Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[2nd_city_saint787]

This is the point that I think is TOTAL BS!! The team was "SUPPOSED" to lose in 2014??

 

If Rick Hahn told Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams that "I HAVE NO PLAN ON WINNING IN 2014, AND IN FACT, MY PLAN IS TO CONTINUE LOSING IN 2014" what do you think they would have said? Like any good boss, they would have said -- come back to me when you have a better plan.

 

You may sit here as a casual fan and spin out 5 years plans and hypothetical trades, and fantasize in August 2014 about next year's lineup, but I GUARANTEE you that's not what Rick Hahn's job is. That's not the reality of running the Chicago White Sox.

 

In the real world, the Chicago White Sox have to try to compete every year, even if they are also rebuilding to strengthen their club for the future. They aren't the Cubs, who get a perennial pass and adoration from clueless fans regardless of the crappy teams they put on the field.

 

So, Rick Hahn did a lot of things this offseason to both rebuild the team, and get it to compete for a playoff spot in 2014. If he didn't care about the latter, there are a lot of things he wouldn't have done, because they have no future with the club.

 

Why keep Adam Dunn? Why not just dump him for as much salary relief as you can get?

Why keep De Aza? He's also got no long term future, and is the highest paid outfielder on the team, as a BACKUP!

Why re-sign Paul Konerko for another year? He's going to retire at year's end.

Why dump money into signing Downs and Bellisario and Paulino? None of these guys could be expected to last even if they pitched as well as they had in the past.

Why not unload John Danks at the trade deadline for salary relief, even if you get nothing back? More money to spend in the future.

Why is Gordon Beckham still here?

 

You might be "HAPPY" about a Sox team that is going to miss the playoffs again, and is sinking like a rock now that the complete collapse of the bullpen has sapped any remaining chances the team had of making a late season run.

 

I see a team that had tremendous POTENTIAL, that could have made the playoffs in 2014 with a better bullpen plan and a better manager. When that potential is undermined and lost, I'm disappointed. And I think the guy who put the plan together deserves to be criticized, because with a better plan, the team could have made a run. As I said earlier, I think Rick Hahn would AGREE. I'm guessing he's learned a lot from the mistakes he's made, and isn't planning on repeating them.

 

No, this team wasn't supposed to "Lose", it was supposed to get better, and it has. I went back and looked at some preseason predictions threads and sadly I didn't see you post any predictions, but there was a preseason poll that got 41 votes...All but 4 votes had this as an 80-83 win team or less. I'm sure Hahn thought the same thing.

 

This year was about seeing what they had in Abreu, Eaton, Avi, Conor/Davidson, and a few of the other young guys.....Lets say Abreu ended up being a Viciedo clone, Eaton is nothing more than the guy he was last year, Avi was a bulky singles hitter he looked like at times last year, Conor was the player we saw last year and Davidson is the player he is this year?....Why go all out on signings when you have so many questions on offense (and of course pitching wise)/

 

All the signings you mentioned are all about tradeable assets. Had they performed, they're all probably traded.

 

[LDF]

This is the point that I think is TOTAL BS!! The team was "SUPPOSED" to lose in 2014??

 

If Rick Hahn told Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams that "I HAVE NO PLAN ON WINNING IN 2014, AND IN FACT, MY PLAN IS TO CONTINUE LOSING IN 2014" what do you think they would have said? Like any good boss, they would have said -- come back to me when you have a better plan.

 

You may sit here as a casual fan and spin out 5 years plans and hypothetical trades, and fantasize in August 2014 about next year's lineup, but I GUARANTEE you that's not what Rick Hahn's job is. That's not the reality of running the Chicago White Sox.

 

In the real world, the Chicago White Sox have to try to compete every year, even if they are

also rebuilding to strengthen their club for the future. They aren't the Cubs, who get a perennial

pass and adoration from clueless fans regardless of the crappy teams they put on the field.

 

So, Rick Hahn did a lot of things this offseason to both rebuild the team, and get it to compete for a

playoff spot in 2014. If he didn't care about the latter, there are a lot of things he wouldn't have done,

because they have no future with the club.

 

Why keep Adam Dunn? Why not just dump him for as much salary relief as you can get?

Why keep De Aza? He's also got no long term future, and is the highest paid outfielder on the team, as a BACKUP!

Why re-sign Paul Konerko for another year? He's going to retire at year's end.

Why dump money into signing Downs and Bellisario and Paulino? None of these guys could be expected to last even if they pitched as well as they had in the past.

Why not unload John Danks at the trade deadline for salary relief, even if you get nothing back? More money to spend in the future.

Why is Gordon Beckham still here?

 

You might be "HAPPY" about a Sox team that is going to miss the playoffs again, and is sinking like a rock now that the complete collapse of the bullpen has sapped any remaining chances the team had of making a late season run.

 

I see a team that had tremendous POTENTIAL, that could have made the playoffs in 2014 with a better bullpen plan and a better manager. When that potential is undermined and lost, I'm disappointed. And I think the guy who put the plan together deserves to be criticized, because with a better plan, the team could have made a run. As I said earlier, I think Rick Hahn would AGREE. I'm guessing he's learned a lot from the mistakes he's made, and isn't planning on repeating them.

 

 

this is why I respect you as a poster. a great point.

 

but oh s***.... I am kind of drunk as well.

[VAfan]

No, this team wasn't supposed to "Lose", it was supposed to get better, and it has. I went back and looked at some preseason predictions threads and sadly I didn't see you post any predictions, but there was a preseason poll that got 41 votes...All but 4 votes had this as an 80-83 win team or less. I'm sure Hahn thought the same thing.

 

This year was about seeing what they had in Abreu, Eaton, Avi, Conor/Davidson, and a few of the other young guys.....Lets say Abreu ended up being a Viciedo clone, Eaton is nothing more than the guy he was last year, Avi was a bulky singles hitter he looked like at times last year, Conor was the player we saw last year and Davidson is the player he is this year?....Why go all out on signings when you have so many questions on offense (and of course pitching wise)/

 

All the signings you mentioned are all about tradeable assets. Had they performed, they're all probably traded.

 

Not sure how you could go back to those prediction threads, but I'm glad you did. I think it reaffirms my point. Everyone thought this would be a .500 team. Well, .500 puts you in range of the playoffs in the current format of MLB.

 

If you are there at the trading deadline, then you get to make a choice -- go for it, or sell off and try to go for it next year.

 

None of that changes the fact that Hahn blew the bullpen part of this equation, plain and simple. But don't try to tell me that THE PLAN WAS NOT TO CONTEND. That's BS!! And if that was really Rick Hahn's plan, then he should be fired.

[greg775]

This is the point that I think is TOTAL BS!! The team was "SUPPOSED" to lose in 2014??

 

If Rick Hahn told Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams that "I HAVE NO PLAN ON WINNING IN 2014, AND IN FACT, MY PLAN IS TO CONTINUE LOSING IN 2014" what do you think they would have said? Like any good boss, they would have said -- come back to me when you have a better plan.

 

You may sit here as a casual fan and spin out 5 years plans and hypothetical trades, and fantasize in August 2014 about next year's lineup, but I GUARANTEE you that's not what Rick Hahn's job is. That's not the reality of running the Chicago White Sox.

 

In the real world, the Chicago White Sox have to try to compete every year, even if they are also rebuilding to strengthen their club for the future. They aren't the Cubs, who get a perennial pass and adoration from clueless fans regardless of the crappy teams they put on the field.

 

So, Rick Hahn did a lot of things this offseason to both rebuild the team, and get it to compete for a playoff spot in 2014. If he didn't care about the latter, there are a lot of things he wouldn't have done, because they have no future with the club.

 

Why keep Adam Dunn? Why not just dump him for as much salary relief as you can get?

Why keep De Aza? He's also got no long term future, and is the highest paid outfielder on the team, as a BACKUP!

Why re-sign Paul Konerko for another year? He's going to retire at year's end.

Why dump money into signing Downs and Bellisario and Paulino? None of these guys could be expected to last even if they pitched as well as they had in the past.

Why not unload John Danks at the trade deadline for salary relief, even if you get nothing back? More money to spend in the future.

Why is Gordon Beckham still here?

 

You might be "HAPPY" about a Sox team that is going to miss the playoffs again, and is sinking like a rock now that the complete collapse of the bullpen has sapped any remaining chances the team had of making a late season run.

 

I see a team that had tremendous POTENTIAL, that could have made the playoffs in 2014 with a better bullpen plan and a better manager. When that potential is undermined and lost, I'm disappointed. And I think the guy who put the plan together deserves to be criticized, because with a better plan, the team could have made a run. As I said earlier, I think Rick Hahn would AGREE. I'm guessing he's learned a lot from the mistakes he's made, and isn't planning on repeating them.

 

Great post. Enjoyed it and agreed with it.

[LDF]

Not sure how you could go back to those prediction threads, but I'm glad you did. I think it reaffirms my point. Everyone thought this would be a .500 team. Well, .500 puts you in range of the playoffs in the current format of MLB.

 

If you are there at the trading deadline, then you get to make a choice -- go for it, or sell off and try to go for it next year.

 

None of that changes the fact that Hahn blew the bullpen part of this equation, plain and simple.

But don't try to tell me that THE PLAN WAS NOT TO CONTEND. That's BS!! And if that was really

Rick Hahn's plan, then he should be fired.

 

while I don't know the thoughts of the sox brass, I don't think the plan was not to, but to do the

best and continue to rebuild. this plan needed to chg, b/c of the performance of the players. which

is compliment for them, b/c they are not mailing it in. (oops)

 

I also think they the sox brass weren't prepared for all the bad luck, injuries and players not performing

as expected.

Edited August 9, 2014 by LDF

[caulfield12]

while I don't know the thoughts of the sox brass, I don't think the plan was not to, but to do the

best and continue to rebuild. this plan needed to chg, b/c of the performance of the players. which

is compliment for them, b/c their not mailing it in.

 

I also think they the sox brass weren't prepared for all the bad luck, injuries and players not performing

as expected.

 

 

I wouldn't say Ventura's in danger of losing the team again, but they do need to make some personnel changes to breathe some new life into final 44 or so games and remove some of those veterans.

 

They held on for 4 months of the season, but things are really rough right now. We're out of contention and playing some teams with everything in the world to play for. It's a transition phase...I think all those guys like Dunn/Konerko/DeAza/Beckham can feel the writing on the wall and the team's just kind of stuck waiting for everything to play out. Even Abreu's homer bat has disappeared for the time being.

Edited August 9, 2014 by caulfield12

[LDF]

I wouldn't say Ventura's in danger of losing the team again, but they do need to make some personnel changes to breathe some new life into final 44 or so games and remove some of those veterans.

 

They held on for 4 months of the season, but things are really rough right now. We're out of contention

and playing some teams with everything in the world to play for. It's a transition phase...I think all those

guys like Dunn/Konerko/DeAza/Beckham can feel the writing on the wall and the team's just kind of stuck

waiting for everything to play out. Even Abreu's homer bat has disappeared for the time being.

 

 

and that is the key phrase. as I said in another post, sept is coming fast.

[Eminor3rd]

This is the point that I think is TOTAL BS!! The team was "SUPPOSED" to lose in 2014??

 

If Rick Hahn told Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams that "I HAVE NO PLAN ON WINNING IN 2014, AND IN FACT, MY PLAN IS TO CONTINUE LOSING IN 2014" what do you think they would have said? Like any good boss, they would have said -- come back to me when you have a better plan.

 

You may sit here as a casual fan and spin out 5 years plans and hypothetical trades, and fantasize in August 2014 about next year's lineup, but I GUARANTEE you that's not what Rick Hahn's job is. That's not the reality of running the Chicago White Sox.

 

In the real world, the Chicago White Sox have to try to compete every year, even if they are also rebuilding to strengthen their club for the future. They aren't the Cubs, who get a perennial pass and adoration from clueless fans regardless of the crappy teams they put on the field.

 

So, Rick Hahn did a lot of things this offseason to both rebuild the team, and get it to compete for a playoff spot in 2014. If he didn't care about the latter, there are a lot of things he wouldn't have done, because they have no future with the club.

 

Why keep Adam Dunn? Why not just dump him for as much salary relief as you can get?

Why keep De Aza? He's also got no long term future, and is the highest paid outfielder on the team, as a BACKUP!

Why re-sign Paul Konerko for another year? He's going to retire at year's end.

Why dump money into signing Downs and Bellisario and Paulino? None of these guys could be expected to last even if they pitched as well as they had in the past.

Why not unload John Danks at the trade deadline for salary relief, even if you get nothing back? More money to spend in the future.

Why is Gordon Beckham still here?

 

You might be "HAPPY" about a Sox team that is going to miss the playoffs again, and is sinking like a rock now that the complete collapse of the bullpen has sapped any remaining chances the team had of making a late season run.

 

I see a team that had tremendous POTENTIAL, that could have made the playoffs in 2014 with a better bullpen plan and a better manager. When that potential is undermined and lost, I'm disappointed. And I think the guy who put the plan together deserves to be criticized, because with a better plan, the team could have made a run. As I said earlier, I think Rick Hahn would AGREE. I'm guessing he's learned a lot from the mistakes he's made, and isn't planning on repeating them.

 

There's a massive difference between "trying to lose" and "not being willing to try as hard as we can at the moment, because the implications of doing so and failing will affect our longer-term goal." When we say "supposed" to lose, we are referring to the latter. Maybe "expected" to lose is better.

 

I'm really shocked that you don't seem to understand this -- it's a very, very common reality in professional sports. It is a necessary evil in a world where players have the leverage to demand more resources than are in the team's best interest to commit.

 

You keep acting like we are happy about the fact the team is losing, which is insane. We're just looking at it with the glass half-full: the team sucked more than they've ever sucked in my entire lifetime in 2013. After a bunch of theoretically sustainable improvements, they are showing signs of life in 2014. They've been much better to watch, they promise to continue improving, and the front office has managed to make these upgrades while maintaining the flexibility to make more soon. That's good, efficient business.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Not sure how you could go back to those prediction threads, but I'm glad you did. I think it reaffirms my point. Everyone thought this would be a .500 team. Well, .500 puts you in range of the playoffs in the current format of MLB.

 

If you are there at the trading deadline, then you get to make a choice -- go for it, or sell off and try to go for it next year.

 

None of that changes the fact that Hahn blew the bullpen part of this equation, plain and simple. But don't try to tell me that THE PLAN WAS NOT TO CONTEND. That's BS!! And if that was really Rick Hahn's plan, then he should be fired.

 

 

 

Here's the poll.... http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91405 .... So there were more people here who thought this is a below .500 ball blub than at or above .500.

 

The problem with your second stanza is the Sox didn't have any pieces to trade to "go for it".

 

We will just have to agree to disagree on the bullpen being his fault. I laid it out to the best of my ability in my post the other day. I'll wrap that post up to you in one sentence. The org saw Jones, Lindstrom, and Webb as all potential closers, Belly and Downs had both been successful vets, and Petricka earned a spot after looking good last season.

 

Really, I'd soon rather blame KW for not having anyone in the minors to cover for the injuries and implosions of Belly and Downs. Had we had a better arms more far along in the farm system we probably have that depth to cover it.

 

In the last 24 years going from worst to first has happened 11 times, so ya, it's possible to go from a 99 loss team to a contender in a year, but the fact of the matter is everything has to go right in that scenario.

 

 

 

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

I love the people that say that if the Sox had a better bullpen they'd be contending. It's not just the bullpen. 2/5 of the starting rotation is comprised of Scott Carroll and Hector Noesi. Alejandro De Aza, Gordon Beckham, and Dayan Viciedo have gotten significant at bats. Paul Konerko is on the f***ing team. Those are other reasons why this team isn't very good. What more should Rick have done for the bullpen? This thread is madness.

[greg775]

I love the people that say that if the Sox had a better bullpen they'd be contending. It's not just the bullpen. 2/5 of the starting rotation is comprised of Scott Carroll and Hector Noesi. Alejandro De Aza, Gordon Beckham, and Dayan Viciedo have gotten significant at bats. Paul Konerko is on the f***ing team. Those are other reasons why this team isn't very good. What more should Rick have done for the bullpen? This thread is madness.

 

Up until the most recent fizz, the team was a good bullpen away from being right there for the wild card.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Up until the most recent fizz, the team was a good bullpen away from being right there for the wild card.

 

 

That is false.

[kitekrazy]

Up until the most recent fizz, the team was a good bullpen away from being right there for the wild card.

 

I believe that has a lot to do with more teams being bad or not up to their usual standards.

 

They can't seem to play good baseball in August.

 

[caulfield12]

I believe that has a lot to do with more teams being bad or not up to their usual standards.

 

They can't seem to play good baseball in August.

 

That and the schedule's going to be rougher from here on out...Minnesota and Texas were that last great opportunity to get to .500 or at least just 1 game under and now they're back to only one game away from their low water mark (-8) for the season. Mostly, they've been at -3 to -6, in that range, never winning 4 in a row and never bad enough with Sale/Quintana/Abreu/Eaton/Ramirez to go on a prolonged losing stretch until now.

Edited August 9, 2014 by caulfield12

[LDF]

Here's the poll.... http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91405 .... So there were more people here who thought this is a below .500 ball blub than at or above .500.

 

The problem with your second stanza is the Sox didn't have any pieces to trade to "go for it".

 

We will just have to agree to disagree on the bullpen being his fault. I laid it out to the best of my ability in my post the other day. I'll wrap that post up to you in one sentence. The org saw Jones, Lindstrom, and Webb as all potential closers, Belly and Downs had both been successful vets, and Petricka earned a spot after looking good last season.

 

Really, I'd soon rather blame KW for not having anyone in the minors to cover for the injuries and implosions of Belly and Downs. Had we had a better arms more far along in the farm system we probably have that depth to cover it.

 

In the last 24 years going from worst to first has happened 11 times, so ya, it's possible to go from a 99 loss team to a contender in a year, but the fact of the matter is everything has to go right in that scenario.

 

I need to clarify 1 thing, reading this post and re-reading the thread, I am under the impression that you and

the rest of the posters are talking about the Relief Pitchers. If that is the case I somewhat owe you an apology

for my other post. I was thinking of the whole pitching staff.

 

now with re to blame of the "bullpen", I am with you, Hahn could not have predicted Lady Luck and all the injuries

that has happen. not only did we have 2 injuries to start the season, but the rest happen. I dare anyone to

show any other team that would have done better, trading not included.

 

now if 1 wants to say about trading for help, the sox do not have the resources to make that trade without

gutting the farms of some valuable assets. now the blame falls on JR. how can he allowed KW to screw up the

farm system this bad!!! JR is the final word, he is the owner.

 

now for the starting rotation, that is another story.

[southsider2k5]

I love the people that say that if the Sox had a better bullpen they'd be contending. It's not just the bullpen. 2/5 of the starting rotation is comprised of Scott Carroll and Hector Noesi. Alejandro De Aza, Gordon Beckham, and Dayan Viciedo have gotten significant at bats. Paul Konerko is on the f***ing team. Those are other reasons why this team isn't very good. What more should Rick have done for the bullpen? This thread is madness.

 

I love the idea that somehow a GM would be able to turn over something like 18 to 20 players on a roster in under a year.