Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[VAfan]

They pretty much are mutually exclusive unless you have great attendance, a huge TV contract, a deep farm system, a deep pockets owner willing to spend anything it takes to contend, lack of injuries, and a hit or two on your wishful thinking signees . Which of these do the Sox have? Zilch , zip, nada, goose egg. That's 6 things a team usually needs to compete .Even getting a few of them and you compete.

 

This is just FALSE.

 

The Sox this year are both rebuilding, and had Hahn had a better bullpen plan, would also be contending. And they could have done it without spending much more money.

[Dick Allen]

OK so your stance is contend every year right ? Hand out big contracts, sign free agents, pay a lot for more established bullpen pieces. So basically spend like a drunken sailor in the Phillipines ? Somehow sign a big TV contract have no injuries, every pot luck signee produces beyond expectations, fans are flocking to the Cell. I can get behind that philosophy only it doesn't work that way with our current owner or being the 2nd most popular team in a 2 team city.. Trade Reinsdorf for Mark Cuban and I'm behind you 100 %.

I actually wanted them to keep a $538k pitcher. I don't know what you are on to come up with the other stuff, although I'm sure you are now glad the Sox spent some money on Abreu. And they bid 9 figures on Tanaka. They have plenty of money.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[2nd_city_saint787]

Because he is in to get 3 outs, not 18, and his strikeout rate is increasing.

 

As have his HR/9 rate which is 1.99...And he pitches in a pitcher friendly ballpark.

 

Had to figure sooner or later those FBs catch up with him. If he gave up 1.99 HR/9 here in Chicago people would be bashing the hell out of him.....Esp. those fancy FIP guys. I couldn't imagine how much we'd hear about his 4.44 FIP.

[Dick Allen]

As have his HR/9 rate which is 1.99...And he pitches in a pitcher friendly ballpark.

 

Had to figure sooner or later those FBs catch up with him. If he gave up 1.99 HR/9 here in Chicago people would be bashing the hell out of him.....Esp. those fancy FIP guys. I couldn't imagine how much we'd hear about his 4.44 FIP.

USCF is playing as a pitcher's park this season. I think bottom 3rd for HR. He's given up a ton of homers, but the team has lost 3 games he came in for a save, which is right in line with the 4 the Sox lost each season Reed was their closer. The White Sox have lost 6 games they have led in the 9th inning this year.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[VAfan]

As a previous poster suggested, the bullpen is one of the final pieces that you address. There was no reason to make any substantial commitments going into a year where many thought we would be still far from competing. With that said, RH is not the one throwing meatballs that get launched out of the park.

 

Injuries to your 2 main bullpen pieces with one bad luck signing will put nearly any bullpen in the MLB into a bad situation.

 

But this is a mistake, and is part of my criticism of Hahn for undervaluing the importance of a good bullpen.

 

If you look at the stats I posted earlier, a great bullpen versus a bad one can mean as much as a 10-game swing in the standings. 10 GAMES! That right there is enough of a difference to turn an also-ran into a contender.

 

You also mistakenly think that all the Sox needed for everything to go swimmingly was for Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom not to get hurt. At least I'm assuming that's who you mean by the "2 main bullpen pieces."

 

The problem with that is that Nate Jones had zero saves going into this season, and Matt Lindstrom is NOT and was NOT a viable option as a closer, even he had remained healthy all year.

 

Hahn went into the year without a viable option at closer, and things went downhill from there. A bad plan, and one worthy of criticism.

[VAfan]

Not really. A bad pen is something that tends to happen when your back two guys get hurt.

 

Not really.

 

Bellisario isn't hurt. Scott Downs never got hurt. Javy Guerra, a waiver-wire pickup who's blown 5 saves, isn't hurt. Rienzo isn't hurt. And Matt Lindstrom, even when he was healthy, wasn't a viable closer.

 

The plan was bad, and it came out worse because Nate Jones hasn't played. But Nate Jones being healthy wouldn't have saved this bullpen.

 

Just accept that Rick Hahn deserves criticism for a bad bullpen plan, and one that undervalued the importance of a good bullpen. I'm not arguing that he should be fired.

[southsider2k5]

I actually wanted them to keep a $538k pitcher. I don't know what you are on to come up with the other stuff, although I'm sure you are now glad the Sox spent some money on Abreu. And they bid 9 figures on Tanaka. They have plenty of money.

 

In the spot where the Sox are, a starting 3B is much more important than a closer. We are taking about one inning 40 to 50 times a year, versus 140-150 games a year. Sure Davidson failed, but unless that closer is the final piece of a playoff team, you make that deal every single day.

[Dick Allen]

In the spot where the Sox are, a starting 3B is much more important than a closer. We are taking about one inning 40 to 50 times a year, versus 140-150 games a year. Sure Davidson failed, but unless that closer is the final piece of a playoff team, you make that deal every single day.

The White Sox didn't get one of those in the trade.

[GGajewski18]

In the spot where the Sox are, a starting 3B is much more important than a closer. We are taking about one inning 40 to 50 times a year, versus 140-150 games a year. Sure Davidson failed, but unless that closer is the final piece of a playoff team, you make that deal every single day.

 

To be fair, this is his only year he has failed at any level. There is no reason he can't pick it up next year.

[GGajewski18]

The White Sox didn't get one of those in the trade.

 

Not yet. Davidson is only 23

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I actually wanted them to keep a $538k pitcher. I don't know what you are on to come up with the other stuff, although I'm sure you are now glad the Sox spent some money on Abreu. And they bid 9 figures on Tanaka. They have plenty of money.

You also wanted to sign a few other pitchers to mega year deals. What I am "on" is your refusal to state how you would have made the Sox a winner this year and for years to come. You can't just say making better decisions on the bullpen gives us a contender without having a plan to start with . Don't try going on the attack against me. I know your M.O.

 

Of course they have plenty of money and they didn't spend all of it this year because they are rebuilding rebuilding rebuilding. What part of that do you not understand ? You must be on something if you can't comprehend .What they don't have is unlimited resources to spend on the most unpredictable way there is in baseball to make the right choices besides the draft and that is the bullpen. The payroll will be at its max ,whatever that is when, the Sox decide they need a major piece to put them over the top. Otherwise it can't be sustained for long that way in this market.

Edited August 4, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

Not really.

 

Bellisario isn't hurt. Scott Downs never got hurt. Javy Guerra, a waiver-wire pickup who's blown 5 saves, isn't hurt. Rienzo isn't hurt. And Matt Lindstrom, even when he was healthy, wasn't a viable closer.

 

The plan was bad, and it came out worse because Nate Jones hasn't played. But Nate Jones being healthy wouldn't have saved this bullpen.

 

Just accept that Rick Hahn deserves criticism for a bad bullpen plan, and one that undervalued the importance of a good bullpen. I'm not arguing that he should be fired.

 

Those three are perfect examples of why just throwing money at a pen isn't a great idea either. They are notoriously volatile. We threw $4 million at Scott Downs who has been one of the best LOOGY's in the game for a decade. We threw a three year deal at Scott Linebrink who was as steady as they came before getting to Chicago. Matt Thornton was a great of a lefty reliever as existed for nearly a decade just cratered last year.

 

They obviously had a plan. The brought in guys to try to stabilize things. They weren't going to spend 8 figure contracts on relievers, when just about everyone had the Sox for a .500 season. That is just a complete waste of resources.

[southsider2k5]

The White Sox didn't get one of those in the trade.

 

In hindsight, yes. In hindsight many guys sucked this year. We can't go back and retroactively cut the 10 guys on this team who have underperformed either.

 

But in terms of a building a baseball team, that is a move you make every, single time, no matter what hindsight you apply here.

[2nd_city_saint787]

The White Sox didn't get one of those in the trade.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I agree with all of this. All the acquired pieces are here on 1 year deals. By design.

Stop making sense. A GM dealing with the media every day cannot just come out and say I think we have every piece we need to win the World Series this year and especially can't say "we have no chance this year" .The political thing he must say is " I like our team. I think we have improved and are working on a goal we feel will put us in contention for many years to come. We have a young exciting team and we're going to get much better sooner rather than later."

[GGajewski18]

In hindsight, yes. In hindsight many guys sucked this year. We can't go back and retroactively cut the 10 guys on this team who have underperformed either.

 

But in terms of a building a baseball team, that is a move you make every, single time, no matter what hindsight you apply here.

 

Exactly. When you have a CHANCE of acquiring a franchise third baseman for a good BUT replaceable closer, you make that trade 10 times out of 10.

 

A lot of people wrote off Hawkins after his poor performance last year, he has picked it up a little bit.

 

My point is Davidson is much further along than Hawkins is, and a proven track record yet everyone wants to get rid of him or even call him a non prospect after one bad year.

 

Davidson will be a major leaguer, just depends whether that'll be with the Sox or another team

[southsider2k5]

Stop making sense. A GM dealing with the media every day cannot just come out and say I think we have every piece we need to win the World Series this year and especially can't say "we have no chance this year" .The political thing he must say is " I like our team. I think we have improved and are working on a goal we feel will put us in contention for many years to come. We have a young exciting team and we're going to get much better sooner rather than later."

 

And then someone starts screaming "White Flag" when it doesn't work.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

In hindsight, yes. In hindsight many guys sucked this year. We can't go back and retroactively cut the 10 guys on this team who have underperformed either.

 

But in terms of a building a baseball team, that is a move you make every, single time, no matter what hindsight you apply here.

Dick doesn't use hindsight he clearly stated his plan to contend every year and his opposition to rebuilding all along. Didn't you know that ?

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

Adam Russell is available, y'all.

[LittleHurt05]

USCF is playing as a pitcher's park this season. I think bottom 3rd for HR. He's given up a ton of homers, but the team has lost 3 games he came in for a save, which is right in line with the 4 the Sox lost each season Reed was their closer. The White Sox have lost 6 games they have led in the 9th inning this year.

 

That's just wrong. Reed blew 8 saves in 2013 and the Sox lost 7 of those games.

 

May 5 - Sox lead 5-3, Reed gives up 2-run double to Billy Butler, Sox lose in 10

June 11 - Sox lead 5-4, Reed gives up a HR to Bautista, Sox lose in 10

June 28- Sox lead 8-5, Reed gives up 4 runs including the dagger Swisher HR, Sox lose 9-8

July 31 - Sox score 2 in the 9th to go up 5-3, Reed gives up 2 sac flies, Sox lose in 10

September 7 - Gillaspie breaks a 2-2 tie in the 10th, Reed gives up 3 hits, Sox lose 4-3

September 21 - Sox lead 6-5, Reed walks 4 guys and allows Detroit to tie the game, Sox lose in 12

September 24 - Tank and De Aza hit solo homers in the 9th to give Sox a comeback 4-3 lead, Reed gives up a 2 run bomb to Giambi

 

[Dick Allen]

In hindsight, yes. In hindsight many guys sucked this year. We can't go back and retroactively cut the 10 guys on this team who have underperformed either.

 

But in terms of a building a baseball team, that is a move you make every, single time, no matter what hindsight you apply here.

No it's not. They obviously thought Davidson was better than he was. I'm not applying hindsight. I thought Reed was more valuable than Davidson.

[cabiness42]

Adam Russell is available, y'all.

 

I just saw him pitch a few weeks ago. 1.2 IP, 0 R, 1 H, 1 BB, 2 K

[Dick Allen]

That's just wrong. Reed blew 8 saves in 2013 and the Sox lost 7 of those games.

 

May 5 - Sox lead 5-3, Reed gives up 2-run double to Billy Butler, Sox lose in 10

June 11 - Sox lead 5-4, Reed gives up a HR to Bautista, Sox lose in 10

June 28- Sox lead 8-5, Reed gives up 4 runs including the dagger Swisher HR, Sox lose 9-8

July 31 - Sox score 2 in the 9th to go up 5-3, Reed gives up 2 sac flies, Sox lose in 10

September 7 - Gillaspie breaks a 2-2 tie in the 10th, Reed gives up 3 hits, Sox lose 4-3

September 21 - Sox lead 6-5, Reed walks 4 guys and allows Detroit to tie the game, Sox lose in 12

September 24 - Tank and De Aza hit solo homers in the 9th to give Sox a comeback 4-3 lead, Reed gives up a 2 run bomb to Giambi

Yes. I was wrong. I was taking leads into the 9th inning.

[greg775]

This is just FALSE.

 

The Sox this year are both rebuilding, and had Hahn had a better bullpen plan, would also be contending. And they could have done it without spending much more money.

 

Great post. I think we have a lot of folks in here I wish were my boss. You guys cut Hahn so much slack it's amazing. I like Hahn, but Hahn is getting so much benefit of the doubt when he totally blew it on the bullpen and like somebody else pointed out wasted some money on Paulino, Keppinger, etc.

 

I don't get the Addison Reed hate either. That trade is a fricking disaster right now. The Sox current third baseman looks like he'll be hitting liners for the Sox for years to come. His defense sucks but so does the defense of the guy we got for Reed.

You can throw out pretty much all criticism of Robin now because of this bullpen. Nobody could win more games than he has unless the starters all pulled an Ozzie-postseason 2005 and threw all complete games.

Hahn seems like a decent guy. I wish him well but the Reed trade IMO is a disaster and I don't know frankly why others disagree with me on this one.

Edited August 4, 2014 by greg775

[cabiness42]

Great post. I think we have a lot of folks in here I wish were my boss. You guys cut Hahn so much slack it's amazing. I like Hahn, but Hahn is getting so much benefit of the doubt when he totally blew it on the bullpen and like somebody else pointed out wasted some money on Paulino, Keppinger, etc.

 

I don't get the Addison Reed hate either. That trade is a fricking disaster right now. The Sox current third baseman looks like he'll be hitting liners for the Sox for years to come. His defense sucks but so does the defense of the guy we got for Reed.

You can throw out pretty much all criticism of Robin now because of this bullpen. Nobody could win more games than he has unless the starters all pulled an Ozzie-postseason 2005 and threw all complete games.

Hahn seems like a decent guy. I wish him well but the Reed trade IMO is a disaster and I don't know frankly why others disagree with me on this one.

 

Liking a trade that sent a Sox player away does not equal hate for the player or the person. This kind of hyperbole is why nobody likes you.