Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[Kyyle23]

I thought it looked really good too, and due to plain bad luck, it's been the worst. Frankly, I'm not sure what they could have done differently.

 

Robin could have made everyone confident.

 

Confidence = Overcoming

[Dick Allen]

It wasn't all bad luck. Downs was getting pretty old. Beli was a non tender, that's $7 million right there. Sure Jones may have helped. It was bad luck Lindstrom got hurt, but there were posts on here saying his injury was a blessing. Putnam got hurt, but his performance has well exceeded expectations. Petricka has been at least as good as anyone could expect, and the other guys were junk. Waiver wire pick ups or organizational arms like Rienzo who people get way too excited about.

 

The good news is if you are a White Sox prospect and fancy at least starting your career in the bullpen, you have zero obstacles except poor performance or injury keeping you from a major league job.

[Rowand44]

Who knows what the Pen is like if Jones and Lindstrom didn't break. Either way, I think it's semi fair to blame Rick for the pen but you better be willing to give him a ton of credit for the turn around this team has had in one season. The bullpen is a quick/cheap fix for next season and we should be ready to compete and that's an incredible statement to what Rick has done to turn this organization around.

[witesoxfan]

It wasn't all bad luck. Downs was getting pretty old. Beli was a non tender, that's $7 million right there. Sure Jones may have helped. It was bad luck Lindstrom got hurt, but there were posts on here saying his injury was a blessing. Putnam got hurt, but his performance has well exceeded expectations. Petricka has been at least as good as anyone could expect, and the other guys were junk. Waiver wire pick ups or organizational arms like Rienzo who people get way too excited about.

 

The good news is if you are a White Sox prospect and fancy at least starting your career in the bullpen, you have zero obstacles except poor performance or injury keeping you from a major league job.

 

But it's mostly bad luck. Belisario wasn't bad last year and it seemed the Dodgers no longer wanted him because they had other guys coming in (meaning they were just spending as much money as they could on the bullpen) plus there were some concerns about his night life. He's been extraordinarily unlucky this year - a 53.2% LOB% is just about the lowest I've ever seen. Downs was a great reliever last year and he just couldn't find the strike zone with the Sox. Injuries are bad luck too.

[Dick Allen]

But it's mostly bad luck. Belisario wasn't bad last year and it seemed the Dodgers no longer wanted him because they had other guys coming in (meaning they were just spending as much money as they could on the bullpen) plus there were some concerns about his night life. He's been extraordinarily unlucky this year - a 53.2% LOB% is just about the lowest I've ever seen. Downs was a great reliever last year and he just couldn't find the strike zone with the Sox. Injuries are bad luck too.

Why is it bad luck when players don't perform up to their last year's performance? The GMs job is to project. Why isn't Gordon Beckham's BABIP bad luck? Except for a nice stretch after the first couple of weeks, Beli has pretty much been awful. You either get the job done or you don't. Hahn picked the wrong guys. That's simple. I watched them tee off on the White Sox bullpen this weekend. There were a couple of dinks, but for the most part they were hitting ropes all over the place.

 

Belisario had issues, but ask Dodger fans about him and you won't get many positives out of his performance.

 

People can't wait to dump Danks' contract, yet look at Downs, Beli, Keppinger, Paulino, add up all that money and it's pretty close to what the are paying Danks or even Dunn and at least those guys contribute something.

[witesoxfan]

A 53.2% LOB% is incredibly unlucky in the grand scheme of things. If you want one example, look at Arcia's 2 run double on Saturday's game. That entire play is De Aza's fault. He took a poor route, faced the wrong way, and as a result, had to adjust while going back and leap and he misplayed it, and somehow that is not an error on him. A good defender makes that play and "saves" two runs. Yet somehow, the official scorer believed that the 2 runs given up were Belisario's fault.

 

Ask Angels or Blue Jays fans about Scott Downs. See what they tell you. That's a pretty poor argument. Belisario was fairly good last year and he's been mostly hit with one too many hits. I'd have no problem with him coming back.

 

Gordon Beckham has gotten a bit unlucky. I don't see how that's relevant. There's also 2850 plate appearances worth of results to show that he's not a very good hitter and to expect change is insanity.

 

I also am not a guy who feels that the Sox need to dump Danks, and you know that. An upgrade would be fine but it's not necessary. If they can get the right players, I don't mind them trading him.

[Dick Allen]

A 53.2% LOB% is incredibly unlucky in the grand scheme of things. If you want one example, look at Arcia's 2 run double on Saturday's game. That entire play is De Aza's fault. He took a poor route, faced the wrong way, and as a result, had to adjust while going back and leap and he misplayed it, and somehow that is not an error on him. A good defender makes that play and "saves" two runs. Yet somehow, the official scorer believed that the 2 runs given up were Belisario's fault.

 

Ask Angels or Blue Jays fans about Scott Downs. See what they tell you. That's a pretty poor argument. Belisario was fairly good last year and he's been mostly hit with one too many hits. I'd have no problem with him coming back.

 

Gordon Beckham has gotten a bit unlucky. I don't see how that's relevant. There's also 2850 plate appearances worth of results to show that he's not a very good hitter and to expect change is insanity.

 

I also am not a guy who feels that the Sox need to dump Danks, and you know that. An upgrade would be fine but it's not necessary. If they can get the right players, I don't mind them trading him.

 

It also was unlucky for the hitter that ball didn't wind up in the seats. It was tatooed. Beli sucks, there are no 2 ways around it.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Why is it bad luck when players don't perform up to their last year's performance? The GMs job is to project. Why isn't Gordon Beckham's BABIP bad luck? Except for a nice stretch after the first couple of weeks, Beli has pretty much been awful. You either get the job done or you don't. Hahn picked the wrong guys. That's simple. I watched them tee off on the White Sox bullpen this weekend. There were a couple of dinks, but for the most part they were hitting ropes all over the place.

 

Belisario had issues, but ask Dodger fans about him and you won't get many positives out of his performance.

 

People can't wait to dump Danks' contract, yet look at Downs, Beli, Keppinger, Paulino, add up all that money and it's pretty close to what the are paying Danks or even Dunn and at least those guys contribute something.

 

Oh c'mon DA, I expect more from you. How can you project them being this bad?

 

Belly just simply doesn't belong in high leverage situations, and if injuries never happened he probably never sees those situations. Lindstrom was gonna be that RH set up guy, and based on how well he pitched last year and in the minors Daniel Webb probably was looked at ahead of Belly in those situations.....I still remember one of them fancy fangraphs articles that called Webb a future closer.

 

We're also talking about a bullpen that was built for a rebuilding team. Like everyone continues to say on here it's the last thing you build. If Hahn looked into that crystal ball everyone expects him to have and saw that this team was a bullpen away from being in serious contention for a WC and possibly even an outside shot at the division I'm sure we'd be looking at a different pen right now....

[witesoxfan]

It also was unlucky for the hitter that ball didn't wind up in the seats. It was tatooed. Beli sucks, there are no 2 ways around it.

 

It was a pitch low and away that Arcia went down and got. Guys hit balls hard all the time right at players. If you're using that argument, then Burton is lucky that the ball Dunn hit didn't leave the stadium.

[Dick Allen]

Oh c'mon DA, I expect more from you. How can you project them being this bad?

 

Belly just simply doesn't belong in high leverage situations, and if injuries never happened he probably never sees those situations. Lindstrom was gonna be that RH set up guy, and based on how well he pitched last year and in the minors Daniel Webb probably was looked at ahead of Belly in those situations.....I still remember one of them fancy fangraphs articles that called Webb a future closer.

 

We're also talking about a bullpen that was built for a rebuilding team. Like everyone continues to say on here it's the last thing you build. If Hahn looked into that crystal ball everyone expects him to have and saw that this team was a bullpen away from being in serious contention for a WC and possibly even an outside shot at the division I'm sure we'd be looking at a different pen right now....

You don't pay guys $3 million to not pitch in high leverage situations.

 

The problem is there are so many pitchers on the team this board says do not belong in high leverage situations, which means there are one or two guys who do, and they cannot pitch in each of those situations.

 

The bullpen is horrible. It's a bunch of scrap heap pick ups that didn't work out, and it is costing the White Sox at least a shot of trying to win the wildcard.

 

I would bet everything I own, Rick Hahn doesn't use lack of luck as an excuse with some of these guys and bring them back next season.

[LittleHurt05]

You don't pay guys $3 million to not pitch in high leverage situations.

 

The problem is there are so many pitchers on the team this board says do not belong in high leverage situations, which means there are one or two guys who do, and they cannot pitch in each of those situations.

 

The bullpen is horrible. It's a bunch of scrap heap pick ups that didn't work out, and it is costing the White Sox at least a shot of trying to win the wildcard.

 

I would bet everything I own, Rick Hahn doesn't use lack of luck as an excuse with some of these guys and bring them back next season.

 

When the top 3 relievers in your preseason depth chart are not on the active roster, that's gonna happen.

[RockRaines]

Yes, he predicted injuries to his last two guys in the game.

[Dick Allen]

When the top 3 relievers in your preseason depth chart are not on the active roster, that's gonna happen.

That's why, if you think you have a shot at winning, you don't trade Addison Reed for Josh Fields Jr.

 

People had no problem and still don't with the Sox getting rid of him. Yet now the bullpen sucks because Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom, yes the same Matt Lindstrom some where doing cartwheels about when they found out he was hurt and would no longer be closing, aren't there.

 

If Jones and Lindstrom were both healthy, and really, I don't know how in the world anyone can assume a pitching staff won't suffer numerous injuries, the Sox bullpen would still suck. Hahn knew it in spring training, but it was too late.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Chisoxfn]

I'm going to say this. We entered this season with what I thought was a bad bullpen. We had no closer, however, I thought Nate could step into that role. We added some scrap heap vet arms and obviously had Lindstrom who I put as a serviceable reliever and probably one of the worst closers on any opening day roster. The two of them got hurt, which was surprising, but as a whole, this pen had very little talent, and that is on Hahn. With a league average pen, we are, conservatively 2-3 games out of the wild card. However, we don't have that and never did, so while injuries factored in, I also think the pen was devoid with talent and that was from the start.

 

The bright side is, bullpens, can be remade pretty quickly and I am sure that will be an area Hahn targets. They also can be great places to bring up guys internally and hopefully Petricka and Webb continue to develop and that gives us a couple, quality, cost controlled relievers.

[2nd_city_saint787]

That's why, if you think you have a shot at winning, you don't trade Addison Reed for Josh Fields Jr.

 

People had no problem and still don't with the Sox getting rid of him. Yet now the bullpen sucks because Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom, yes the same Matt Lindstrom some where doing cartwheels about when they found out he was hurt and would no longer be closing, aren't there.

 

If Jones and Lindstrom were both healthy, and really, I don't know how in the world anyone can assume a pitching staff won't suffer numerous injuries, the Sox bullpen will still suck. Hahn knew it in spring training, but it was too late.

 

It's a rebuilding year. Hahn doesn't think he had a shot at winning....

Edited August 4, 2014 by scs787

[Chisoxfn]

Yes, he predicted injuries to his last two guys in the game.

Lindstrom was already, on paper, one of the worst closers on opening day. Again, not calling him a bad reliever but he was not one of the 20 best closers to start the season. This pen was bad to start and while Nate and Lindstrom were unexpected, most everything else could be expected with exception of Putnam pulling things out. We had some vets on the decline or who we were hoping we could turn around plus Petricka and Webb (as two nice arms who...are still just that and really the only projectable worthwhile pieces in our pen).

[Dick Allen]

It's a rebuilding year. Hahn doesn't think he had a shot at winning....

If that is what he thought, he thought wrong. An average bullpen, this team, with all it's warts, had a shot.

[Chisoxfn]

It's a rebuilding year. Hahn doesn't think he had a shot at winning....

I don't think anyone expected the club to be this much better, this quickly. I don't think Hahn was that focused and was more focused on reclamation projects, etc, to see if he could get some other cheap options going forward thinking that soonest we could compete was next year.

[Dick Allen]

Lindstrom was already, on paper, one of the worst closers on opening day. Again, not calling him a bad reliever but he was not one of the 20 best closers to start the season. This pen was bad to start and while Nate and Lindstrom were unexpected, most everything else could be expected with exception of Putnam pulling things out. We had some vets on the decline or who we were hoping we could turn around plus Petricka and Webb (as two nice arms who...are still just that and really the only projectable worthwhile pieces in our pen).

Yes. I understand injuries can set you back, but it's Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom.

 

I will say, since he's been injured, Matt Lindstrom has become a lot better pitcher without even throwing a pitch than he was when he went down.

[2nd_city_saint787]

If that is what he thought, he thought wrong. An average bullpen, this team, with all it's warts, had a shot.

 

I'm pretty sure he has said it countless times that we're rebuilding and if you expect a team that just came off a 90 loss season not to rebuild for a year or 2 you're crazy.

 

 

[Chisoxfn]

If that is what he thought, he thought wrong. An average bullpen, this team, with all it's warts, had a shot.

The moves they made, seemed to be indications, that it was unlikely we would have a legit shot this year. Not to say if everything broke right we didn't, but it seemed that there was still a much more long picture in view and realistically as fans, I think we all would have said, somewhere near to slightly above .500 would be probably the high end of the road.

[witesoxfan]

It's a rebuilding year. Hahn doesn't think he had a shot at winning....

 

I don't think that's true at all. The profiles of the guys he's brought in have been ground ball pitchers and, if possible, guys with power sinkers or good split finger stuff. Either way, he's been getting away from the flyball pitcher out of the pen.

 

I think there's a parallel universe out there somewhere where this bullpen pitched up to it's potential, but that just wasn't the case here.

[Chisoxfn]

Yes. I understand injuries can set you back, but it's Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom.

 

I will say, since he's been injured, Matt Lindstrom has become a lot better pitcher without even throwing a pitch than he was when he went down.

He was one of our last relievers a year ago and become one of our top 2 guys and it wasn't like a year agos performance indicated he was deserving of that. No, he wasn't bad, but he certainly isn't real good either. It was a bad pen from day 1 (which, I think you are in agreement with DA, at least based upon the post above).

[ptatc]

I think I remember reading in the off season that bullpens are easy to put together and that the back end of the bullpen isn't a priority because teams can just plug pitchers in there.

[2nd_city_saint787]

I don't think that's true at all. The profiles of the guys he's brought in have been ground ball pitchers and, if possible, guys with power sinkers or good split finger stuff. Either way, he's been getting away from the flyball pitcher out of the pen.

 

I think there's a parallel universe out there somewhere where this bullpen pitched up to it's potential, but that just wasn't the case here.

 

I mean more from a depth perspective. A team that's expecting to win probably goes a little deeper than this bullpen.