Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[GGajewski18]

Great post. I think we have a lot of folks in here I wish were my boss. You guys cut Hahn so much slack it's amazing. I like Hahn, but Hahn is getting so much benefit of the doubt when he totally blew it on the bullpen and like somebody else pointed out wasted some money on Paulino, Keppinger, etc.

 

I don't get the Addison Reed hate either. That trade is a fricking disaster right now. The Sox current third baseman looks like he'll be hitting liners for the Sox for years to come. His defense sucks but so does the defense of the guy we got for Reed.

You can throw out pretty much all criticism of Robin now because of this bullpen. Nobody could win more games than he has unless the starters all pulled an Ozzie-postseason 2005 and threw all complete games.

Hahn seems like a decent guy. I wish him well but the Reed trade IMO is a disaster and I don't know frankly why others disagree with me on this one.

 

Pretty sure no one hates Addison Reed, but you talk to any GM, and I guarantee at least 25 other teams make that deal. I'm a huge Reed fan, was bummed Sox traded him, but was stoked that Hahn got Davidson in return. It's one bad year. You guys are so pessimistic, its annoying.

 

Adrian Beltre was never good until the age of what 30? Some guys take time. I'm just glad half you guys aren't GMs, because you make the Reed for Davidson deal 10 times out of 10.

[greg775]

Liking a trade that sent a Sox player away does not equal hate for the player or the person. This kind of hyperbole is why nobody likes you.

 

It's not hyperbole. Maybe I could choose a better word but "hating on" is in the vernacular of America right now. It's just a saying.

[VAfan]

Of course they have plenty of money and they didn't spend all of it this year because they are rebuilding rebuilding rebuilding. What part of that do you not understand ? You must be on something if you can't comprehend .What they don't have is unlimited resources to spend on the most unpredictable way there is in baseball to make the right choices besides the draft and that is the bullpen. The payroll will be at its max ,whatever that is when, the Sox decide they need a major piece to put them over the top. Otherwise it can't be sustained for long that way in this market.

 

This is the argument that gets me. "Rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding." WTF does that mean?

 

To you it seems to mean -- put a crappy bullpen out there because you don't have a better plan -- then when the crappy bullpen sinks the season, tell the fans "we were just rebuilding; thanks for spending your good money coming to our games; we didn't really plan on contending this year anyway so it doesn't really matter that our bullpen stinks!!"

I'm confident that's NOT what the Sox brass intended.

 

Instead, they had a plan, it was just a BAD PLAN. It was also a plan that undervalued the difference that a good bullpen can make on a team's W-L record.

 

For both of those reasons, Rick Hahn deserves considerable criticism. It's NO DEFENSE for Hahn to say "rebuilding." And, in fact, if we were able to get Rick Hahn to answer this question honestly, I bet he would agree that he messed up the bullpen this season. I just hope he learns his lesson.

[greg775]

Pretty sure no one hates Addison Reed, but you talk to any GM, and I guarantee at least 25 other teams make that deal. I'm a huge Reed fan, was bummed Sox traded him, but was stoked that Hahn got Davidson in return. It's one bad year. You guys are so pessimistic, its annoying.

 

Adrian Beltre was never good until the age of what 30? Some guys take time. I'm just glad half you guys aren't GMs, because you make the Reed for Davidson deal 10 times out of 10.

 

My contention is YOU DON"T MAKE THE DEAL 10 TIMES OUT OF 10 when you have nothing to replace Reed with. You might counter we had Lindstrom/Jones. I am not high on either guy.

[Dick Allen]

When should the Sox get the go ahead to build a good bullpen?

[greg775]

This is the argument that gets me. "Rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding." WTF does that mean?

 

To you it seems to mean -- put a crappy bullpen out there because you don't have a better plan -- then when the crappy bullpen sinks the season, tell the fans "we were just rebuilding; thanks for spending your good money coming to our games; we didn't really plan on contending this year anyway so it doesn't really matter that our bullpen stinks!!"

I'm confident that's NOT what the Sox brass intended.

 

Instead, they had a plan, it was just a BAD PLAN. It was also a plan that undervalued the difference that a good bullpen can make on a team's W-L record.

 

For both of those reasons, Rick Hahn deserves considerable criticism. It's NO DEFENSE for Hahn to say "rebuilding." And, in fact, if we were able to get Rick Hahn to answer this question honestly, I bet he would agree that he messed up the bullpen this season. I just hope he learns his lesson.

 

Vafan states it much better than I ever could. I applaud that post.

[GGajewski18]

This is the argument that gets me. "Rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding." WTF does that mean?

 

To you it seems to mean -- put a crappy bullpen out there because you don't have a better plan -- then when the crappy bullpen sinks the season, tell the fans "we were just rebuilding; thanks for spending your good money coming to our games; we didn't really plan on contending this year anyway so it doesn't really matter that our bullpen stinks!!"

I'm confident that's NOT what the Sox brass intended.

 

Instead, they had a plan, it was just a BAD PLAN. It was also a plan that undervalued the difference that a good bullpen can make on a team's W-L record.

 

For both of those reasons, Rick Hahn deserves considerable criticism. It's NO DEFENSE for Hahn to say "rebuilding." And, in fact, if we were able to get Rick Hahn to answer this question honestly, I bet he would agree that he messed up the bullpen this season. I just hope he learns his lesson.

 

Yes the bullpen didn't work out. Did anybody realistically see this team have a chance go to the playoffs? Answer is no, not at all.

 

In a matter of a year and a half, Hahn has netted Avi Garcia, Adam Eaton, Jose Abreu, Connor Gillaspie, Francellis Montas, Carlos Rodon, Cleuius Rondon, JB Wendelken and Leury Garcia. That right there is great given the time he has been on the job. As other members have posted, guys like Belisario and Downs had good years last year, but have/were been so bad this year, who can predict that. Bullpens are such a crap shoot now, its really a dime and dozen position now.

[ILMOU]

When should the Sox get the go ahead to build a good bullpen?

Bullpens change like the tides. This offseason's choices will matter more, so I'll say November.

[GGajewski18]

My contention is YOU DON"T MAKE THE DEAL 10 TIMES OUT OF 10 when you have nothing to replace Reed with. You might counter we had Lindstrom/Jones. I am not high on either guy.

 

But Hahn thought he did. Lindstrom and Jones were going to be the closer, whoever won the job and by Hahn's comments the other day, it sounded like it was going to be Jones.

 

It doesn't matter if you're high on either guy, the Sox scouts, upper management and coaching staff were high on these guys.

 

You wanted Ubaldo Jimenez on the Sox...

 

When should the Sox get the go ahead to build a good bullpen?

 

Next year he can through trade or free agency. There will be some good veteran free agent relievers available next year.

[VAfan]

Also, I'd just like to clarify one point, because I've also been highly critical of Robin Ventura for mismanaging our bullpen.

 

We have a crappy bullpen. About that I think even Rick Hahn's defenders would agree.

 

My problem with Robin Ventura has been that he's made things worse than they needed to be by using guys like Bellisario in critical games. There's just no way you should give Bellisario the opportunity to LOSE 8 GAMES! He did it in back-to-back starts by Scott Carroll against the Twins, well AFTER everyone could see that Bellisario was toast. Both losses blunted what would otherwise have been a Sox hot streak back to .500 play. He also did it in 2012 with Matt Thornton, who was given the opportunity to lose 10 games for a contending team.

 

At some point, you've got to use different options.

[GGajewski18]

Also, I'd just like to clarify one point, because I've also been highly critical of Robin Ventura for mismanaging our bullpen.

 

We have a crappy bullpen. About that I think even Rick Hahn's defenders would agree.

 

My problem with Robin Ventura has been that he's made things worse than they needed to be by using guys like Bellisario in critical games. There's just no way you should give Bellisario the opportunity to LOSE 8 GAMES! He did it in back-to-back starts by Scott Carroll against the Twins, well AFTER everyone could see that Bellisario was toast. Both losses blunted what would otherwise have been a Sox hot streak back to .500 play. He also did it in 2012 with Matt Thornton, who was given the opportunity to lose 10 games for a contending team.

 

At some point, you've got to use different options.

 

I agree, but with Putnam now hurt, there literally isn't anyone that has had a good year besides Petricka. Webb has shown nothing in critical situations, Guerra enough said, and the others just haven't proved anything. Belisario at least had experience in high leverage situations. And for a stretch he was dominant in the 8th inning role.

[southsider2k5]

No it's not. They obviously thought Davidson was better than he was. I'm not applying hindsight. I thought Reed was more valuable than Davidson.

 

Here are your replies from the trade thread. Maybe I can read into some that you aren't excited about Davidson, but I don't see anything about the loss of Reed, or that he is more valuable than Davidson. There really isn't much of a commitment from you on the trade one way or another. I left out the posts about other things.

 

The first post is in relation to how everyone likes the trade.

No offense to anyone, but not only Soxtalk, just about every Sox message board. Scary.

 

It is all about the ceiling. Hawkins still hit with power. I read some scouting report that if he could learn to shorten his swing and use all fields the scout swears he will be a star. That is easier said than done.

 

I think Hahn will be thrilled with 3 out of Abreu, Garcia, Eaton and Davidson working out. But I am sure he is praying Abreu is one of the three. It is worth a shot. If they all work out, you have a new core on the fly.

 

I do know Phil Rogers has had a lot of input with BA on White Sox lists in the past. It was all part of Wilder's scheme. He would talk the frauds up with Phil to kind of hide his crime.

 

He has traded 2 of his young guys with value however in Santiago and Reed. It would really be awesome if all these young players pan out.

 

It could be, or it might be that he can't acquire what he wants with the guys who are available in his system.

 

KW got ripped for trading minor leaguers. Gio haunts him. Everyone else........who cares? It might have cost the Charlotte Knights some wins, but not the White Sox.

 

If none of Abreu, Eaton, Garcia or Davidson bust, Hahn is one of the best GMs in baseball. He's probably upper tier if one busts. Prospects break your heart. BP actually has a feature named that.

 

If Davidson is more Crede than Fields, if Garcia is more Maggs than Jeff Abbott, if Eaton is more Dykstra than John Cangelosi, Hahn's work will try to be copied everywhere.

 

Hope the AZ guys play like the last offensive prospect the Sox received from them. TCQ.

 

 

[VAfan]

Yes the bullpen didn't work out. Did anybody realistically see this team have a chance go to the playoffs? Answer is no, not at all.

 

In a matter of a year and a half, Hahn has netted Avi Garcia, Adam Eaton, Jose Abreu, Connor Gillaspie, Francellis Montas, Carlos Rodon, Cleuius Rondon, JB Wendelken and Leury Garcia. That right there is great given the time he has been on the job. As other members have posted, guys like Belisario and Downs had good years last year, but have/were been so bad this year, who can predict that. Bullpens are such a crap shoot now, its really a dime and dozen position now.

 

Notice I'm not calling for Rick Hahn to be fired. I think he's done some great work.

 

But you can't defend a lousy job of building a bullpen by saying he's done a great job elsewhere. It doesn't change the dual points I've been making. He had a bad plan, and he undervalued the importance of a good bullpen for a team's W-L record.

 

Yes, bullpens can be up and down. But I disagree that it can't be planned for properly.

[southsider2k5]

Also, I'd just like to clarify one point, because I've also been highly critical of Robin Ventura for mismanaging our bullpen.

 

We have a crappy bullpen. About that I think even Rick Hahn's defenders would agree.

 

My problem with Robin Ventura has been that he's made things worse than they needed to be by using guys like Bellisario in critical games. There's just no way you should give Bellisario the opportunity to LOSE 8 GAMES! He did it in back-to-back starts by Scott Carroll against the Twins, well AFTER everyone could see that Bellisario was toast. Both losses blunted what would otherwise have been a Sox hot streak back to .500 play. He also did it in 2012 with Matt Thornton, who was given the opportunity to lose 10 games for a contending team.

 

At some point, you've got to use different options.

 

He's used MANY different options. I think something like 4 guys have tried closing games alone this year in Lindstrom, Petricka, Bellisario, and Putnam. I think pretty much everyone who has been here for longer than a week has gotten a chance at being the 8th inning guy at some point. Even Webb has been out there a couple of times.

[VAfan]

I agree, but with Putnam now hurt, there literally isn't anyone that has had a good year besides Petricka. Webb has shown nothing in critical situations, Guerra enough said, and the others just haven't proved anything. Belisario at least had experience in high leverage situations. And for a stretch he was dominant in the 8th inning role.

 

Webb/Petricka were actually Ventura's 8-9th inning options, and he used them that way this week. The problem was he FIRST put in Bellisario to give the Twins 3 baserunners, all of whom scored and cost the Sox the ballgame.

[cabiness42]

It's not hyperbole. Maybe I could choose a better word but "hating on" is in the vernacular of America right now. It's just a saying.

 

Not even close to the right context there.

[Dick Allen]

Here are your replies from the trade thread. Maybe I can read into some that you aren't excited about Davidson, but I don't see anything about the loss of Reed, or that he is more valuable than Davidson. There really isn't much of a commitment from you on the trade one way or another. I left out the posts about other things.

 

The first post is in relation to how everyone likes the trade.

I really wasn't too familiar the day of the trade. The more I read about Davidson, the more the deal didn't seem very good to me. It isn't hindsight. That's too easy. I didn't like this trade before they reported to spring training.

[2nd_city_saint787]

When should the Sox get the go ahead to build a good bullpen?

 

Not a year after losing 99 games.

 

Had they known Abreu was gonna be one of the best players in baseball, Adam Eaton was gonna be one of the better leadoff hitters in baseball, Conor Gillaspie was gonne be in the top 10 in BA, and Lexi was gonna be the "offensive force" he has been this year, then yes, they probably put forth more effort into making the bullpen good.

 

Say Abreu needs a year to adjust, Adam Eaton is the .252/.314/.360 hitter he was last year, Gillaspie is the .245/.305/.390 hitter he was last year, and Lexi is the sun .700 OPS hitter he's been the last 2 years.....What good would that team be with a good bullpen?

Edited August 4, 2014 by scs787

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This is the argument that gets me. "Rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding." WTF does that mean?

 

To you it seems to mean -- put a crappy bullpen out there because you don't have a better plan -- then when the crappy bullpen sinks the season, tell the fans "we were just rebuilding; thanks for spending your good money coming to our games; we didn't really plan on contending this year anyway so it doesn't really matter that our bullpen stinks!!"

I'm confident that's NOT what the Sox brass intended.

 

Instead, they had a plan, it was just a BAD PLAN. It was also a plan that undervalued the difference that a good bullpen can make on a team's W-L record.

 

For both of those reasons, Rick Hahn deserves considerable criticism. It's NO DEFENSE for Hahn to say "rebuilding." And, in fact, if we were able to get Rick Hahn to answer this question honestly, I bet he would agree that he messed up the bullpen this season. I just hope he learns his lesson.

The plans was ,and you seem to be in the minority here, to build a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers . Players that do not usually fluctuate in performance as much as bullpen pieces do and to have enough money left over to cross that bullpen bridge when they got to that point of having that core in place. How long will it have been once the Cubs or Astro's or the Pirates or the Royal get to the playoffs ? How long has it been since the A's became winners for the last few years. Didn't you use the Indian's and Royals as an example of better bullpens ? Do you think they are going to make the playoffs ? Do you think they have a chance to win the World Series this year ? Yes the bullpen was not at the top of the list of priorities. Position players and starting pitching will always be given more priority. When you can come up with a formula for how to determine which bullpen pieces to acquire I will say a bullpen should be a priority. Until then you and Greg and Dick enjoy your w(h)ine.

[GGajewski18]

The plans was ,and you seem to be in the minority here, to build a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers . Players that do not usually fluctuate in performance as much as bullpen pieces do and to have enough money left over to cross that bullpen bridge when they got to that point of having that core in place. How long will it have been once the Cubs or Astro's or the Pirates or the Royal get to the playoffs ? How long has it been since the A's became winners for the last few years. Didn't you use the Indian's and Royals as an example of better bullpens ? Do you think they are going to make the playoffs ? Do you think they have a chance to win the World Series this year ? Yes the bullpen was not at the top of the list of priorities. Position players and starting pitching will always be given more priority. When you can come up with a formula for how to determine which bullpen pieces to acquire I will say a bullpen should be a priority. Until then you and Greg and Dick enjoy your w(h)ine.

 

This x100000

 

Sox arent even done with that. One more starter and a couple more bats and then you can address the bullpen.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This x100000

 

Sox arent even done with that. One more starter and a couple more bats and then you can address the bullpen.

I think they can do it with one quality SP and 1 more bat that is if Avi can put up some good stats next year. Would have to be a LH guy to replace Dunn's .850 OPS against righties or a lesser OPS but still productive offensively and good defensively with a rotating DH from a deep bench. No easy task. I see too may people using Rodon's name for the rotation and that is not a viable option for next year.Can't expect a guy just drafted to come in and be your 3rd or 4th starter a year after being drafted. So someone besides Rodon.

[Vance Law]

This thread blows.

 

You don't spend a ton of money on a bullpen for a rebuilding team. You don't trade away prospects from a rebuilding team to get veteran bullpen arms. Relief pitchers have the most erratic results from year to year of any players. The bullpen as constructed with Jones and Lindstom not getting injured and Belisario and Downs simply pitching similarly to last year and the rest of their careers, the bullpen is just fine.

 

If you are going to blame Rick Hahn for veteran relievers not pitching up to their historical numbers or getting injured then by the same "logic" you also have to credit Hahn for everything Jose Abreu has done. Abreu hasn't hit one home run this year, Hahn hit them.

 

P.S.- Our bullpen is 12th best in the AL. Our starters are also 12th best.

 

Can there be a separate forum on this site just for posters who don't say dumb s***?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Vance Law

[Dick Allen]

This thread blows.

 

You don't spend a ton of money on a bullpen for a rebuilding team. You don't trade away prospects from a rebuilding team to get veteran bullpen arms. Relief pitchers have the most erratic results from year to year of any players. The bullpen as constructed with Jones and Lindstom not getting injured and Belisario and Shields simply pitching similarly to last year and the rest of their careers, the bullpen is just fine.

 

If you are going to blame Rick Hahn for veteran relievers not pitching up to their historical numbers or getting injured then by the same "logic" you also have to credit Hahn for everything Jose Abreu has done. Abreu hasn't hit one home run this year, Hahn hit them.

 

P.S.- Our bullpen is 12th best in the AL. Our starters are also 12th best.

 

Can there be a separate forum on this site just for posters who don't say dumb s***?

Fire Cooper

 

[GGajewski18]

This thread blows.

 

You don't spend a ton of money on a bullpen for a rebuilding team. You don't trade away prospects from a rebuilding team to get veteran bullpen arms. Relief pitchers have the most erratic results from year to year of any players. The bullpen as constructed with Jones and Lindstom not getting injured and Belisario and Shields simply pitching similarly to last year and the rest of their careers, the bullpen is just fine.

 

If you are going to blame Rick Hahn for veteran relievers not pitching up to their historical numbers or getting injured then by the same "logic" you also have to credit Hahn for everything Jose Abreu has done. Abreu hasn't hit one home run this year, Hahn hit them.

 

P.S.- Our bullpen is 12th best in the AL. Our starters are also 12th best.

 

Can there be a separate forum on this site just for posters who don't say dumb s***?

 

Probably last without Sale and Quintana.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Here are your replies from the trade thread. Maybe I can read into some that you aren't excited about Davidson, but I don't see anything about the loss of Reed, or that he is more valuable than Davidson. There really isn't much of a commitment from you on the trade one way or another. I left out the posts about other things.

 

The first post is in relation to how everyone likes the trade.

Are you saying the thread to which Dick is referring to when he said he hated the trade, he didn't actually say he hated the trade ? Say it aint' so. So now he covers his ass by saying it was in a thread before spring training started because when it 1st happened he said he didn't have the facts . How convenient. So you do all that research and now it's another thread where you'd have to do a whole lotta more research to prove he didn't say what he says he said without even knowing the threads topic. All without the search feature ever working on this site.