Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[Eminor3rd]

I am going to try to play devils. advocate, maybe what may have thrown a monkey wrench in the hole

plan was several factors. Jose A being as good as he is, very good performance by a hand full of starters

including Adam E, and pride in themselves.

 

this team is doing well above what many thought they would do, including me. that is way I am excited for

2015 team and what other pieces Hahn would bring in.

 

Exactly. The team was SUPPOSED to have no shot at winning. The fact that a bunch of stuff went better than expected should make us HAPPY, not make us b**** about not having an elite bullpen. Let's not be spoiled children. This could be a fun offseason and a fun 2015.

[southsider2k5]

Exactly. The team was SUPPOSED to have no shot at winning. The fact that a bunch of stuff went better than expected should make us HAPPY, not make us b**** about not having an elite bullpen. Let's not be spoiled children. This could be a fun offseason and a fun 2015.

 

I think I was one of the most optimistic people on this team, and for the most part, the biggest pieces of the rebuild have gone incredibly well if you look back to where we were 14 months ago.

 

-We have our powerhitting star 1B.

-We have a very solid starting 3B

-We have both a leadoff hitter and CF, who is also a pretty darned good defender.

-The farm system is deeper than it has been in what... a decade? A year ago Carlos Rodon was a wet dream. Now he headlines our system.

-Sale is still Sale, Quintana is still the feathery serpent, and Cooper can still create starting pitchers out of thin air.

-This has been a super unusual injury year, and that has hampered a lot of our players and progress.

 

Looking at the big picture, the state of the union is positive. Is it perfect? Obviously not, but I know that no one expected a title team in a year, or probably even two. This organization is moving in the right direction. I don't think they are wasting too much time on the minutia of things, and have a plan that they are sticking to. The fans might not like it, or even understand it, but so far things are going about as well as can be expected after having a 63 win team last year.

 

I'm guessing another year down the road we can look back and see many other problems solved.

[Butter Parque]

Exactly. The team was SUPPOSED to have no shot at winning. The fact that a bunch of stuff went better than expected should make us HAPPY, not make us b**** about not having an elite bullpen. Let's not be spoiled children. This could be a fun offseason and a fun 2015.

 

I expect us to be in contention for a WC until August/September next season. 2016 is when I'm expecting this team to be considered a favorite for the division under Hahn's plan. Just imagine an April 2016 Rotation featuring Sale, Quintana, Rodon. That alone makes you a contender. factor in guys like Abreu, Eaton, Avi, Semien, Micah. We have shot in the next few years if all goes according to plan, but God it sucks to be pining for it already.

[greg775]

-We have our powerhitting star 1B.

-We have a very solid starting 3B

-We have both a leadoff hitter and CF, who is also a pretty darned good defender.

-The farm system is deeper than it has been in what... a decade? A year ago Carlos Rodon was a wet dream. Now he headlines our system.

-Sale is still Sale, Quintana is still the feathery serpent, and Cooper can still create starting pitchers out of thin air.

-This has been a super unusual injury year, and that has hampered a lot of our players and progress.

 

Looking at the big picture, the state of the union is positive. Is it perfect? Obviously not, but I know that no one expected a title team in a year, or probably even two. This organization is moving in the right direction.

Obviously things are a little bit better, but let's see the last six weeks play out. I kind of disagree.

1B-Yes you are right. We have a star.

3B-Maybe. Unfortunately because of Gillaspie's defense, the verdict is still out. He has improved hitting wise. Still not a lot of RBIs.

CF - Yes he's good, but LF and RF are still question marks.

Farm system - I thought all our outfield candidates were busts. People have been blasting Semien as being a bust as far as being a future starter. What down there is so great besides Rodon? Is Micah very good or not?

Most importantly - Pitching. Sale and Q are the only ultra reliable starters. Rodon is the next ace type hopefully. And the defense is projected as remaining lousy with A. Garcia coming back and Tank still out leftfielder with a sieve at third base. Who replaces Lexi?

 

My point is, if the Sox continue to tank and finish about 15 below .500 is the optimism still there? I think Fathom's recent post is more accurate about having 5-6 very good players and the rest below average.

Edited August 8, 2014 by greg775

[Eminor3rd]

Obviously things are a little bit better, but let's see the last six weeks play out. I kind of disagree.

1B-Yes you are right. We have a star.

3B-Maybe. Unfortunately because of Gillaspie's defense, the verdict is still out. He has improved hitting wise. Still not a lot of RBIs.

CF - Yes he's good, but LF and RF are still question marks.

Farm system - I thought all our outfield candidates were busts. People have been blasting Semien as being a bust as far as being a future starter. What down there is so great besides Rodon? Is Micah very good or not?

Most importantly - Pitching. Sale and Q are the only ultra reliable starters. Rodon is the next ace type hopefully. And the defense is projected as remaining lousy with A. Garcia coming back and Tank still out leftfielder with a sieve at third base. Who replaces Lexi?

 

My point is, if the Sox continue to tank and finish about 15 below .500 is the optimism still there? I think Fathom's recent post is more accurate about having 5-6 very good players and the rest below average.

 

Fangraphs projects the Sox to finish with 76 wins, and that feels about right to me. It also feels like a really awesome improvement over 63 the year previous, and it comes with a ton of blown bullpen games that we can expect to disappear if we can even have an average one next year.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Obviously things are a little bit better, but let's see the last six weeks play out. I kind of disagree.

1B-Yes you are right. We have a star.

3B-Maybe. Unfortunately because of Gillaspie's defense, the verdict is still out. He has improved hitting wise. Still not a lot of RBIs.

CF - Yes he's good, but LF and RF are still question marks.

Farm system - I thought all our outfield candidates were busts. People have been blasting Semien as being a bust as far as being a future starter. What down there is so great besides Rodon? Is Micah very good or not?

Most importantly - Pitching. Sale and Q are the only ultra reliable starters. Rodon is the next ace type hopefully. And the defense is projected as remaining lousy with A. Garcia coming back and Tank still out leftfielder with a sieve at third base. Who replaces Lexi?

 

My point is, if the Sox continue to tank and finish about 15 below .500 is the optimism still there? I think Fathom's recent post is more accurate about having 5-6 very good players and the rest below average.

 

FutureSox just released a great Top 25 list that can be found if you go to the main page of this site. It does require reading though.

[witesoxfan]

Obviously things are a little bit better, but let's see the last six weeks play out. I kind of disagree.

1B-Yes you are right. We have a star.

3B-Maybe. Unfortunately because of Gillaspie's defense, the verdict is still out. He has improved hitting wise. Still not a lot of RBIs.

CF - Yes he's good, but LF and RF are still question marks.

Farm system - I thought all our outfield candidates were busts. People have been blasting Semien as being a bust as far as being a future starter. What down there is so great besides Rodon? Is Micah very good or not?

Most importantly - Pitching. Sale and Q are the only ultra reliable starters. Rodon is the next ace type hopefully. And the defense is projected as remaining lousy with A. Garcia coming back and Tank still out leftfielder with a sieve at third base. Who replaces Lexi?

 

My point is, if the Sox continue to tank and finish about 15 below .500 is the optimism still there? I think Fathom's recent post is more accurate about having 5-6 very good players and the rest below average.

 

Well, unless a game is cancelled, it's impossible to finish 15 below .500, it'll either be 14 or 16 under.

 

They would still have to go 18-28 or 19-27, which is possible, but with how this team has played all year, I don't think that's very likely.

[southsider2k5]

Obviously things are a little bit better, but let's see the last six weeks play out. I kind of disagree.

1B-Yes you are right. We have a star.

3B-Maybe. Unfortunately because of Gillaspie's defense, the verdict is still out. He has improved hitting wise. Still not a lot of RBIs.

CF - Yes he's good, but LF and RF are still question marks.

Farm system - I thought all our outfield candidates were busts. People have been blasting Semien as being a bust as far as being a future starter. What down there is so great besides Rodon? Is Micah very good or not?

Most importantly - Pitching. Sale and Q are the only ultra reliable starters. Rodon is the next ace type hopefully. And the defense is projected as remaining lousy with A. Garcia coming back and Tank still out leftfielder with a sieve at third base. Who replaces Lexi?

 

My point is, if the Sox continue to tank and finish about 15 below .500 is the optimism still there? I think Fathom's recent post is more accurate about having 5-6 very good players and the rest below average.

 

Well no kidding there is still work to do. This is a rebuild. No one said it was all done. This is more to the ignorant idea that someone Hahn failed this year.

[caulfield12]

I think I was one of the most optimistic people on this team, and for the most part, the biggest pieces of the rebuild have gone incredibly well if you look back to where we were 14 months ago.

 

-We have our powerhitting star 1B.With no protection.

-We have a very solid starting 3B But can he field well enough and repeat this year offensively?

-We have both a leadoff hitter and CF, who is also a pretty darned good defender. Can he stay healthy and play in 150 games?

-The farm system is deeper than it has been in what... a decade? A year ago Carlos Rodon was a wet dream. Now he headlines our system.But it's lacking in future All-Star/impact talent, other than Anderson, Hawkins, Rodon and MAYBE Montas

-Sale is still Sale, Quintana is still the feathery serpent, and Cooper can still create starting pitchers out of thin air.Except Paulino and most random relievers rejected by other teams.

-This has been a super unusual injury year, and that has hampered a lot of our players and progress.

 

Looking at the big picture, the state of the union is positive. Is it perfect? Obviously not, but I know that no one expected a title team in a year, or probably even two. This organization is moving in the right direction. I don't think they are wasting too much time on the minutia of things, and have a plan that they are sticking to. The fans might not like it, or even understand it, but so far things are going about as well as can be expected after having a 63 win team last year.

 

I'm guessing another year down the road we can look back and see many other problems solved.

 

 

Greg has a good point about the defense. Other than Ramirez and Eaton, we don't have any above-average defenders. Arguably, we'll be getting worse next year with Avisail Garcia and possibly replacing Alexei Ramirez. That's not exactly a recipe for success when you're building a team around pitching and just enough power to be middle of the pack.

 

I noticed you didn't mention Viciedo or Flowers. There's good reason to play pro's and con's with both those guys.

 

One positive is that Beckham and Dunn will be gone and we can finally move on, along with Konerko's retirement. The page can finally be turned.

 

Plus, we have increasing reason to be concerned about John Danks' contract.

Edited August 8, 2014 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Greg has a good point about the defense. Other than Ramirez and Eaton, we don't have any above-average defenders. Arguably, we'll be getting worse next year with Avisail Garcia and possibly replacing Alexei Ramirez. That's not exactly a recipe for success when you're building a team around pitching and just enough power to be middle of the pack.

 

I noticed you didn't mention Viciedo or Flowers. There's good reason to play pro's and con's with both those guys.

 

One positive is that Beckham and Dunn will be gone and we can finally move on, along with Konerko's retirement. The page can finally be turned.

 

Plus, we have increasing reason to be concerned about John Danks' contract.

 

As I said, it isn't perfect. The idea that a full rebuild could be done in less than one year is lunacy. Big picture, things are better, and the organization is moving forward. It is waste of time to still be complaining about details.

[caulfield12]

As I said, it isn't perfect. The idea that a full rebuild could be done in less than one year is lunacy. Big picture, things are better, and the organization is moving forward. It is waste of time to still be complaining about details.

 

That's what White Sox fans do.

 

Otherwise, we would be Cubs' fans.

 

Bruce Levine was on the Score this morning, and he was seriously floating the idea out there that Reinsdorf only cares about the team not losing money/profitability for the owners/board of directors, and that lower payrolls and the state/local subsidies that kick into place when the attendance sinks to below 1.5 million (or maybe it's 1.2-1.25 million, something like that) will give the Sox a lot less incentive to make big moves in the free agency market....sort of saying they're going to still be profitable as the 28th team in attendance, and can follow the Loria/Marlins/Expos blueprint.

Edited August 8, 2014 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

That's what White Sox fans do.

 

Otherwise, we would be Cubs' fans.

 

Bruce Levine was on the Score this morning, and he was seriously floating the idea out there that Reinsdorf only cares about the team not losing money/profitability for the owners/board of directors, and that lower payrolls and the state/local subsidies that kick into place when the attendance sinks to below 1.5 million (or maybe it's 1.2-1.25 million, something like that) will give the Sox a lot less incentive to make big moves in the free agency market....sort of saying they're going to still be profitable as the 28th team in attendance, and can follow the Loria/Marlins/Expos blueprint.

 

Except this team lost money last year. Great job Bruce.

[caulfield12]

Except this team lost money last year. Great job Bruce.

 

 

I think he was referring to the fact that Reinsdorf mentioned they weren't going to be losing money this season, no matter what happened with attendance and sponsorship revenues.

[2nd_city_saint787]

That's what White Sox fans do.

 

Otherwise, we would be Cubs' fans.

 

Bruce Levine was on the Score this morning, and he was seriously floating the idea out there that Reinsdorf only cares about the team not losing money/profitability for the owners/board of directors, and that lower payrolls and the state/local subsidies that kick into place when the attendance sinks to below 1.5 million (or maybe it's 1.2-1.25 million, something like that) will give the Sox a lot less incentive to make big moves in the free agency market....sort of saying they're going to still be profitable as the 28th team in attendance, and can follow the Loria/Marlins/Expos blueprint.

 

Wow, either you misinterpreted that or Bruce is an idiot.

 

Would a team that "Doesn't care about winning" outbid everyone on Jose Abreu and be in on Tanaka? That sure doesn't sound like a team just wanting to make money.

 

The plan is, and always has been to build a young core. Once they think that young core is good enough to succeed then we might see some higher price vets in to mix in with those young guys. That might come next year or perhaps 2016 might be a bit more realistic.

 

[kitekrazy]

Wow, either you misinterpreted that or Bruce is an idiot.

 

Would a team that "Doesn't care about winning" outbid everyone on Jose Abreu and be in on Tanaka? That sure doesn't sound like a team just wanting to make money.

 

The plan is, and always has been to build a young core. Once they think that young core is good enough to succeed then we might see some higher price vets in to mix in with those young guys. That might come next year or perhaps 2016 might be a bit more realistic.

 

Most teams say that. I'm glad they lost out on Tanaka. Sometimes an Asian player's success is not long lived like Ichiro. MLB must a real grind compared to Japan.

 

[caulfield12]

Most teams say that. I'm glad they lost out on Tanaka. Sometimes an Asian player's success is not long lived like Ichiro. MLB must a real grind compared to Japan.

 

I would say it's actually the opposite.

 

[witesoxfan]

I would say it's actually the opposite.

 

Why would you say that?

[caulfield12]

Why would you say that?

 

 

Because they have 10X the amount of practices between games, and preseason and off-season training.

 

Almost all of their pitchers throw a lot more than MLB pitchers do between starts, and pitch counts of 125-175 in actual games aren't so unusual.

 

They drill and drill and drill on fundamentals and team-based drills, calisthenics, it's almost like military training over there the way they approach it.

 

MLB players have a VERY cushy life comparatively, even if the regular season is longer.

[witesoxfan]

Because they have 10X the amount of practices between games, and preseason and off-season training.

 

Almost all of their pitchers throw a lot more than MLB pitchers do between starts, and pitch counts of 125-175 in actual games aren't so unusual.

 

They drill and drill and drill on fundamentals and team-based drills, calisthenics, it's almost like military training over there the way they approach it.

 

MLB players have a VERY cushy life comparatively, even if the regular season is longer.

 

The travel is a hell of a lot less extensive and they don't play nearly as aggressively either.

 

I just have a hard time believing that the Japanese circuit is more physically demanding than the major leagues.

[southsider2k5]

The travel is a hell of a lot less extensive and they don't play nearly as aggressively either.

 

I just have a hard time believing that the Japanese circuit is more physically demanding than the major leagues.

 

Pitchers also pitch every 7 days there.

[VAfan]

Exactly. The team was SUPPOSED to have no shot at winning. The fact that a bunch of stuff went better than expected should make us HAPPY, not make us b**** about not having an elite bullpen. Let's not be spoiled children. This could be a fun offseason and a fun 2015.

 

This is the point that I think is TOTAL BS!! The team was "SUPPOSED" to lose in 2014??

 

If Rick Hahn told Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams that "I HAVE NO PLAN ON WINNING IN 2014, AND IN FACT, MY PLAN IS TO CONTINUE LOSING IN 2014" what do you think they would have said? Like any good boss, they would have said -- come back to me when you have a better plan.

 

You may sit here as a casual fan and spin out 5 years plans and hypothetical trades, and fantasize in August 2014 about next year's lineup, but I GUARANTEE you that's not what Rick Hahn's job is. That's not the reality of running the Chicago White Sox.

 

In the real world, the Chicago White Sox have to try to compete every year, even if they are also rebuilding to strengthen their club for the future. They aren't the Cubs, who get a perennial pass and adoration from clueless fans regardless of the crappy teams they put on the field.

 

So, Rick Hahn did a lot of things this offseason to both rebuild the team, and get it to compete for a playoff spot in 2014. If he didn't care about the latter, there are a lot of things he wouldn't have done, because they have no future with the club.

 

Why keep Adam Dunn? Why not just dump him for as much salary relief as you can get?

Why keep De Aza? He's also got no long term future, and is the highest paid outfielder on the team, as a BACKUP!

Why re-sign Paul Konerko for another year? He's going to retire at year's end.

Why dump money into signing Downs and Bellisario and Paulino? None of these guys could be expected to last even if they pitched as well as they had in the past.

Why not unload John Danks at the trade deadline for salary relief, even if you get nothing back? More money to spend in the future.

Why is Gordon Beckham still here?

 

You might be "HAPPY" about a Sox team that is going to miss the playoffs again, and is sinking like a rock now that the complete collapse of the bullpen has sapped any remaining chances the team had of making a late season run.

 

I see a team that had tremendous POTENTIAL, that could have made the playoffs in 2014 with a better bullpen plan and a better manager. When that potential is undermined and lost, I'm disappointed. And I think the guy who put the plan together deserves to be criticized, because with a better plan, the team could have made a run. As I said earlier, I think Rick Hahn would AGREE. I'm guessing he's learned a lot from the mistakes he's made, and isn't planning on repeating them.

[Steve9347]

Sox need to claim up Frieri.

[southsider2k5]

This is the point that I think is TOTAL BS!! The team was "SUPPOSED" to lose in 2014??

 

If Rick Hahn told Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams that "I HAVE NO PLAN ON WINNING IN 2014, AND IN FACT, MY PLAN IS TO CONTINUE LOSING IN 2014" what do you think they would have said? Like any good boss, they would have said -- come back to me when you have a better plan.

 

You may sit here as a casual fan and spin out 5 years plans and hypothetical trades, and fantasize in August 2014 about next year's lineup, but I GUARANTEE you that's not what Rick Hahn's job is. That's not the reality of running the Chicago White Sox.

 

In the real world, the Chicago White Sox have to try to compete every year, even if they are also rebuilding to strengthen their club for the future. They aren't the Cubs, who get a perennial pass and adoration from clueless fans regardless of the crappy teams they put on the field.

 

So, Rick Hahn did a lot of things this offseason to both rebuild the team, and get it to compete for a playoff spot in 2014. If he didn't care about the latter, there are a lot of things he wouldn't have done, because they have no future with the club.

 

Why keep Adam Dunn? Why not just dump him for as much salary relief as you can get?

Why keep De Aza? He's also got no long term future, and is the highest paid outfielder on the team, as a BACKUP!

Why re-sign Paul Konerko for another year? He's going to retire at year's end.

Why dump money into signing Downs and Bellisario and Paulino? None of these guys could be expected to last even if they pitched as well as they had in the past.

Why not unload John Danks at the trade deadline for salary relief, even if you get nothing back? More money to spend in the future.

Why is Gordon Beckham still here?

 

You might be "HAPPY" about a Sox team that is going to miss the playoffs again, and is sinking like a rock now that the complete collapse of the bullpen has sapped any remaining chances the team had of making a late season run.

 

I see a team that had tremendous POTENTIAL, that could have made the playoffs in 2014 with a better bullpen plan and a better manager. When that potential is undermined and lost, I'm disappointed. And I think the guy who put the plan together deserves to be criticized, because with a better plan, the team could have made a run. As I said earlier, I think Rick Hahn would AGREE. I'm guessing he's learned a lot from the mistakes he's made, and isn't planning on repeating them.

 

Um. Yes. That was exactly the plan for 2014. This team had .500 potential, maybe a few games over if things went mostly right.

[Soxfest]

That's what White Sox fans do.

 

Otherwise, we would be Cubs' fans.

 

Bruce Levine was on the Score this morning, and he was seriously floating the idea out there that Reinsdorf only cares about the team not losing money/profitability for the owners/board of directors, and that lower payrolls and the state/local subsidies that kick into place when the attendance sinks to below 1.5 million (or maybe it's 1.2-1.25 million, something like that) will give the Sox a lot less incentive to make big moves in the free agency market....sort of saying they're going to still be profitable as the 28th team in attendance, and can follow the Loria/Marlins/Expos blueprint.

When are people going to realize Bruce is 100% pro Cub and anti White Sox. Everything Cubs do is wonderful and when Sox make a move it is just ok at best. When he was at ESPN 1000 the bias on his daily reports were unreal.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Soxfest

[Dick Allen]

When are people going to realize Bruce is 100% pro Cub and anti White Sox. Everything Cubs do is wonderful and when Sox make a move it is just ok at best. When he was at ESPN 1000 the bias on his daily reports were unreal.

That is why JR was giving him a hard time in that interview last week. He had no problem with Rozner asking basically the questions, and Rozner is a Cubbie boy too, but he can at least be fair when talking White Sox.