Boopa1219 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 25, 2014 -> 10:23 PM) The odds of a current major leage contributing are so much incredibly higher than any draft pick, it isn't even funny. We benefit WAY more by the guys that are here learning the lessons they need, than we do picking five picks higher. I want the highest draft pick possible, this year was never about wins or losses but the development of its young players and looking at the seasom I would call it a success. To me they're still rebuilding and wont be competitive till 2016 at the earliest and while there have been great strides made in the scouting and player development department since Hahn took over from Kenny, (With the hiring of Marco Paddy, the past three draft classes (Hawkins, Anderson, amd Rodon)) the farm system is not as deep as we think it is and in my opinion and it still could desperately use another top 5 pick/INTL bonus pool to really cement the overall long term health of the franchise. Im not saying your guaranteed to draft a great player when you have a high pick (Gordon Beckham, Josh Fields, Joe Borchard, Bryan Anderson), but when you have a higher pick you have more money to spend in the draft and the INTL market, so your chances of getting a great player in your farm system is greater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (dpd9189 @ Aug 25, 2014 -> 11:43 PM) I admire your optimism but Semien wasn't even ranked in the White Sox top 20 prospects that MLB.com put out last month. Tim Anderson is the guy to keep an eye on. That would be because Semien has lost his rookie prospect eligibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 05:16 AM) Yeah, I wouldn't count on that. Baez's ceiling is way higher than Semien's. The only way Semien has a better/longer major league career is due to each of their plate disciplines. Semien has a ton, and Baez has virtually none. I would say Semien has the higher floor, Baez has the higher ceiling. a great answer, I now have an answer to my unasked question that's been bothering me for yrs. after rereading this, this may come across like a jerk, but I am serious about the question and your statement ties up a great discussion. Edited August 26, 2014 by LDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 05:47 AM) I want the highest draft pick possible, this year was never about wins or losses but the development of its young players and looking at the seasom I would call it a success. To me they're still rebuilding and wont be competitive till 2016 at the earliest and while there have been great strides made in the scouting and player development department since Hahn took over from Kenny, (With the hiring of Marco Paddy, the past three draft classes (Hawkins, Anderson, amd Rodon)) the farm system is not as deep as we think it is and in my opinion and it still could desperately use another top 5 pick/INTL bonus pool to really cement the overall long term health of the franchise. Im not saying your guaranteed to draft a great player when you have a high pick (Gordon Beckham, Josh Fields, Joe Borchard, Bryan Anderson), but when you have a higher pick you have more money to spend in the draft and the INTL market, so your chances of getting a great player in your farm system is greater. having the higher draft pick does help in the selection of the elite prospects. look at this past draft, what would have happen if the sox would have picked 10, no Rodon. Look at the sCrubs farm system they are loaded. as of today with what we see for next yr draft, there is a difference between Michael Matuella and any predicted pitcher outside the top 10. it is huge. so yes I want to have the sox do good, but my selfish side wants them to bomb, for the higher draft pick. second re: Beckham, I really like him but he was good enuf to make it to the majors, but as of today, he stalled. I went back to look at his draft class, how many other prospect was there after is selection that did great? I know I am talking about hindsight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (Knuckles @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 05:27 AM) Does either one have a 16000sq ft house in AZ ? ?????? some help pls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glangon Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 11:48 AM) second re: Beckham, I really like him but he was good enuf to make it to the majors, but as of today, he stalled. I went back to look at his draft class, how many other prospect was there after is selection that did great? I know I am talking about hindsight. If you are talking hindsight, then lets look at the number 10 pick - Jason Castro, our catching issues would be resolved if we drafted him. Or how about the number 19 pick Andrew Cashner who has pitched really well recently with the Padres. The supplemental picks that year included Lance Lynn who is pitching really well for the Cardinals and a certain left handed third baseman called Conor Gillaspie. If you could predict these crap shoots then you'd be in a job for years to come. For reference Craig Kimbrel went in the 3rd Round, Dee Gordon in the 4th Round Anthony Rendon went in the 27th Round and Yan Gomes went in the 39th Round all of them did better than Kyle Skipworth who was drafted 6th by the Marlins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (glangon @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 06:07 AM) If you are talking hindsight, then lets look at the number 10 pick - Jason Castro, our catching issues would be resolved if we drafted him. Or how about the number 19 pick Andrew Cashner who has pitched really well recently with the Padres. The supplemental picks that year included Lance Lynn who is pitching really well for the Cardinals and a certain left handed third baseman called Conor Gillaspie. If you could predict these crap shoots then you'd be in a job for years to come. For reference Craig Kimbrel went in the 3rd Round, Dee Gordon in the 4th Round Anthony Rendon went in the 27th Round and Yan Gomes went in the 39th Round all of them did better than Kyle Skipworth who was drafted 6th by the Marlins. Castro had a huge 2013, but in 2012 & 2014 combined, Tyler Flowers has put up the exact same WAR that Castro has in 30 less games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 25, 2014 -> 11:51 PM) I want to ask you. Throw out all these metrics. You watched him play for these many ways. Do you personally feel ... do your eyes tell you Gordon Beckham was IN ANY WAY a valuable member of the White Sox? Like I said if he is a good No. 8 pick throughout history, then baseball GMs are worst than I thought. But please answer my personal question, this time using no metrics at all. Your opinion of Gordon Beckham from what you saw .... and others that cite stats that say he's good please comment as well. What in the hell are you talking about? People have explained this to you already, what their eyes saw and what the numbers say. Why are you dwelling on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 25, 2014 -> 09:25 PM) With all due respect, Beckham is a great argument against advanced stats. You can't tell me he was valuable to the White Sox in any way during his tenure. You can't tell me we couldn't have had a different second baseman every one of those years with the same impact on the team. Some minimum salary free agent each year. I mean, cmon. If Beckham is considered valuable in any way, that advanced stat is just WRONG. Seriously. There has to be some value to the eye test and the common stat. Beckham was a lousy No. 8 draft pick. If he's better than most, than teams have drafted poorly at No. 8 that is FOR SURE. Enough is enough. How can anybody say Beckham was valuable in any way? He was a decent to good fielder who couldn't hit a lick. Why do we need WAR to tell us some fib?? Greg, wtf are you talking about? Please read the following carefully: Gordon Beckham is a below average major league player by any statistic, both advanced and traditional. The only reason people are saying he is better than most #8 picks is because most #8 picks don't ever even make it to the Majors. The whole point being made is that even holding down a job as a mediocre player is something of an accomplishment. This has NOTHING to do with advanced metrics. I've never come across anyone who can hold a personal grudge against something as consistently as you. I mean seriously, if your car won't start, do you blame WAR? Do you blame Adam Dunn? Edited August 26, 2014 by Eminor3rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glangon Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 01:02 PM) Castro had a huge 2013, but in 2012 & 2014 combined, Tyler Flowers has put up the exact same WAR that Castro has in 30 less games. Which is still better than Beckham who we are comparing him to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 08:22 AM) Greg, wtf are you talking about? Please read the following carefully: Gordon Beckham is a below average major league player by any statistic, both advanced and traditional. The only reason people are saying he is better than most #8 picks is because most #8 picks don't ever even make it to the Majors. The whole point being made is that even holding down a job as a mediocre player is something of an accomplishment. This has NOTHING to do with advanced metrics. I've never come across anyone who can hold a personal grudge against something as consistently as you. I mean seriously, if your car won't start, do you blame WAR? Do you blame Adam Dunn? There's a hair in my buger! GODDAMMIT ADAM DUNN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (glangon @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 08:31 AM) Which is still better than Beckham who we are comparing him to. That is true. I was just questioning how resolved our catcher issue would be given that Castro has really only been better than Flowers once in the past 3 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (glangon @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 11:07 AM) If you are talking hindsight, then lets look at the number 10 pick - Jason Castro, our catching issues would be resolved if we drafted him. Or how about the number 19 pick Andrew Cashner who has pitched really well recently with the Padres. The supplemental picks that year included Lance Lynn who is pitching really well for the Cardinals and a certain left handed third baseman called Conor Gillaspie. If you could predict these crap shoots then you'd be in a job for years to come. For reference Craig Kimbrel went in the 3rd Round, Dee Gordon in the 4th Round Anthony Rendon went in the 27th Round and Yan Gomes went in the 39th Round all of them did better than Kyle Skipworth who was drafted 6th by the Marlins. yeah you are right, I should have clarify, I was meaning 1 rounders. now with Cashner, I was debating about him. picking Beckman was the higher rated. re: Costro I totally forgot about him. you are right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Hey greg, thanks for killing any intelligent discussion in this thread. Signed Soxtalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 09:06 AM) Hey greg, thanks for killing any intelligent discussion in this thread. Signed Soxtalk. Yeeesh. Aren't you an admin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 01:22 PM) Greg, wtf are you talking about? Please read the following carefully: Gordon Beckham is a below average major league player by any statistic, both advanced and traditional. The only reason people are saying he is better than most #8 picks is because most #8 picks don't ever even make it to the Majors. The whole point being made is that even holding down a job as a mediocre player is something of an accomplishment. This has NOTHING to do with advanced metrics. I've never come across anyone who can hold a personal grudge against something as consistently as you. I mean seriously, if your car won't start, do you blame WAR? Do you blame Adam Dunn? Thanks. I am glad all metrics indicate he is a below average player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 From yesterday, the Sox gained 0.5 games on.... Texas, Rockies, Red Sox, Phillies. Only team that the Sox lost 0.5 games on yesterday was... Houston. Sox are now 8 GB of the #1 pick, and 4.5 GB of the #5 pick. They sit at #10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) From yesterday, the Sox gained 0.5 games on.... Texas, Rockies, Red Sox, Phillies. Only team that the Sox lost 0.5 games on yesterday was... Houston. Sox are now 8 GB of the #1 pick, and 4.5 GB of the #5 pick. They sit at #10. Should be #9 (for this year's teams, #10 if you include both Astros' picks)...as long as they finish at 9 or 10, they're okay And the Cubs, Phillies, Twins are all getting within range. Mets and SD are still ahead (behind) since we started to fall apart. Btw, the White Sox are now tied for fifth worse runs scored/allowed differential in the majors. We could easily be 2nd worst within another week of atrocious play. 1. Texas -137 2. Arizona -97 3. Houston -93 Boston -93 5. White Sox -72 Colorado -72 7. Cubs -46 Edited August 26, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 09:24 AM) Yeeesh. Aren't you an admin? Don't confuse this site with WSI. I think they've given up over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 If the draft was held tonight, the Sox would be picking 8th (7th worst record, but Astros picking twice). The Twins choked that game away, or else the Sox would have been up to the 7th pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 26, 2014 -> 11:02 PM) If the draft was held tonight, the Sox would be picking 8th (7th worst record, but Astros picking twice). The Twins choked that game away, or else the Sox would have been up to the 7th pick. I'm waiting until the games finish to update the thread, but we can do no better than the 8th pick tonight. Rangers, Rockies, Dbacks are all losing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 Yesterday's win cost us a spot in the draft. We have now slid down to 9th. 8 GB of the #1 pick, and 5 GB of the #5 pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 06:05 PM) Yesterday's win cost us a spot in the draft. We have now slid down to 9th. 8 GB of the #1 pick, and 5 GB of the #5 pick. oh man, I agree with the way it is confusing feelings. part of me say yeah the sox won but the other part is crying b/c we lost ground for a higher draft pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 Sox gained a game on.... Minnesota and Houston. Sox still sit with the #9 pick. 8 GB of the #1 pick, and 4 GB of the #5 pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 12:37 AM) Sox gained a game on.... Minnesota and Houston. Sox still sit with the #9 pick. 8 GB of the #1 pick, and 4 GB of the #5 pick. The 5th overall pick in the draft would be nice. Sox would be guaranteed 1 of Bickford, Aiken, Matuella, Cameron, or Kirby. There are some other good HS players too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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