Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[GGajewski18]

I was watching Intentional Talk with Chris Rose and Kevin Millar. They had a stat of the youngest teams in the league, the Sox have the 5th youngest roster behind the Astros, Marlins, Braves and a team that I have forgotten. The average age of this team is 26.7, the 25 man roster. The 40 man is 27.3.

 

With guys like Konerko and Dunn coming off the books, Sox are going to be extremely young (potentially) next season which is encouraging given the success this year minus the bullpen. Currently, the Sox only have one pitcher and 3 position players in their 30s (Dunn, Danks, Konerko, Ramirez). Few more young pieces and sky is the limit in my opinion.

 

Plus I didn't know where to put this.

Edited August 4, 2014 by SoxPride18

[SCCWS]

This thread blows.

 

You don't spend a ton of money on a bullpen for a rebuilding team. You don't trade away prospects from a rebuilding team to get veteran bullpen arms. Relief pitchers have the most erratic results from year to year of any players. The bullpen as constructed with Jones and Lindstom not getting injured and Belisario and Shields simply pitching similarly to last year and the rest of their careers, the bullpen is just fine.

 

If you are going to blame Rick Hahn for veteran relievers not pitching up to their historical numbers or getting injured then by the same "logic" you also have to credit Hahn for everything Jose Abreu has done. Abreu hasn't hit one home run this year, Hahn hit them.

 

P.S.- Our bullpen is 12th best in the AL. Our starters are also 12th best.

 

Can there be a separate forum on this site just for posters who don't say dumb s***?

 

 

Belisario is pitching very similiar to last year. I tend to ignore era and w/l for relievers. Last year batters hit .274 off him and this year it is .284. Last year his WHIP was 1.47 and it is 1.38 this year. That is because his walks are down this year. He was mediocre last year so I am not sure what you expected this year. Jones had mediocre numbers as well last year. Lindstom has a career .274 BA against him. That is poor for a reliver.

[southsider2k5]

I really wasn't too familiar the day of the trade. The more I read about Davidson, the more the deal didn't seem very good to me. It isn't hindsight. That's too easy. I didn't like this trade before they reported to spring training.

 

I'm sure not seeing anything like that. It seems like the more hind was sighted, the more opinion changed. I remember one guy who has been against this from day one and that is Oldsox who mentions it with every single blown save.

[chitownsportsfan]

People conflate the high leverage situations bullpens often come into with the actual importance of the pen. No bad team looks at its roster and thinks "boy, If I just had a shut down pen this 70 win team is gonna make the playoffs". Try it on OOTP one time see how it works out for you.

 

First you get a good offense and a solid starting staff, then you worry about the pen.

[Dick Allen]

I'm sure not seeing anything like that. It seems like the more hind was sighted, the more opinion changed. I remember one guy who has been against this from day one and that is Oldsox who mentions it with every single blown save.

Whateves. The sign that at least the DBacks didn't think too much of Davidson's " middle of the order " bat was when they traded for Trumbo, basically a RH Adam Dunn with fewer walks. Eaton and Skaggs is a high price to pay if you think you already have that power in house. And I definitely mentioned when a lot of people were concerned about his super 2 status, the possibility no one will give a crap about that during the season.

 

Does anyone really think that if no egg would be on his face and Towers offered Reed for Davidson at the trade deadline, Hahn would pass?

[Vance Law]

Whateves. The sign that at least the DBacks didn't think too much of Davidson's " middle of the order " bat was when they traded for Trumbo, basically a RH Adam Dunn with fewer walks. Eaton and Skaggs is a high price to pay if you think you already have that power in house. And I definitely mentioned when a lot of people were concerned about his super 2 status, the possibility no one will give a crap about that during the season.

 

Does anyone really think that if no egg would be on his face and Towers offered Reed for Davidson at the trade deadline, Hahn would pass?

 

 

Is your point that the D'Back are really smart, and make all the right moves? Since they are the smartest they knew to unload Davidson to get Reed?

 

Where were their smarts in the Eaton/Skaggs trade? While you're at it, look at it in the context of them just trading away Parra. Do you think if they had it to do over again they'd trade Parra at his peak value in the offseason and still have Eaton right now?

 

Is your point that the DBack's GM is a genius who was intending to compete this year and so traded away a prospect for a closer who is getting more expensive and they are 14 games under .500 and have Mark Trumbo instead of Eaton and Skaggs?

 

 

 

[Vance Law]

Does anyone really think that if no egg would be on his face and Towers offered Reed for Davidson at the trade deadline, Hahn would pass?

 

How about if the D'Backs were offered back Eaton and Skaggs for Trumbo?

[Dick Allen]

Is your point that the D'Back are really smart, and make all the right moves? Since they are the smartest they knew to unload Davidson to get Reed?

 

Where were their smarts in the Eaton/Skaggs trade? While you're at it, look at it in the context of them just trading away Parra. Do you think if they had it to do over again they'd trade Parra at his peak value in the offseason and still have Eaton right now?

 

Is your point that the DBack's GM is a genius who was intending to compete this year and so traded away a prospect for a closer who is getting more expensive and they are 14 games under .500 and have Mark Trumbo instead of Eaton and Skaggs?

Take a breath.

 

My point was he was willing to overpay for power. If he was as high on Davidson as Soxtalk, and I am guessing he has better reports, I doubt he overpays for power.

 

Something didn't add up in my mind. Right or wrong that is the truth.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

How about if the D'Backs were offered back Eaton and Skaggs for Trumbo?

What does that have to do with anything?

 

Apparently you are one person who thinks it is impossible for Hahn to make a bad move. Even he would disagree with you. I thought signing Beli was a decent move, but it turns out that was wrong. Every GM makes mistakes. I pointed out your boy Rick made several great moves, but this one was bad.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Kyyle23]

What does that have to do with anything?

 

Apparently you are one person who thinks it is impossible for Hahn to make a bad move. Even he would disagree with you. I thought signing Beli was a decent move, but it turns out that was wrong. Every GM makes mistakes. I pointed out your boy Rick made several great moves, but this one was bad.

 

Nothing at all, he is offering a false equivalency scenario just like you did a few posts up.

 

Does anyone really think that if no egg would be on his face and Towers offered Reed for Davidson at the trade deadline, Hahn would pass?

 

[Dick Allen]

Nothing, he is offering a false equivalency scenario just like you did a few posts up.

I really don't understand. Towers specifically said he was targeting power then he trades Davidson. People said Davidson is a middle of the order power bat. Towers is wrong sometimes too. But apparenty he was correct to dump Davidson. And considering Reed supposedly sucks, it is really baffling he wasn't given a better offer.

 

The discussion is the Reed/ Davidson trade. I think mentioning if he could reverse it is relevant.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Vance Law]

My point was he was willing to overpay for power. If he was as high on Davidson as Soxtalk, and I am guessing he has better reports, I doubt he overpays for power.

 

Something didn't add up in my mind. Right or wrong that is the truth.

 

I can buy that. But then also his decisions are frequently wrong.

[Eminor3rd]

When should the Sox get the go ahead to build a good bullpen?

 

Maybe as soon as next year. Last year, he rightfully spent the whole offseason upgrading the offense first, and did a goddamn good job of it. If he hadn't, we wouldn't be in pseudo-contention in the first place and this would be a moot point.

 

You guys are taking a season that went WAY better than expected and turning it into a BAD thing somehow. I'm not going to pissed at Hahn because he managed to turn the team around so quickly but fell short of a damn world championship, lol.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Vance Law]

Apparently you are one person who thinks it is impossible for Hahn to make a bad move.

 

I don't think that. Every GM will make bad moves. It's baseball. It's to some degree a crapshoot. I think he's clearly made way more good moves than bad. There's always a big contingent of poster here who has a major hardon to complain about something, anything at all times. The current flavor being "this would be a playoff team if we just had Addison Reed." I'm not saying you are doing that. You're saying you had concerns early on that they were dumping Davidson.

 

Even if Davidson ends up a total bust and never contributes in the big leagues, trading away your about-to-get-expensive closer from a rebuilding team for a position player is the thing to target. If the Sox got "fooled" on Davidson, then so did every other scouting service who ranked him so high.

[iamshack]

Maybe as soon as next year. Last year, he rightfully spent the whole offseason upgrading the offense first, and did a goddamn good job of it. If he hadn't, we wouldn't be in pseudo-contention in the first place and this would be a moot point.

 

You guys are taking a season that went WAY better than expected and turning it into a BAD thing somehow. I'm not going to pissed at Hahn because he managed to turn the team around so quickly but fell short of a damn world championship, lol.

The key has obviously been Abreu. We somewhat unknowingly (at least this quickly)signed an MVP contender. Then Alexei has a bit of a resurgence, and Q and Eaton put together very solid years. Had we known all this coming into the season, we might have invested a bit more in the bullpen.

 

I will say this much...you can always move great bullpen pieces at the break. The Cubs, Orioles and others have utilized this as a method of acquiring young talent even in down years. Unfortunately for us, the two guys we did sign this year have been worse than back hair.

 

Dick, you're as hypocritical as they come. Why should we listen to your thoughts on being a General Manager? What is your previous experience in General Managing? Do you have any front office experience? May I see your resume prior to any further comments on Rick Hahn's performance? Where were all these comments prior to these signings going poorly? Can you document for me your opposition to the Scott Downs and Ronald Bellisario acquisitions? I'd like to see more credit given to Rick by you for the Jose Abreu and Adam Eaton acquisitions.

Edited August 5, 2014 by iamshack

[oldsox]

I'm sure not seeing anything like that. It seems like the more hind was sighted, the more opinion changed. I remember one guy who has been against this from day one and that is Oldsox who mentions it with every single blown save.

Not exactly true, Southsider. I have been more likely to opine when you and your buddy support the trade ad nauseum and/or point out how flawed Reed is, or when you put Davidson near the head of Sox prospect list. I am not in the habit or originating threads on the subject, but I do respond. If Peticka or anyone else comes in and blows a save this week, I don't plan on coming to Soxtalk and bring up Reed. But since you asked, I'm done with the subject.

[LDF]

 

first and foremost, I am a huge fan of Hahn. now I am not blind to some of his mistakes

and I am not putting him on a pedestal. I, to my best thoughts, will not hang him out if Hahn

doesn't make this a world series club in his first yr nor second. this whole systems and the state

of it falls on KW lap. that is another subject.

 

with the short time Hahn has had, he has done a great job. not perfect but a great job with what

he has and had. how can anyone say otherwise? did anyone really thought this will be done overnite?

what extensive resources do we have at our disposal to use for trades? how lucky is a team going to get

by scouring the waiver list?

 

this yr was close in really out performing the avg opinions. lets build on this going going into the offseason.

I don't know about most, I am stoke in seeing what the powers to be will do.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The key has obviously been Abreu. We somewhat unknowingly (at least this quickly)signed an MVP contender. Then Alexei has a bit of a resurgence, and Q and Eaton put together very solid years. Had we known all this coming into the season, we might have invested a bit more in the bullpen.

 

I will say this much...you can always move great bullpen pieces at the break. The Cubs, Orioles and others have utilized this as a method of acquiring young talent even in down years. Unfortunately for us, the two guys we did sign this year have been worse than back hair.

 

Dick, you're as hypocritical as they come. Why should we listen to your thoughts on being a General Manager? What is your previous experience in General Managing? Do you have any front office experience? May I see your resume prior to any further comments on Rick Hahn's performance? Where were all these comments prior to these signings going poorly? Can you document for me your opposition to the Scott Downs and Ronald Bellisario acquisitions? I'd like to see more credit given to Rick by you for the Jose Abreu and Adam Eaton acquisitions.

I've tried this tactic with him. Brought up getting on those who critique Ventura in hindsight or 2nd guessing him and while he gets on Hahn. But he swears he isn't using hindsight, says he was critical of that trade from get go ,oops ,wait now its from the start of spring training thanks to SSk2 doing some detective work.

 

I was like fine so which plan have you advocated the Sox (Hahn) follow ? Contend every year , spend the max on payroll every year or Hahn's plan to build up the core 1st because its a rebuild and try for sustained success while limiting costs for but spending more for special occasions, because the Sox don't have a lot of things going for them financially to be able to do both at the same time. He danced around the question every time never giving a straight answer. Then he went on the attack trying to divert my attention from him onto me, but I know his M.O. so I didn't bite. I politely called him a guy who plays devil's advocate to stir the pot which others would call a troll. I'm not even as anti troll as most people on a message board are because it can generate conversation for Jason's sake and the sake of keeping Soxtalk around awhile it aint all bad .

[Dick Allen]

I've tried this tactic with him. Brought up getting on those who critique Ventura in hindsight or 2nd guessing him and while he gets on Hahn. But he swears he isn't using hindsight, says he was critical of that trade from get go ,oops ,wait now its from the start of spring training thanks to SSk2 doing some detective work.

 

I was like fine so which plan have you advocated the Sox (Hahn) follow ? Contend every year , spend the max on payroll every year or Hahn's plan to build up the core 1st because its a rebuild and try for sustained success while limiting costs for but spending more for special occasions, because the Sox don't have a lot of things going for them financially to be able to do both at the same time. He danced around the question every time never giving a straight answer. Then he went on the attack trying to divert my attention from him onto me, but I know his M.O. so I didn't bite. I politely called him a guy who plays devil's advocate to stir the pot which others would call a troll. I'm not even as anti troll as most people on a message board are because it can generate conversation for Jason's sake and the sake of keeping Soxtalk around awhile it aint all bad .

LMAO.

[VAfan]

Not a year after losing 99 games.

 

Had they known Abreu was gonna be one of the best players in baseball, Adam Eaton was gonna be one of the better leadoff hitters in baseball, Conor Gillaspie was gonne be in the top 10 in BA, and Lexi was gonna be the "offensive force" he has been this year, then yes, they probably put forth more effort into making the bullpen good.

 

Say Abreu needs a year to adjust, Adam Eaton is the .252/.314/.360 hitter he was last year, Gillaspie is the .245/.305/.390 hitter he was last year, and Lexi is the sun .700 OPS hitter he's been the last 2 years.....What good would that team be with a good bullpen?

 

What this totally misses is that, BEFORE the season, there were a lot of people on Sox Talk who thought the Sox would be around a .500 team. And .500 puts you in contention for the last wildcard spot in today's MLB.

 

This goes back to the "rebuilding" BS that keeps getting repeated here. I GUARANTEE that Rick Hahn didn't dole out multi-year multi-million dollar contracts to Bellisario and Downs thinking they would be total failures. In other words, Hahn wouldn't agree that they PLANNED on mediocrity, and were just waiting until 2015 to start building a bullpen. The problem was that HE HAD A BAD PLAN to field a competent bullpen IN 2014, not that his plan was to field a BAD BULLPEN.

 

Accordingly, the answer to my post question -- "Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?" -- the answer is clearly YES.

[GreenSox]

When should the Sox get the go ahead to build a good bullpen?

When they're ready.

And they'll be ready when they have a solid bottom half of the bullpen built internally (we may not be far away from that), some prospects to fill positions if necessary and when the rest of the club is finished.

At that point, they can make trades or signings to fill 2/3 bullpen spots.

Moving Reed was the right thing to do - it may have been poorly executed, but moving him was smart. We probably couldn't have done better in July....that's when bullpen pitchers seem to have their top value.

 

This bullpen has had a lot of pressure on it all season long; it's tougher without any proven top-end guys. They give up 2 runs and people freak. They finally completely imploded.

[VAfan]

The plans was ,and you seem to be in the minority here, to build a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers . Players that do not usually fluctuate in performance as much as bullpen pieces do and to have enough money left over to cross that bullpen bridge when they got to that point of having that core in place. How long will it have been once the Cubs or Astro's or the Pirates or the Royal get to the playoffs ? How long has it been since the A's became winners for the last few years. Didn't you use the Indian's and Royals as an example of better bullpens ? Do you think they are going to make the playoffs ? Do you think they have a chance to win the World Series this year ? Yes the bullpen was not at the top of the list of priorities. Position players and starting pitching will always be given more priority. When you can come up with a formula for how to determine which bullpen pieces to acquire I will say a bullpen should be a priority. Until then you and Greg and Dick enjoy your w(h)ine.

 

Why is building a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers, AND having a plan for a competent bullpen MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE?? I guarantee that's NOT how Rick Hahn sees it. If he did -- if he had your approach -- he SHOULD be fired.

 

The simple fact is the Sox could have fielded a much better bullpen without spending a lot more money. Rick Hahn made some very bad investments, and took far too much risk hoping that Nate Jones could step into the closing role and everyone else would fall in behind him. For that, he deserves the fair criticism I've raised here.

 

Are you enjoying the Sox 2014 season????

[VAfan]

This x100000

 

Sox arent even done with that. One more starter and a couple more bats and then you can address the bullpen.

 

This is so absurd. Do you think Jerry Reinsdorf hired a GM who cant talk and chew gum at the same time? Baseball isn't a game where you throw away seasons because you can only do one thing at a time.

[VAfan]

I've tried this tactic with him. Brought up getting on those who critique Ventura in hindsight or 2nd guessing him and while he gets on Hahn. But he swears he isn't using hindsight, says he was critical of that trade from get go ,oops ,wait now its from the start of spring training thanks to SSk2 doing some detective work.

 

I was like fine so which plan have you advocated the Sox (Hahn) follow ? Contend every year , spend the max on payroll every year or Hahn's plan to build up the core 1st because its a rebuild and try for sustained success while limiting costs for but spending more for special occasions, because the Sox don't have a lot of things going for them financially to be able to do both at the same time. He danced around the question every time never giving a straight answer. Then he went on the attack trying to divert my attention from him onto me, but I know his M.O. so I didn't bite. I politely called him a guy who plays devil's advocate to stir the pot which others would call a troll. I'm not even as anti troll as most people on a message board are because it can generate conversation for Jason's sake and the sake of keeping Soxtalk around awhile it aint all bad .

 

I'm not on here all that much, so I don't know the history, but I think it's total BS to label a guy like Dick Allen a "troll" when he's been on Sox Talk longer than you have.

[Eminor3rd]

Why is building a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers, AND having a plan for a competent bullpen MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE?? I guarantee that's NOT how Rick Hahn sees it. If he did -- if he had your approach -- he SHOULD be fired.

 

The simple fact is the Sox could have fielded a much better bullpen without spending a lot more money. Rick Hahn made some very bad investments, and took far too much risk hoping that Nate Jones could step into the closing role and everyone else would fall in behind him. For that, he deserves the fair criticism I've raised here.

 

Are you enjoying the Sox 2014 season????

 

Dude this isn't Playstation. You can't just leave time paused until you complete all your deals. Of course he WISHES he had a great bullpen, too, but it was very rightfully NOT the top priority this offseason. You are being completely unreasonable expecting him to have fixed literally every part of this team. Marvel at the progress that was made, ALL of it theoretically sustainable, and look forward to more of it to come. I swear sometimes it feels like people follow sports JUST so they can have a scapegoat for something.