Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[VAfan]

Here was the original question: "Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?"

 

The answer is obviously YES.

 

To everyone who thinks he "couldn't" have fielded a better bullpen (which is frankly an absurd view) the answer is still YES. And I think Rick Hahn would stand up like a man, take responsibility for the bad choices he made, and agree.

[VAfan]

Dude this isn't Playstation. You can't just leave time paused until you complete all your deals. Of course he WISHES he had a great bullpen, too, but it was very rightfully NOT the top priority this offseason. You are being completely unreasonable expecting him to have fixed literally every part of this team. Marvel at the progress that was made, ALL of it theoretically sustainable, and look forward to more of it to come. I swear sometimes it feels like people follow sports JUST so they can have a scapegoat for something.

 

I'm not a "dude," okay?

[2nd_city_saint787]

Here was the original question: "Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?"

 

The answer is obviously YES.

 

To everyone who thinks he "couldn't" have fielded a better bullpen (which is frankly an absurd view) the answer is still YES. And I think Rick Hahn would stand up like a man, take responsibility for the bad choices he made, and agree.

 

 

You just don't get it.

[SoxAce]

I'm not on here all that much, so I don't know the history, but I think it's total BS to label a guy like Dick Allen a "troll" when he's been on Sox Talk longer than you have.

They have both been here well over 10+ years so I don't think that logic (which I always found b.s. anyways) applies to him. Not like he joined in '11 or something. (Again.. which I find b.s. As who cares when your joined date is) No different than people calling Greg a troll when he's one of the most passionate fans on this board... even if he isn't very knowledgeable about certain things.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Here was the original question: "Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?"

 

The answer is obviously YES.

 

To everyone who thinks he "couldn't" have fielded a better bullpen (which is frankly an absurd view) the answer is still YES. And I think Rick Hahn would stand up like a man, take responsibility for the bad choices he made, and agree.

And most of his supporters never said he's infallible. In another thread I said he failed with potluck signees who could have had trade value but they all underperformed. I've chided SSk2 before about giving up on the season too early . Yes I want the Sox to contend every year. That doesn't mean I can't see the plan the Hahn is doing and I support what he's done and will continue to do . GM's make mistakes , they are human. If that was your point thank you Capt. Obvious I'm pretty sure we know that.

[LDF]

what this thread and this season has, is excitement. I don't know about all of you, but this

reminds me of growing up and a sprite. me and my 2 cuz grew up in an all sCrubs neighborhood.

I agrue and fought with anyone and everyone about the sox whether we were right or not.

 

the same here, everyone is wrong and everyone is right and it doesn't matter to the degree of conversation.

we are defending Hahn and in the same breath we will hang him by his toes for over looking something

on an hindsight.

 

lets all keep this in mind

 

 

 

edit: wow just thinking about it, hanging from the toes must really hurt.

Edited August 5, 2014 by LDF

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Why is building a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers, AND having a plan for a competent bullpen MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE?? I guarantee that's NOT how Rick Hahn sees it. If he did -- if he had your approach -- he SHOULD be fired.

 

The simple fact is the Sox could have fielded a much better bullpen without spending a lot more money. Rick Hahn made some very bad investments, and took far too much risk hoping that Nate Jones could step into the closing role and everyone else would fall in behind him. For that, he deserves the fair criticism I've raised here.

 

Are you enjoying the Sox 2014 season????

I sure the hell am enjoying the season. Before it started I remember some poster wondering if he should get the Baseball package on DirecTV . I encouraged him to do so to watch the young core watch Abreu watch Sale watch Eaton and watch Avi. It'll be a delight and a disaster but very entertaining. That's how it is every year. Sometimes the delights outweigh the disasters and but most times the disasters outweigh the delights since nearly every season the Sox go home not winning the World Series.

Edited August 5, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

Here was the original question: "Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?"

 

The answer is obviously YES.

 

To everyone who thinks he "couldn't" have fielded a better bullpen (which is frankly an absurd view) the answer is still YES. And I think Rick Hahn would stand up like a man, take responsibility for the bad choices he made, and agree.

 

The bullpen is the pitchers fault first and foremost.

[VAfan]

And most of his supporters never said he's infallible. In another thread I said he failed with potluck signees who could have had trade value but they all underperformed. I've chided SSk2 before about giving up on the season too early . Yes I want the Sox to contend every year. That doesn't mean I can't see the plan the Hahn is doing and I support what he's done and will continue to do . GM's make mistakes , they are human. If that was your point thank you Capt. Obvious I'm pretty sure we know that.

 

Love the backtrack. Nice!

[greg775]

The plans was ,and you seem to be in the minority here, to build a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers . Players that do not usually fluctuate in performance as much as bullpen pieces do and to have enough money left over to cross that bullpen bridge when they got to that point of having that core in place. How long will it have been once the Cubs or Astro's or the Pirates or the Royal get to the playoffs ? How long has it been since the A's became winners for the last few years. Didn't you use the Indian's and Royals as an example of better bullpens ? Do you think they are going to make the playoffs ? Do you think they have a chance to win the World Series this year ? Yes the bullpen was not at the top of the list of priorities. Position players and starting pitching will always be given more priority. When you can come up with a formula for how to determine which bullpen pieces to acquire I will say a bullpen should be a priority. Until then you and Greg and Dick enjoy your w(h)ine.

What are u guys talking about? Hahn deserves blame because he did acquire some new relievers in an attempt to fix the bullpen and these pitchers SUCK. Not to mention a horrid starter in Paulino. A fifth grader could tell you that guy is trash. Not hyperbole. I about puked when I heard we were putting him in the rotation, but I digress.

Hahn did acquire relievers. So does that mean he knew those relievers sucked? Obviously not. He thought they were good. So please give Hahn some blame here for this pathetic bullpen.

Overall do I still want Hahn as GM? Yes of course. Am I mad as hell at this bad bullpen ... of course. It cost the Sox a possible wildcard. Why is that whining?

Edited August 5, 2014 by greg775

[2nd_city_saint787]

What are u guys talking about? Hahn deserves blame because he did acquire some new relievers in an attempt to fix the bullpen and these pitchers SUCK. Not to mention a horrid starter in Paulino. A fifth grader could tell you that guy is trash. Not hyperbole. I about puked when I heard we were putting him in the rotation, but I digress.

Hahn did acquire relievers. So does that mean he knew those relievers sucked? Obviously not. He thought they were good. So please give Hahn some blame here for this pathetic bullpen.

Overall do I still want Hahn as GM? Yes of course. Am I mad as hell at this bad bullpen ... of course. It cost the Sox a possible wildcard. Why is that whining?

 

Again, Belly has been good in 3 of his 4 years at the big league level and Downs has been one of the better LH relievers in the game for years before now. Old school and advanced stats both say that. How is he supposed to know ahead of time that they were gonna fail miserably.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Love the backtrack. Nice!

Wasn't a backtrack. Everything I said Ive said before. Stating Hahn is human isn't some big revelation.

[greg775]

Again, Belly has been good in 3 of his 4 years at the big league level and Downs has been one of the better LH relievers in the game for years before now. Old school and advanced stats both say that. How is he supposed to know ahead of time that they were gonna fail miserably.

Some posters are saying the bullpen is the last to be fixed. My point is he did address the bullpen during this rebuild. It's like some are saying you should fix the everyday lineup first, then the bullpen. He did also try to fix the bullpen, but failed miserably. I'm just perplexed some people think he has yet to address the bullpen. He has ... he's just failed at it so far.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Some posters are saying the bullpen is the last to be fixed. My point is he did address the bullpen during this rebuild. It's like some are saying you should fix the everyday lineup first, then the bullpen. He did also try to fix the bullpen, but failed miserably. I'm just perplexed some people think he has yet to address the bullpen. He has ... he's just failed at it so far.

 

Ya know what, in a way, you are correct. He didn't really build it from a depth perspective though. He did indeed throw some money at the bullpen though.

 

He didn't fail though, the players did. He brought in 2 guys that have been quality guys for years now. With out a crystal ball how can you envision those 2 guys sucking? Same with the Jones/Lindstrom going down.

 

He built a bullpen that if all goes right would be a solid unit. Nothing went right because the players didn't execute.

[chitownsportsfan]

Some posters are saying the bullpen is the last to be fixed. My point is he did address the bullpen during this rebuild. It's like some are saying you should fix the everyday lineup first, then the bullpen. He did also try to fix the bullpen, but failed miserably. I'm just perplexed some people think he has yet to address the bullpen. He has ... he's just failed at it so far.

 

Chicago was 20th in payroll to open the year, they are probably around 22nd now. They weren't going to spend 20 million to fix it (see stupid signings like Joe Nathan among others) so they brought in high variance guys in hopes some of them panned out. Then best of them got injured. Jones and Lindstrom were the clear best coming into the year and they have barely pitched.

 

So bad luck with injuries plus having bigger fish to fry while trying to cut long term salary (hopefully for use the next two years) meant the bullpen just wasn't a priority, and that was correct thinking IMO.

 

Imagine in some hypothetical scenairo the Sox go and sign two 2.0 WAR relievers for 10 million for 3 years each, so 60 million on the table for an elite closer and solid setup guy. That gets them what, to 84 wins? 85? And for what? All the payroll you just cut is now going to relievers while you have fairly large weaknesses at C, 2B, LF and SP.

 

Not good.

 

It was a safe, smart plan that cost the team a few games in an otherwise solid rebuilding year. If the bullpen sucks in 2016 when the everyday players are solid and the Sox are 7th in payroll, then really b**** it up.

Edited August 5, 2014 by chitownsportsfan

[2nd_city_saint787]

Simply put he didn't put out enough "horses" to cover up the lose of 2 key bullpen pieces and that's something you should expect from a team that just lost 99 games.

 

And really, most teams in baseball don't have the horses to cover losing 2 key guys.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Simply put he didn't put out enough "horses" to cover up the lose of 2 key bullpen pieces and that's something you should expect from a team that just lost 99 games.

 

And really, most teams in baseball don't have the horses to cover losing 2 key guys.

Shouldn't ?

[BaconOnAStick]

I give credit to Hahn for rebuilding the lineup 2 years faster than could be reasonably expected, locking up two ace lefthanders and stocking the system with a trio of young arms (Danish, Montas, Rodon) that all project, for now, as starters. The quality of work he did in so quickly improving this team, where our starters and lineup are exceeding all reasonable expectations, exposed Hahn's treating the bullpen as an afterthought this year. Had he not done such a great job in other areas the bullpen wouldn't be an issue, or at least to the extent it is now.

 

So it's whatever. The team he built has been so good that now his approach has come back around to bite him. If we go into 2015 only needing a few peripheral moves in the lineup, one more starter and a rebuilt bullpen to be serious playoff contenders the work he's done already is incredible.

[Eminor3rd]

Some posters are saying the bullpen is the last to be fixed. My point is he did address the bullpen during this rebuild. It's like some are saying you should fix the everyday lineup first, then the bullpen. He did also try to fix the bullpen, but failed miserably. I'm just perplexed some people think he has yet to address the bullpen. He has ... he's just failed at it so far.

 

Right greg, but he COULD have spent a lot more time, money, and trade chips on it to give it a better shot, but doing so would have been completely irresponsible because expensive bullpens are a waste of resources on bad teams. And what we had at the time was a BAD team with some new acquisitions that would hopefully work out. Now that most of those acquisitions have worked out, we have the core of a decent team, we have enough information to start pushing more chips into the middle.

 

Those of you that are advocating a complete hail mary every year need to realize that that very rarely ever works out and that the cost of missing is that you end up like the Phillies, Cubs, or Astros. Hahn's plan is to be patient and do this right, and we're all going to be very happy about it pretty soon.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Right greg, but he COULD have spent a lot more time, money, and trade chips on it to give it a better shot, but doing so would have been completely irresponsible because expensive bullpens are a waste of resources on bad teams. And what we had at the time was a BAD team with some new acquisitions that would hopefully work out. Now that most of those acquisitions have worked out, we have the core of a decent team, we have enough information to start pushing more chips into the middle.

 

Those of you that are advocating a complete hail mary every year need to realize that that very rarely ever works out and that the cost of missing is that you end up like the Phillies, Cubs, or Astros. Hahn's plan is to be patient and do this right, and we're all going to be very happy about it pretty soon.

You know Eminor these people we're debating this with are not simpletons they understand the concept that rebuilding takes patience and time. Did I want more spent coming into the season ? I sure did. I wanted Ellsbury ,but when I saw what he signed for I wasn't upset the Sox didn't get him Did Hahn want more? He sure did, he wanted Tanaka. Had they got Tanaka would they have spent a bit more on the bullpen afterwards ? I don't know .We will never know.

 

But Tanaka and Ellbury are both the kind of contracts you're speaking of that screw things up for teams. Unfortunately that's the price you have to pay now in the game. The agents and the deep pockets owners have made sure its the rich who will always get richer and to get a superstar and really even just good players you have to pay for their declining years .Teams that try and do it another way often have long dry spells of failure like you mention. The Cubs ,Astros, Royals . Tampa Bay has had some success with keeping costs down and so has Oakland recently. Marlins won 2 WS (1997 and 2003) then completely and utterly destroyed their teams. Pirates can never get anything accomplished because they just don't have the cash flow coming in.

 

The Sox ? Well attendance could be better, they don't have a huge TV contract bringing in huge amounts of cash like the Yankees, Boston, Seattle or the Dodgers.They don't have an ownership group that will spend irresponsibly like the Phillies and Detroit. There are 2 teams in the city and of the 2 the Sox are the ugly stepchild. The fans just won't show up because we're the lovable losers . Our fans demand a winner , screw fiscal responsibility and the rest of those lame excuses about rebuilding. Screw the fact that bullpen pieces are rarely considered core pieces and their performances fluctuate greatly from year to year. or that sometimes things can blow up in your face like injuries and unexpected bad years . Screw the fact Hahn just got Sale and Q and now Abreu it seems under great to pretty good contracts. Screw his acquisitions of Eaton and getting Gillaspie for practically nothing. Yet ,as evidenced in this thread, they throw tantrums like whiny little brats when they can't have it all every year. Waaa it's all Hahn's fault for trading Addison Reed . My suggestion : go be Red Sox or Yankees, Dodger fans if you expect every last dime to be spent every damn year. Hahn can't say that but I can.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

You know Eminor these people we're debating this with are not simpletons they understand the concept that rebuilding takes patience and time. Did I want more spent coming into the season ? I sure did. I wanted Ellsbury ,but when I saw what he signed for I wasn't upset the Sox didn't get him Did Hahn want more? He sure did, he wanted Tanaka. Had they got Tanaka would they have spent a bit more on the bullpen afterwards ? I don't know .We will never know.

 

But Tanaka and Ellbury are both the kind of contracts you're speaking of that screw things up for teams. Unfortunately that's the price you have to pay now in the game. The agents and the deep pockets owners have made sure its the rich who will always get richer and to get a superstar and really even just good players you have to pay for their declining years .Teams that try and do it another way often have long dry spells of failure like you mention. The Cubs ,Astros, Royals . Tampa Bay has had some success with keeping costs down and so has Oakland recently. Marlins won 2 WS (1997 and 2003) then completely and utterly destroyed their teams. Pirates can never get anything accomplished because they just don't have the cash flow coming in.

 

The Sox ? Well attendance could be better, they don't have a huge TV contract bringing in huge amounts of cash like the Yankees, Boston, Seattle or the Dodgers.They don't have an ownership group that will spend irresponsibly like the Phillies and Detroit. There are 2 teams in the city and of the 2 the Sox are the ugly stepchild. The fans just won't show up because we're the lovable losers . Our fans demand a winner , screw fiscal responsibility and the rest of those lame excuses about rebuilding. Screw the fact that bullpen pieces are rarely considered core pieces and their performances fluctuate greatly from year to year. or that sometimes things can blow up in your face like injuries and unexpected bad years . Screw the fact Hahn just got Sale and Q and now Abreu it seems under great to pretty good contracts. Screw his acquisitions of Eaton and getting Gillaspie for practically nothing. Yet ,as evidenced in this thread, they throw tantrums like whiny little brats when they can't have it all every year. Waaa it's all Hahn's fault for trading Addison Reed . My suggestion : go be Red Sox or Yankees, Dodger fans if you expect every last dime to be spent every damn year. Hahn can't say that but I can.

 

I'm not calling them simpletons or anything similar, but when threads like these pop-up, I really DO question whether a lot of people here understand the plan. 10 months ago, at the end of the most excruciating Sox season I've ever experienced, 95% of our posters rightfully (IMO) wanted to clean house. Now halfway through the FIRST season of this, after some frankly incredible strides in the "cleaning house" plan having taken place, we're ripping baseball operations for not having enough bullpen depth to compete? You've got to be kidding me.

 

[witesoxfan]

Belisario is pitching very similiar to last year. I tend to ignore era and w/l for relievers. Last year batters hit .274 off him and this year it is .284. Last year his WHIP was 1.47 and it is 1.38 this year. That is because his walks are down this year. He was mediocre last year so I am not sure what you expected this year. Jones had mediocre numbers as well last year. Lindstom has a career .274 BA against him. That is poor for a reliver.

 

Please explain to me how Nate Jones was mediocre last year.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I'm not calling them simpletons or anything similar, but when threads like these pop-up, I really DO question whether a lot of people here understand the plan. 10 months ago, at the end of the most excruciating Sox season I've ever experienced, 95% of our posters rightfully (IMO) wanted to clean house. Now halfway through the FIRST season of this, after some frankly incredible strides in the "cleaning house" plan having taken place, we're ripping baseball operations for not having enough bullpen depth to compete? You've got to be kidding me.

Oh I know you aren't calling them simpletons its just that me and you and many others are coming at them from all directions about the plan and myriad other reasons not to get all bent out of shape about the pen and VA fan is ecstatic I said Yea Hahn's human he didn't throw piles of cash at the pen and fix everything about the team all in one year. I backed off from trying to explain it and threw my hands up and said OK you want someone to say Hahn some how has failed and what he put in place for a bullpen didnt work out ? Fine . Any plan to get some tradeable pieces also failed . Yet s*** happens when you have a plan to fix things , no plan can go right 100% of the time.

 

No they aren't simpletons they are just whiny brats expecting every facet of a human beings' plan to go perfectly and make us contenders every year and focusing on the bad to cry about it instead of the strides towards respectability the Sox have made.

[2nd_city_saint787]

People always say that FIP is "A better indicator of future success", so with that said here is look at the bullpen Hahn built...Kinda. (

 

Closer- Nate Jones- 2.64

Matt Lindstrom- 3.15

Scott Downs- 3.09

Ronald Belisario- 3.64

Daniel Webb- 2.34

Jake Petricka- 3.72

 

Now I'm not sure that the whole future success thing should really be used on a year to to year basis, but this shows you just how "good" the guys he brought together were last year.

 

Those guys duplicate those numbers this year, which I'm sure Hahn was hoping for, then the bullpen is fine.

 

Greg, VA, and whoever else who is arguing otherwise, please, explain how Rick Hahn is supposed to know these guys were gonna fail. Their regular ERA and FIP were good, so what else can he go off of? If you can't can't come up with a reason, then why blame Hahn?

 

 

[Dick Allen]

People always say that FIP is "A better indicator of future success", so with that said here is look at the bullpen Hahn built...Kinda. (

 

Closer- Nate Jones- 2.64

Matt Lindstrom- 3.15

Scott Downs- 3.09

Ronald Belisario- 3.64

Daniel Webb- 2.34

Jake Petricka- 3.72

 

Now I'm not sure that the whole future success thing should really be used on a year to to year basis, but this shows you just how "good" the guys he brought together were last year.

 

Those guys duplicate those numbers this year, which I'm sure Hahn was hoping for, then the bullpen is fine.

 

Greg, VA, and whoever else who is arguing otherwise, please, explain how Rick Hahn is supposed to know these guys were gonna fail. Their regular ERA and FIP were good, so what else can he go off of? If you can't can't come up with a reason, then why blame Hahn?

If FIP is an indicator of future success, it appears it needs a bit of fine tuning.