

 

cat - flowers, I never thought he would be better than a 250 hitter. but the lack of hitting from other

position magnified everyone who was not hitting.

 

injury to another key player Avi, with the backup not hitting, this injury hurt.

 

Hahn job to have enuf players to plug in esp in pitching

[GreenSox]

To answer the question - yes, but that's part of rebuilding. Bullpen should be the last place to fix.

 

I think Guerra's useful as well; as are webb and probably Surkamp against lefties.

But they are all back end guys.

Just lack front end guys.

 

[Eminor3rd]

If anyone expected our front office to invest substantial resources in assuring that we had a contender-level bullpen, you haven't been paying much attention to this team over the past 12 months. Sometimes when you take a bunch of shots in the dark, they all miss. This shouldn't be surprising anyone.

 

I don't like it any more than anyone else does, but they FO had a plan that made sense, ownership approved it, and they're following through. You can choose to feel bad about the fact that the offense was better than expected, but I choose to see it as a good thing. This team has stepped up to the point where we may be able to consider ourselves in contention as early as next season. That's fantastic news for a team that went 63-99 just last year.

[southsider2k5]

I don't get the "it's a rebuilding year, therefore it's okay to trot out a horrible pen" argument at all.

The Sox don't do "rebuilding." At least they never did under Kenny Williams. Granted, Hahn changed out much of the core of the team, but it wasn't with the idea that they'd still suck. No one can convince me that that was ever even thought of among the Sox brass.

 

The problem was, he completely undervalued the importance of a good bullpen.

 

Here are the sorted stats for team bullpens for 2014. http://tinyurl.com/my2e7bh

 

This gives a pretty good idea of the value of a good pen. The Sox pen has lost 22 games, tops in the majors. Minnesota and KC are near the bottom, with 12 pen losses. The Tigers pen has lost 14 games. Cleveland's pen has lost 15 games.

 

Look at the difference between save opportunities and saves. For the Sox it's 17 games (25 saves in 42 chances). Cleveland is next worse at 13, with Minnesota at 11, and Detroit and KC at 10.

 

The Tigers bullpen ERA is actually worse than the Sox. But Minnesota and KC are both more than a run better than the Sox. Cleveland has the best bullpen ERA in the AL Central, and their relievers are 25-15.

 

So, swap out the Sox bullpen for the ones in Cleveland, KC, or Minnesota, and the Sox are vying with the Tigers for the AL Central lead. It's not because those teams have spent a lot more money on their pen, or money that would be beyond the White Sox' resources. They've just done a much better job filling those holes.

 

Kenny Williams, before he was promoted, even used the word "rebuilding" for what was happening to the Sox right now.

[harfman77]

I do blame Rich on being over confident on what we had to start the season.

 

first his trust was miss placed on Felipe Paulino, now I believe they manufactured an injury to shelve

him for the remainder of the season and avoid further embarrassment. howver on the flip side, who

would've thought that Johnson would pitch bad.

 

next the injury to the pen is in no way his fault.

 

the lack of hitting, Aza, DV and Gordo who would have thought they would have been so bad.

 

cat - flowers, I never thought he would be better than a 250 hitter. but the lack of hitting from other

position magnified everyone who was not hitting.

 

injury to another key player Avi, with the backup not hitting, this injury hurt.

 

Hahn job to have enuf players to plug in esp in pitching

 

I think Hahn knew exactly what he had going into the season.

 

The goal was to buy low on guys like Cleto, Putnam, Paulino, Downs, and Lindstron at the beginning of the season and try to establish some value in them so that they could be dealt as the Cubs have done with Hammels and Feldman the last couple seasons. They either didn't pan out or were injured but it is worth a gamble in a season when you don't expect to contend to take some pieces off the trash heap and see if you can shine them up and sell them off. I believe the team as constructed has outplayed the front offices expectations for the season with the play of Gillaspie and Abreu surpassing expectations.

 

Hahn has been amassing pitching both in the draft and as the pieces he receives back in trades. He picked up what could be to ML contributors in the Peavy deal and they have gone heavy after pitching in the last couple drafts. The pieces are being put into place, and the performance of the team this year may have accelerated the timeline so that the team feels comfortable in making investments in the off-season to go for it next year.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

If you go back to the thread where Lindstrom was DL'd , I didn't read one post that hinted the poster thought it was much of a blow to the bullpen, and that was after Nate Jones was out. It ranged from the bullpen will be better off, to someone saying it could cost the Sox a Brandon Jacobs-like prospect at the deadline, to mentioning several of the other relievers as interchangable parts.

 

I have always liked Nate Jones. But there is another guy who has been ripped on this board before, and suddenly he is an irreplaceable part of the bullpen.

 

I found a few with a quick scan.

 

I understand people being frustrated with Lindstrom's performance and somewhat ambivalent (or in some cases, glad) he's no longer the closer, but this is really a frustrating injury. We're not competing this year. I just can't see us seriously thinking we have a shot come July. Lindstrom is a veteran pitcher who has had success in his past. We really should have wanted him to be our closer, essentially no matter what, right up until the trade deadline in hopes that someone desperate for BP help came calling and offered us a B-level prospect for him. This no appears extremely unlikely to happen.

 

 

Exactly, there is no "good news" here.

 

 

I know I'm about to play the moral high ground card here, but you should not be happy that a player on the team you cheer for was [potentially seriously] injured.

 

[LittleHurt05]

It wouldn't have solved all the woes, but if you take history into account, it alone makes the team at least 2 or 3 games better. The DBacks have lost 3 games when leading in the 9th. The White Sox the 2 years Reed was closing, lost 4 each season. They have lost 6 so far. Right there they are contending.

 

Asking someone exactly what they would do is a set up because I don't know what was available as far as trades. All I'm saying is he picked the wrong guys and shouldn't have traded Addison Reed. Reed was very underappreciated, and like Alexei Ramirez, who seems to be a popular guy to want to trade, is a guy who is going to cost a lot more to replace than he cost.

 

I seem to have missed hearing about the Dbacks #1 closer option getting injured after one appearance. Then I also missed the part where their #2 closer option got injured a month later. I also missed when that happened to the 2012 & 2013 White Sox.

 

I guess Addison Reed deserves credit for staying healthy which Jones & Lindstrom couldn't do. Is that Hahn's fault?

[Dick Allen]

I seem to have missed hearing about the Dbacks #1 closer option getting injured after one appearance. Then I also missed the part where their #2 closer option got injured a month later. I also missed when that happened to the 2012 & 2013 White Sox.

 

I guess Addison Reed deserves credit for staying healthy which Jones & Lindstrom couldn't do. Is that Hahn's fault?

The 2005 White Sox won the WS losing their 3rd closer. And check on the Red Sox, Bailey, Hanrahan, blow out and they win the WS.

 

I don't know why Jones was the #1 closer. Lindstrom won the job and was 6 for 9 before he went down. If Addison Reed does that, he's horrible. Matt Lindstrom turns out to be the glue that held the bullpen together. He wasn't very good.

 

I have mentioned, I like Nate Jones, but the truth is, the next save he gets will be the first of his career.

 

Hahn weakened the bullpen by trading Reed for what is turning into essential nothing.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[VAfan]

You can rebuild and contend at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Many on this board thought, going into the season, that the Sox would be around .500. Which puts you into contention for the playoffs (if not the World Series) in today's MLB.

 

Rick Hahn didn't intentionally build a bad bullpen, or completely ignore the pen on the idea that it wasn't worth doing anything until the team was ready to "contend." He did, however, have a very bad plan, and undervalued the importance of a good pen, and he deserves criticism on both counts, since with a better plan, and a better pen, the 2014 White Sox would be vying for first place in the AL Central, not to mention a wild card slot. I think these points are undeniable.

[southsider2k5]

You can rebuild and contend at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Many on this board thought, going into the season, that the Sox would be around .500. Which puts you into contention for the playoffs (if not the World Series) in today's MLB.

 

Rick Hahn didn't intentionally build a bad bullpen, or completely ignore the pen on the idea that it wasn't worth doing anything until the team was ready to "contend." He did, however, have a very bad plan, and undervalued the importance of a good pen, and he deserves criticism on both counts, since with a better plan, and a better pen, the 2014 White Sox would be vying for first place in the AL Central, not to mention a wild card slot. I think these points are undeniable.

 

Not really. A bad pen is something that tends to happen when your back two guys get hurt.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This is about the bullpen. My thoughts on how to build a winner are all throughout Soxtalk. Look them up. Some don't appear like they are any good. Some are pure genius.

 

But generally, pitching wins. I don't like the free agents this year, they are either going to cost a ton or really suck. That's why I wanted the Sox to look at them last season. Maybe that was dumb too. They need a starter. The bullpen is in shambles and they need a LH bat. Someone had an idea yesterday about VMart or Mourneau. I'm leery of VMart and don't think he'll leave Detroit anyway, but Mourneau is intriquing. His numbers are really good this season and his home/road splits are pretty even. His price tag shouldn't be too much. No way I would trade Ramirez unless blown away. Hahn is crafting his pitching staff around being groundball pitchers, and with Beckham out the door losing Ramirez would put a hurt on the pitching staff. If they both are gone next season, it may not always seem obvious but there are DPs turned by these guys that aren't turned by others.. And the bullpen is wide open. The Sox will also need a catcher, but there is Russell Martin and a ton of crap. Listening to Hahn the other day, I have a feeling at least one of Sanchez, Micah Johnson , Semien will not be White Sox property in 2015. I have mentioned Semien as a guy I would use like Tony Phillips earlier in his career where he can play several positions. Everyone but Sale, Q and Abreu would be available. Rodon would also be unavailable but he can't be traded anyway.

It really isn't about the bullpen.it's about contending this year since you've been arguing that with a bullpen " I coulda been a contenda, instead of a bum , which is what I am". But at least you gave me some clue on your thoughts but not the main one I asked for. Build for a contender every year or build a strong young core ( which hardly ever includes bullpen pieces)? Both ? Can't really do both since now it takes mega contracts to keep core intact or fill holes you missed. So I don't actually know your personal philosophy except that you are condemning Hahn for not making the right decisions to build a bullpen for CONTENDING THIS YEAR. Also it's more of a state of the union your giving me with a few exceptions for a few guys .

 

But I also thought a free agent ,specifically Ellsbury should've been signed since I value above avg hit tool and speed and defense for outfielders more than I do power ,but this team just can't compete signing free agents like him with the Yankees . And lo and behold that guy who talked about VMart and Morneau was me in my initial stages of looking for LH bats to acquire.

 

I still think you're a contrarian ( I'm being nice) then anything else but you,in your 3rd or 4th attempt, won't take a stand one way or another on a philosophy. I can only conclude you want to try to contend every year and that's fine. But I'd like to hear it from you. Trust me ,I like to contend every year too but its nearly impossible in the day and age of mega contracts that cripple teams without deep pocket owners so I don't argue for a great bullpen in what should've been a rebuilding year.

 

[witesoxfan]

It wouldn't have solved all the woes, but if you take history into account, it alone makes the team at least 2 or 3 games better. The DBacks have lost 3 games when leading in the 9th. The White Sox the 2 years Reed was closing, lost 4 each season. They have lost 6 so far. Right there they are contending.

 

Asking someone exactly what they would do is a set up because I don't know what was available as far as trades. All I'm saying is he picked the wrong guys and shouldn't have traded Addison Reed. Reed was very underappreciated, and like Alexei Ramirez, who seems to be a popular guy to want to trade, is a guy who is going to cost a lot more to replace than he cost.

 

To some extent, I agree, but it's not as if there haven't been talented arms in the bullpen or guys who have a decent track record. Soemtimes those don't work out. It's just frustrating seeing people say "It's Hahn's fault!" when he has brought in some good arms and they haven't done anything. At some point, the accountability has to be put on the players too.

 

It's worth pointing out that Reed has an even lower ground ball percentge this year, which means he could have legitimately allowed more home runs here too - 1 or 2 more is a signficant number and it could have been the difference between those. He's not a bad reliever, and the bullpen would be better with him, but it's impossible to say how much better or what would have happened exactly. The results of that trade haven't looked good thus far but I would hope that Hahn and company will continue to see opportunities to cash in on value like that moving forward.

[LittleHurt05]

The 2005 White Sox won the WS losing their 3rd closer. And check on the Red Sox, Bailey, Hanrahan, blow out and they win the WS.

 

I don't know why Jones was the #1 closer. Lindstrom won the job and was 6 for 9 before he went down. If Addison Reed does that, he's horrible. Matt Lindstrom turns out to be the glue that held the bullpen together. He wasn't very good.

 

I have mentioned, I like Nate Jones, but the truth is, the next save he gets will be the first of his career.

 

Hahn weakened the bullpen by trading Reed for what is turning into essential nothing.

 

Exactly. How many saves did Bobby Jenks have going into the 2005 season? If multiple WS winners were able to go though multiple closers, why would you hold onto Addison Reed if you could get a young, talented hitter?

[Dick Allen]

It really isn't about the bullpen.it's about contending this year since you've been arguing that with a bullpen " I coulda been a contenda, instead of a bum , which is what I am". But at least you gave me some clue on your thoughts but not the main one I asked for. Build for a contender every year or build a strong young core ( which hardly ever includes bullpen pieces)? Both ? Can't really do both since now it takes mega contracts to keep core intact or fill holes you missed. So I don't actually know your personal philosophy except that you are condemning Hahn for not making the right decisions to build a bullpen for CONTENDING THIS YEAR. Also it's more of a state of the union your giving me with a few exceptions for a few guys .

 

But I also thought a free agent ,specifically Ellsbury should've been signed since I value above avg hit tool and speed and defense for outfielders more than I do power ,but this team just can't compete signing free agents like him with the Yankees . And lo and behold that guy who talked about VMart and Morneau was me in my initial stages of looking for LH bats to acquire.

 

I still think you're a contrarian ( I'm being nice) then anything else but you,in your 3rd or 4th attempt, won't take a stand one way or another on a philosophy. I can only conclude you want to try to contend every year and that's fine. But I'd like to hear it from you. Trust me ,I like to contend every year too but its nearly impossible in the day and age of mega contracts that cripple teams without deep pocket owners so I don't argue for a great bullpen in what should've been a rebuilding year.

Like I was saying, if Hahn didn't make the Reed /Davidson trade, the White Sox would probably be within 2 games of the 2nd wild card, with a head to head coming up in Toronto. I have taken a stand and don't change my stance with the wind. He weakened the bullpen with that trade and didn't strengthen anything except non Charlotte Knights IL pitchers' k-rates.

[ShandyMan]

As a previous poster suggested, the bullpen is one of the final pieces that you address. There was no reason to make any substantial commitments going into a year where many thought we would be still far from competing. With that said, RH is not the one throwing meatballs that get launched out of the park.

 

Injuries to your 2 main bullpen pieces with one bad luck signing will put nearly any bullpen in the MLB into a bad situation.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

You can rebuild and contend at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Many on this board thought, going into the season, that the Sox would be around .500. Which puts you into contention for the playoffs (if not the World Series) in today's MLB.

 

Rick Hahn didn't intentionally build a bad bullpen, or completely ignore the pen on the idea that it wasn't worth doing anything until the team was ready to "contend." He did, however, have a very bad plan, and undervalued the importance of a good pen, and he deserves criticism on both counts, since with a better plan, and a better pen, the 2014 White Sox would be vying for first place in the AL Central, not to mention a wild card slot. I think these points are undeniable.

They pretty much are mutually exclusive unless you have great attendance, a huge TV contract, a deep farm system, a deep pockets owner willing to spend anything it takes to contend, lack of injuries, and a hit or two on your wishful thinking signees . Which of these do the Sox have? Zilch , zip, nada, goose egg. That's 6 things a team usually needs to compete .Even getting a few of them and you compete.

Edited August 4, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

As a previous poster suggested, the bullpen is one of the final pieces that you address. There was no reason to make any substantial commitments going into a year where many thought we would be still far from competing. With that said, RH is not the one throwing meatballs that get launched out of the park.

 

Injuries to your 2 main bullpen pieces with one bad luck signing will put nearly any bullpen in the MLB into a bad situation.

The point is if Matt Lindstrom and Nate Jones are your top bullpen pieces, your bullpen isn't very good.

[southsider2k5]

The point is if Matt Lindstrom and Nate Jones are your top bullpen pieces, your bullpen isn't very good.

 

It is still much better than one with Makiel Cleto, Taylor Thompson, and the rest of the clowns that have been out there this year.

[Chisoxfn]

Not really. A bad pen is something that tends to happen when your back two guys get hurt.

The back 2 guys, well the back guy, was one of the worst in baseball anyway. We aren't talking about two of the top relievers in baseball. Nate Jones argument works, he was one of the better 7th / 8th inning guys in the game but Lindstrom wasn't even close to that and as a closer he isn't very good. Sure we had an injury but as a whole this was a bad pen. Lindstrom was our 5th best reliever a year ago and all of a sudden this year he was our so called "best". That alone should tell you how bad the pen was set up. Again, I wasn't going to get all that mad about it because I didn't expect to contend and figured we'd be able to use it to potentially find some cheaper guys and get our young pitchers some time to hopefully prove themselves so we had some cost-controlled options that were ready for when we were contending.

[Dick Allen]

Hahn knew there was trouble in spring training, when he started claiming waived guys and signing released guys to minor league deals. That was before he knew the severity of the Jones injury and when Lindstrom was healthy.

 

There has been so much crap in the White Sox bullpen this season we won't remember half of their names in a couple of years.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

Hahn knew there was trouble in spring training, when he started claiming waived guys and signing released guys to minor league deals.

 

There has been so much crap in the White Sox bullpen this season we won't remember half of their names in a couple of years.

 

Again, 63-99 doesn't get fixed in one fell swoop. Relief pitchers are notoriously volatile from year to year; it's stupid to build a bullpen that you hope to stay together for several years. This was simply not the year to invest in the bullpen, and it shouldn't have been.

[ILMOU]

Again, 63-99 doesn't get fixed in one fell swoop. Relief pitchers are notoriously volatile from year to year; it's stupid to build a bullpen that you hope to stay together for several years. This was simply not the year to invest in the bullpen, and it shouldn't have been.

 

I agree with all of this. All the acquired pieces are here on 1 year deals. By design.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[2nd_city_saint787]

Hey DA, I remember you bringing up Tommy Millones FB% as a reason why you don't think he'd be a good trade for the Sox....Why are you a fan of a guy who ranked 9th among ALL relievers in fly balls last year?

Edited August 4, 2014 by scs787

[Dick Allen]

Hey DA, I remember you bringing up Tommy Millones FB% as a reason why you don't think he'd be a good trade for the Sox....Why are you a fan of a guy who ranked 9th among ALL relievers in fly balls last year?

Because he is in to get 3 outs, not 18, and his strikeout rate is increasing.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Like I was saying, if Hahn didn't make the Reed /Davidson trade, the White Sox would probably be within 2 games of the 2nd wild card, with a head to head coming up in Toronto. I have taken a stand and don't change my stance with the wind. He weakened the bullpen with that trade and didn't strengthen anything except non Charlotte Knights IL pitchers' k-rates.

OK so your stance is contend every year right ? Hand out big contracts, sign free agents, pay a lot for more established bullpen pieces. So basically spend like a drunken sailor in the Phillipines ? Somehow sign a big TV contract have no injuries, every pot luck signee produces beyond expectations, fans are flocking to the Cell. I can get behind that philosophy only it doesn't work that way with our current owner or being the 2nd most popular team in a 2 team city.. Trade Reinsdorf for Mark Cuban and I'm behind you 100 %.