Dick Allen Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 You also have to think Dunn isn't going to be getting any better, but I don't think Butler is the answer. Pass on both. Moving forward, Alvarez has a lot more upside than either IMO, although Butler is probably more of a sure bet. But Alvarez is LH and could DH/1B. I also like the idea of Mourneau if the medical staff didn't have issue with his head injuries. He's put up good numbers outside of Coors this season, and used to be a beast. Although he is a few years older, it could be a similar thing to the Jermaine Dye signing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 08:13 AM) You also have to think Dunn isn't going to be getting any better, but I don't think Butler is the answer. Pass on both. Moving forward, Alvarez has a lot more upside than either IMO, although Butler is probably more of a sure bet. But Alvarez is LH and could DH/1B. I also like the idea of Mourneau if the medical staff didn't have issue with his head injuries. He's put up good numbers outside of Coors this season, and used to be a beast. Although he is a few years older, it could be a similar thing to the Jermaine Dye signing. I could support that. I also remember a pretty good offense in the mid 2000's that had Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Magglio, Frank Thomas, etc. If you have good hitters, you can get by. Would you like a lefty sure, but you shouldn't just sign a lesser player because he's a lefty. You can try to be creative to find that guy. For whatever reason I keep wondering if Carlos Gonzalez is a guy they are looking at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 09:56 AM) Sorry, Butler has been a better player then Dunn the past 4 seasons. This year Butler has had a down year though but Butler is a much more complete player then Dunn at the plate. Butler is actually capable of hitting good pitching, something I have pretty much zero faith in Dunn doing. Not by as much as you'd think, though, and Butler is definitely the one in a tailspin at the moment. Also, Butler would have to be acquired via trade. I don't think we should re-sign Dunn, I just wanted to point out that Billy Butler is a lot worse than the Soxtalk collective currently thinks, it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 10:12 AM) I've said it many times but your offense is going to struggle mightily when the run producer in the middle hits under .230. Butler will not do that and while we could use a lefty, I'd rather have good hitters then nothing. Billy Butler on this team is an upgrade over Adam Dunn. Is he a FA? If Sox made a move for him, they'd have to think he would rebound though because he has been flat out mediocre this year. So given the choice of Adam Dunn or Billy Butler for next year at DH, I'm taking Billy Butler. Now if money is significantly different you might get another answer but under zero scenario do I want Dunn around. Guy is a loser. The A's have primarily hit Donaldson and Moss 3-4. Their averages are .251 and .248. They have outscored the Angels (#2 in runs) by 24 runs this year. In fact, the A's only have 2 guys who have at least 196 plate appearances that are hitting better than .264. I think you just want productive hitters no matter how you can get them. Like I said, I'm not opposed to Butler, I just want the Sox to end up with a productive hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 10:22 AM) Not by as much as you'd think, though, and Butler is definitely the one in a tailspin at the moment. Also, Butler would have to be acquired via trade. I don't think we should re-sign Dunn, I just wanted to point out that Billy Butler is a lot worse than the Soxtalk collective currently thinks, it seems. You would have to figure Butler's option isn't getting picked up. But if the Royals make the playoffs, sometimes teams are more reluctant to let people go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 10:27 AM) You would have to figure Butler's option isn't getting picked up. But if the Royals make the playoffs, sometimes teams are more reluctant to let people go. That's an interesting question. Moore has shown no inclination to cut anyone who he thinks might be reasonably productive. But will Moore have a job? If they miss the playoffs he might be fired and then anything goes and I'd guess they would decline the option. But if they make the playoffs you figure he'd keep his job and might not want to lose Butler if he doesn't have a better option in the wings. Then there's also the "fan favorite" component. Yeah, interesting situation. Edited August 12, 2014 by Eminor3rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 08:22 AM) Not by as much as you'd think, though, and Butler is definitely the one in a tailspin at the moment. Also, Butler would have to be acquired via trade. I don't think we should re-sign Dunn, I just wanted to point out that Billy Butler is a lot worse than the Soxtalk collective currently thinks, it seems. By the way, I was just saying who I'd take over the two. Butler has not been good this year. Last year he was good (although it too was a regression from his previous 2 years). He is still on the right side of 30 (although not for long). Question is whether this is a downward trend or not and I don't know that answer. I just said if my options were Dunn or Butler, I'd rather go Butler (unless money was substantially different). I'm also less worked up over the NEED for a left handed bat. Right now I think the focus should continue to be to find good ball players and good hitters. If the difference at the deadline is a left handed bat, then try to acquire it, but if something isn't out there, don't force it. Maybe find a good platoon situation or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 08:27 AM) The A's have primarily hit Donaldson and Moss 3-4. Their averages are .251 and .248. They have outscored the Angels (#2 in runs) by 24 runs this year. In fact, the A's only have 2 guys who have at least 196 plate appearances that are hitting better than .264. I think you just want productive hitters no matter how you can get them. Like I said, I'm not opposed to Butler, I just want the Sox to end up with a productive hitter. I agree with that, however, I think you lose the ability to be productive, when you can't hit much at all, because I stick to my theory that at some point, you need get hitting to have a consistent offense and to be able to have a chance against the better teams and pitchers in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 11:14 AM) I could support that. I also remember a pretty good offense in the mid 2000's that had Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Magglio, Frank Thomas, etc. If you have good hitters, you can get by. Would you like a lefty sure, but you shouldn't just sign a lesser player because he's a lefty. You can try to be creative to find that guy. For whatever reason I keep wondering if Carlos Gonzalez is a guy they are looking at. It's also worth noting that offense faced 3 right-handed starters in the playoffs and a bunch of right handed relievers, with only 1 lefty appearing in the 3 games (Arthur Rhodes). That offense was then pretty effectively shut down in 3 games and slunk home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 08:53 AM) It's also worth noting that offense faced 3 right-handed starters in the playoffs and a bunch of right handed relievers, with only 1 lefty appearing in the 3 games (Arthur Rhodes). That offense was then pretty effectively shut down in 3 games and slunk home. Am I mistaking a year, but weren't those games against the Mariners mainly during the day in the shadows where it was extremely difficult to hit? I don't recall the Mariners scoring a bunch of runs against us. I do remember losing one of the games on an infield hit or something like that and Edgar had a homer or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 (edited) I created this thread about Alvarez. I'd love him as the primary DH next year and he could spell Abreu at 1B from time to time. I'd never trade Quintana for him though. Not a chance. Hopefully they could match up another way. Edited August 12, 2014 by Y2JImmy0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 12:21 PM) I created this thread about Alvarez. I'd love him as the primary DH next year and he could spell Abreu at 1B from time to time. I'd never trade Quintana for him though. Not a chance. Hopefully they could match up another way. Acquiring a player that only has value at DH or 1B doesn't make much sense to me. I'd much rather see someone that can play 3B/1B/DH (Gillaspie/Davidson) or CA/DH/1B (Victor Martinez) or OF/DH. That provides your team with much more depth and flexibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Personally, if his option isn't picked up which I'd say is around 50/50 right now, I think Billy Butler would be a great buy low candidate. I think playing half of his games at the K has really effected him. There's no doubt he's always been a great pure hitter, but with I think when his power numbers started to dip, he started to press and I think that is part of his struggles. You put Butler in the Cell playing half of his games, I think you could expect that HR power to jump back up to the 20's, if not closer to 30. However, while I do like Butler, I hate the idea of having a strict DH who is a clogger and liability in the field if he were to play the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 One guy who I was looking at who might be a solid option is Matt Holliday. The Cardinals need to find room for Piscotty, and Holliday is still a productive hitter even with a down season this year. Also, I think the goal is to compete in 2015, and adding someone with Holliday's age and postseason experience seems like it might be a good idea. Also, he can be used primarily as a DH here which might help slow down his aging process, but he isn't so bad defensively that he couldn't get 40-60 games out in LF to give this team more versatility and not be pigeon holed to sitting one of the best offensive players whenever they play in the NL. He is scheduled to make 17 million through 2016 with a team option for 17 mil in 2017, but its not like if he does age poorly we're stuck with him for 5 years. However, ideally any trade would involve John Danks going to St. Louis to offset salaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 11:21 AM) I created this thread about Alvarez. I'd love him as the primary DH next year and he could spell Abreu at 1B from time to time. I'd never trade Quintana for him though. Not a chance. Hopefully they could match up another way. If it was Alvarez, considering it was a 3 way trade, the Sox and Pirates don't match up perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysocks Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (striker @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 11:49 AM) Acquiring a player that only has value at DH or 1B doesn't make much sense to me. I'd much rather see someone that can play 3B/1B/DH (Gillaspie/Davidson) or CA/DH/1B (Victor Martinez) or OF/DH. That provides your team with much more depth and flexibility. Ditto, although I'm not sure I'd characterize V-Mart as a catcher anymore. And that's the way a lot of teams are going now. Using the slot to play matchups (Rays with Joyce/DeJesus/Forsythe) or get players with minor injuries into the lineup (Rangers with Choo). All those guys have played some-to-extensive innings in the field this year as well as significant time at DH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (shysocks @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 11:32 AM) Ditto, although I'm not sure I'd characterize V-Mart as a catcher anymore. And that's the way a lot of teams are going now. Using the slot to play matchups (Rays with Joyce/DeJesus/Forsythe) or get players with minor injuries into the lineup (Rangers with Choo). All those guys have played some-to-extensive innings in the field this year as well as significant time at DH. Ozzie was ahead of the curve in that way, however, his problem is that Timo was the guy that got the bulk of the AB's. I've always been a fan of having a rotating DH to play matchups and give guys rest. Not to mention it means you have more quality position players which tends to lead to more overall versatility and an improved ability to fight through injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 QUOTE (striker @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 11:49 AM) Acquiring a player that only has value at DH or 1B doesn't make much sense to me. I'd much rather see someone that can play 3B/1B/DH (Gillaspie/Davidson) or CA/DH/1B (Victor Martinez) or OF/DH. That provides your team with much more depth and flexibility. Disagree. Power is at a premium. The White Sox cannot get outslugged at US Cellular Field. He could hit 35 homers from the left side of the plate. He's also only 27. The downside is that Scott Boras is Alvarez's agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 11:09 AM) Am I mistaking a year, but weren't those games against the Mariners mainly during the day in the shadows where it was extremely difficult to hit? I don't recall the Mariners scoring a bunch of runs against us. I do remember losing one of the games on an infield hit or something like that and Edgar had a homer or two. Yeah that White Sox team scored 978 runs in 2000, tops in the league. They had a bad three-game stretch against Seattle. Give me the best hitters you can field regardless of handedness. Sure it would be better if you had a more balanced line-up, but great left-handed hitters are not just hitting free agency with regularity. Edited August 12, 2014 by maggsmaggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 10:09 AM) Am I mistaking a year, but weren't those games against the Mariners mainly during the day in the shadows where it was extremely difficult to hit? I don't recall the Mariners scoring a bunch of runs against us. I do remember losing one of the games on an infield hit or something like that and Edgar had a homer or two. I remember Mark Johnson not being on the roster (it was Josh Paul instead), Chad Bradford being in the bullpen...and I think it was a Carlos Guillen suicide squeeze that ended it if I'm not mistaken. As far as Butler goes, he was 800+ OPS-wise in June, slumped to .689 in July but has been on fire in August, coinciding with the winning streak and taking over 1st place. 991 so far through today. http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/6396/billy-butler You take Butler 100 times over Dunn, IMO. Even looking at Dunn coldly, from a purely statistical point of view the last three seasons...you can't override the bad taste of 2011, no matter what you do. One of the few things fans will remember about this season out of Adam is "Dallas Buyers Club" winning Academy Awards and his pitching performance (lower 80's). Edited August 12, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 09:56 AM) Sorry, Butler has been a better player then Dunn the past 4 seasons. This year Butler has had a down year though but Butler is a much more complete player then Dunn at the plate. Butler is actually capable of hitting good pitching, something I have pretty much zero faith in Dunn doing. Decided not to make a thread for this, so I'll just further hijack this thread.... I like pointing out fun facts, during todays game I randomly looked up Dunns batter vs pitcher stats against the Giants and noticed he really dominated some pretty damn good pitchers on that staff....Then I got to thinking about how he kills Kershaw, and wondered if there are more good pitchers out there that he does well against.....Surprisingly, there's quite a few good pitchers out there he smashes.... Cain .304/.385/.652 2 HRs Hudson .333/.368/.778 5 HRs Kershaw .615/.643/1.692 4 HRs Masterson- .295/.373/.432 1 HR Wainwright- .381/.552/.571 1 HR Dickey- .400/.471/.800 2HR King Felix .250/.438/.750 2 HR Cliff Lee .286/.400/.429 . 1HR Hammel .350/.381/.800 2HR Lester .273/.467/.545 1 HR Kuroda .278/.500/.556 1HR Colon .462/.467/.692 1HR Cy Chen .346/.469/.769 3HR Kluber .316/.409/.526 1HR All that reminded me of the bold part of your post.....It would appear Dunn CAN hit good pitching....Somewhat baffling. I made sure to only look at guys he's had more than 10 ABs against so the sample size is a little more than just a 1 for 3 or 2 for game. I really don't know what that all means but I found it rather interesting. Edited August 13, 2014 by scs787 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 12, 2014 -> 01:37 PM) Ozzie was ahead of the curve in that way, however, his problem is that Timo was the guy that got the bulk of the AB's. And Pierre.. and of course Mark Kotsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysocks Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 13, 2014 -> 12:55 AM) Decided not to make a thread for this, so I'll just further hijack this thread.... I like pointing out fun facts, during todays game I randomly looked up Dunns batter vs pitcher stats against the Giants and noticed he really dominated some pretty damn good pitchers on that staff....Then I got to thinking about how he kills Kershaw, and wondered if there are more good pitchers out there that he does well against.....Surprisingly, there's quite a few good pitchers out there he smashes.... Cain .304/.385/.652 2 HRs Hudson .333/.368/.778 5 HRs Kershaw .615/.643/1.692 4 HRs Masterson- .295/.373/.432 1 HR Wainwright- .381/.552/.571 1 HR Dickey- .400/.471/.800 2HR King Felix .250/.438/.750 2 HR Cliff Lee .286/.400/.429 . 1HR Hammel .350/.381/.800 2HR Lester .273/.467/.545 1 HR Kuroda .278/.500/.556 1HR Colon .462/.467/.692 1HR Cy Chen .346/.469/.769 3HR Kluber .316/.409/.526 1HR All that reminded me of the bold part of your post.....It would appear Dunn CAN hit good pitching....Somewhat baffling. I made sure to only look at guys he's had more than 10 ABs against so the sample size is a little more than just a 1 for 3 or 2 for game. I really don't know what that all means but I found it rather interesting. They obviously just had bad days when Dunn did his damage against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) Pedro Alvarez has 24 K's in 36 career AB's against the Tigers. (6 of 8 times in the current series). Don't think that's the solution when chasing a division rival. Although they don't have the same Verlander and Scherzer's likely to be gone in 2015. Edited August 14, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 14, 2014 -> 01:25 PM) Pedro Alvarez has 24 K's in 36 career AB's against the Tigers. (6 of 8 times in the current series). Don't think that's the solution when chasing a division rival. Although they don't have the same Verlander and Scherzer's likely to be gone in 2015. http://books.google.com/books?id=VsmnfVUKJ...ine&f=false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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