Ferguson Riots

[DrunkBomber]

I have never at any point said the bolded part, anywhere, but you saw fit to make that judgment (don't bother insulting my intelligence by saying I wasn't included in that statement either).

Wtf are you talking about lol. Ive always found you to be a pretty straight shooter and if I preface something by saying Im not directing it at anyone then thats the truth. I didnt even read this whole thread, the thought came to me while listening to two people argue about this over the weekend. Im essentially condemning both sides as well for being close minded so its weird that you got defensive about what I said. I can assure you that I couldnt care less about offending people on the internet and if I want to call someone out for saying something stupid I will. For example my first post genuinely had nothing to do with whatever youve posted in this thread but your reaction to it and use of the term "dont question my intelligence" is indeed stupid.

[Texsox]

We see what a small segment of the police force and a small segment of the community are capable of. No wonder there is no trust between the two groups.

[lostfan]

Wtf are you talking about lol. Ive always found you to be a pretty straight shooter and if I preface something by saying Im not directing it at anyone then thats the truth. I didnt even read this whole thread, the thought came to me while listening to two people argue about this over the weekend. Im essentially condemning both sides as well for being close minded so its weird that you got defensive about what I said. I can assure you that I couldnt care less about offending people on the internet and if I want to call someone out for saying something stupid I will. For example my first post genuinely had nothing to do with whatever youve posted in this thread but your reaction to it and use of the term "dont question my intelligence" is indeed stupid.

edit: MY BAD I'M STUPID AND THAT REPLY WASN'T INTENDED FOR YOU RAGEEEEEE

 

-The Ferguson police wouldn't tell anything about why Brown was shot. Doing this way back on Saturday or Sunday of last week would've gone a long way towards avoiding this entirely, but

-The Ferguson PD's version of events makes no sense - if the officer stopping him in the street makes no sense why'd they release the video if it had nothing to do with the shooting?

-Even if he had stolen the cigars, or robbed the store, that doesn't explain how and why he was shot (and to a lot of people - "he was a thug and a criminal" is enough of an explanation for why he should be dead - how much of a model citizen do you have to be to not be shot?)

-The police exacerbated the protests, making it up as they went along and violating people's constitutional rights.

-I'm very uncomfortable with local police having military equipment and not knowing how to use it

-and yes, a great deal of commentary I've seen online has been inherently racist and inflammatory.

 

This is all part of a general problem I have with overly aggressive police, which is difficult for anyone to understand who isn't black and lived in a major city. That's another topic for another day, the war on drugs, etc. etc. etc. The police in the area I live aren't like that, I've never had a DWB type incident and they treat me with respect and like a human being when they want something from me instead of grabbing me and throwing me against the hood of their car and screaming at me. Have that happen to you enough times and it takes a toll.

Edited August 18, 2014 by lostfan

[Texsox]

Thanks LF, I've been struggling with understanding the violence that is happening. It is easy to see this community as thugs. A few people describe him as a good kid and then we see the video. If this is a good kid in the community, what do you have to do to be a bad kid? I'm clearly a liberal who finds it easier to follow the teachings of Gandhi or Dr. King.

 

But you point out experiences that I can't possibly understand. I can understand being ignored and followed in stores because it happens to me. I understand being passed over for jobs because I am not the majority. I've seen first hand friends being treated unfairly because of their skin color, but my outrage was always tempered by their shrug of the shoulders and moving on. But I've never been harassed by cops because of the color of my skin.

[caulfield12]

Has there ever been an example in recent history of an African-American officer shooting an unarmed white 20 year-old in a majority white area or suburb, for ostensibly walking in the middle of the road/blocking traffic?

Edited August 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[lostfan]

Has there ever been an example in recent history of an African-American officer shooting an unarmed white 20 year-old in a majority white area or suburb, for ostensibly walking in the middle of the road/blocking traffic?

I don't know off-hand, but I'm sure it has, and that's f***ed up too. This is less about race for me and more about accountability.

 

MAYBE Brown actually did go for the cop's gun and the cop was actually in danger, in which case his use of lethal force was authorized. How do we know though? We have a guy who has a clear interest in trying to justify it that way so that's what he'll say automatically, and he also has a system designed to back him up. On the other hand we have a dead guy. That's why I think cameras on the dash and/or the lapel are the way to go. Can't tell me they can't afford that but they can afford armored vehicles and other s*** in a town of 21,000.

[DrunkBomber]

Corrupt/abusive police are definitely a huge problem. I always think back to that huge chicago cop who roughed up that small female bartender a few years ago. He didnt even receive jail time for this and the police tried to cover it up. Just to think if someone lays their hand on a cop for whatever reason it is a felony, but theyre not held to the same standard? Because of the nature of their jobs and the power they have I think police should be held to the highest standards and should face more severe penalties when they are violating the laws our tax dollars pay them to protect. Its sad that in this day and age we might need to have police officers on camera anytime they do something but something needs to change.

[caulfield12]

Thanks LF, I've been struggling with understanding the violence that is happening. It is easy to see this community as thugs. A few people describe him as a good kid and then we see the video. If this is a good kid in the community, what do you have to do to be a bad kid? I'm clearly a liberal who finds it easier to follow the teachings of Gandhi or Dr. King.

 

But you point out experiences that I can't possibly understand. I can understand being ignored and followed in stores because it happens to me. I understand being passed over for jobs because I am not the majority. I've seen first hand friends being treated unfairly because of their skin color, but my outrage was always tempered by their shrug of the shoulders and moving on. But I've never been harassed by cops because of the color of my skin.

 

We also don't know about what exactly was said by the store owner/clerk that day...I'm not saying anything justifies intimidating someone and walking out with cigars and not paying for them, but even the convenience store video has another side to it probably.

 

With that said, America is based on the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. Of course, we all know of high-profile cases that appeared to be "slam dunks" moved away from the community where events transpired and not-guilty verdicts remarkably returned.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

I don't know off-hand, but I'm sure it has, and that's f***ed up too. This is less about race for me and more about accountability.

 

MAYBE Brown actually did go for the cop's gun and the cop was actually in danger, in which case his use of lethal force was authorized. How do we know though? We have a guy who has a clear interest in trying to justify it that way so that's what he'll say automatically, and he also has a system designed to back him up. On the other hand we have a dead guy. That's why I think cameras on the dash and/or the lapel are the way to go. Can't tell me they can't afford that but they can afford armored vehicles and other s*** in a town of 21,000.

 

 

I'm pretty sure those were the county vehicles, but maybe I'm wrong...but not specifically earmarked for Ferguson but general use in a larger area.

[caulfield12]

Corrupt/abusive police are definitely a huge problem. I always think back to that huge chicago cop who roughed up that small female bartender a few years ago. He didnt even receive jail time for this and the police tried to cover it up. Just to think if someone lays their hand on a cop for whatever reason it is a felony, but theyre not held to the same standard? Because of the nature of their jobs and the power they have I think police should be held to the highest standards and should face more severe penalties when they are violating the laws our tax dollars pay them to protect. Its sad that in this day and age we might need to have police officers on camera anytime they do something but something needs to change.

 

 

Many schools and daycare centers around the world require them, and an incident where a child ends up dying or being abused in that environment has to be 10X rarer than a violent confrontation in an urban community, whether it's black, Hispanic or immigrant-dominated.

 

It sucks for those teachers to feel like they're not trusted or constantly under the microscope, and a private school is different than a public police force which is funded by tax dollars...but that's probably the way it's going to have to be. If you don't want the scrutiny, you probably shouldn't become a law enforcement officer.

 

I feel like police officers are not unlike baseball umpires. Probably 90-95% of them are good at their job or excellent, but the bad/negligent (or corrupt in the case of officers) 5-10% or whatever that number is ruin it for everyone else.

 

It's the same thing with rioters/protesters. It's not the majority, it's probably that same 5-10% or outsiders or others trying to exploit the situation...in fact, last night the protesters stopped the looters from taking any more than they did, and that could have been a life-threatening situation since the police weren't attempting to intervene.

Edited August 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[2nd_city_saint787]

Not sure this has been posted, but it makes things very interesting.

 

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eye...guson-shooting/

 

Him laying there for hours is still a head scratcher though, and the protests obviously should have been handled differently as well. Only way I can spin the whole protesting thing is I can imagine it'd be hard to differentiate peaceful protesters and the others out there who were looting and vandalizing police cars and such things like that. When you have gobs of people on the street late at night you don't really know what's going to happen.....Again, let me reiterate that I did say it should have been handled differently, just trying to make some kind of sense to it.

[Quin]

Autopsy said Brown was shot 6 times, no gunshot residue on the body.

 

Rioting happening again.

 

Friend told me that he needs proper identification to get past an intersection and to his house. Guns pointed at the intersection.

[greg775]

This is getting very scary. Missouri national guard has been called in.

The situation is so bizarre. By day, when the sun is out, Ferguson is an inspiring place. All the people love Ron Johnson, the new police chief, who gave a great, impassioned speech.

Then night falls and all hell breaks loose. If you read twitter, people at night suddenly don't believe Mr. Johnson when he says outsider thugs are shooting guns, throwing molotov cocktails, blocking streets, looting. At night, they say he's lying, that the police are flipping teargas canisters at peaceable people.

 

The problem as I see it is some of the responsible, upstanding citizen protestors who protest during the day, continue protesting at night, between 8 o clock and the midnight curfew. But thrown into the evening mix are thugs from other towns, gang members, intent on causing havoc. Looting, etc.

So when Mr. Johnson reacts with teargas, now all of a sudden some little kids are getting gassed, some good people (protestors) are getting gassed. And all the people that suddenly don't believe Mr. Johnson (about the thugs causing trouble) are claiming police brutality. Personally I think the law abiding protestors should stay in the safety of their own homes after 6 p.m., and let the police take care of the criminals causing illegal trouble! I realize the good people have a right to protest. I'd say do so at the formal rallies during the day. Stay in your safe homes at night.

 

This problem scares me as if the National Guard comes in and kicks some ass, when does this outrage spread to other cities? This situation is a powerderkeg. People are very mad in America about economic disparity and other things.

I'm glad people aren't getting organized and rioting all over the country.

 

I don't blame Mr. Obama for taking a well deserved vacation, but I think the timing was unfortunate on this vacation. What's going on in Ferguson, Missouri is a crisis and a national disgrace. Something has to be done.

That cop has to be charged with something significant and fast. The National Guard ... I dunno. It might make matters worse.

Edited August 18, 2014 by greg775

[farmteam]

John Oliver talked about Ferguson last night, and specifically about police militarization

 

 

EDIT: Interesting point about how the police should never be pointing their guns at a person unless prepared to fire. Starts a bit after 10:00

Edited August 18, 2014 by farmteam

[Texsox]

Molotov cocktails? Has anyone seen stats on how many arrests have been to out of town people?

[caulfield12]

Does anyone know of any white/suburban community where the percentage of African-American officers is 94.3%. That would be the equivalent of the situation in Ferguson.

 

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY mostly white/suburban community where the percentage of minority officers was even 15-25%. Does anyone know of a single example???

 

 

In the predominantly black St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, where the shooting occurred, many residents say they have long been harassed and intimidated by the police department, which has just three black officers on its 53-member force. They also have no confidence in McCulloch, who has been a prosecutor since 1991.

 

"He's not going to prosecute the police officers," said Robert Fowler, a 48-year-old electrician. "In the ghetto ... every police officer, he's letting go free. They call it justifiable homicide."

 

Part of the skepticism stems from McCulloch's past. He comes from a family of police officers and, in 1964 when McCulloch was 12 years old, his father was fatally shot while responding to a call. Others point to a 2001 case, where McCulloch brought no charges against two officers who fired 21 shots into a vehicle, killing two black men during an attempted drug arrest.

 

A McCulloch spokesman told The Associated Press the prosecutor has no plans to step aside from the Brown case.

 

"The people of this county have placed their trust in me," McCulloch told TV station KMOV. "I've been as fair and impartial and done as thorough of a job as we could."

 

Nasheed started an online petition and got more than 15,000 signatures within two days seeking a special prosecutor.

 

"In the past, justice has not been achieved in these types of police shootings," said Clay, who represents the area. "So I have no comfort with local-authority prosecution, the judicial system or even police conducting a thorough and conclusive investigation that delivers justice to family of Michael Brown."

 

"Simply put: he has a natural bias," Chappelle-Nadal, the local state senator, said of McCulloch. "My community doesn't trust him."

 

Although it was not a racially charged scenario, Missouri does have a recent case in which a special prosecutor took over a highly publicized case.

 

Last October, a prosecutor in rural northwest Missouri asked a judge to appoint a special prosecutor after public concerns that he didn't do enough before dropping felony charges against a teenage boy accused of sexually assaulting a younger girl. A judge appointed a Kansas City area prosecutor to take a new look at the case, and Matthew Barnett pleaded guilty in January to misdemeanor child endangerment.

___

 

www.yahoo.com/news

Edited August 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[cabiness42]

Summary:

 

1. Almost entirely white police force in mostly black community builds up tension over years

2. White police officer shoots and kills unarmed black teen, apparently with no cause

3. Majority of community attempts to organize peaceful demonstrations and calls for justice

4. Small minority loots and riots, forcing the police to crack down on everybody, including the peaceful majority

5. Peaceful majority gets further disenfranchised

 

So yeah, the majority of peaceful and law-abiding people in Ferguson are getting s*** on from both sides.

[RockRaines]

Autopsy said Brown was shot 6 times, no gunshot residue on the body.

 

Rioting happening again.

 

Friend told me that he needs proper identification to get past an intersection and to his house. Guns pointed at the intersection.

All entered from the front. So much for 50 percent of the posts on the previous page. Also the residue from the shot in the car would be on his clothes. And the shot through the top of the head suggest charging at the police.

 

So lots of counterpoints to the innocent surrendering individual argument.

[caulfield12]

All entered from the front. So much for 50 percent of the posts on the previous page. Also the residue from the shot in the car would be on his clothes. And the shot through the top of the head suggest charging at the police.

 

So lots of counterpoints to the innocent surrendering individual argument.

 

 

How would he get shot through the top of the head, then make it out of the car and get shot 5 more times? (Never mind, see below).

 

That doesn't make sense. That's a "kill shot" 99% of the time.

 

Did they find any gunshot reside from a close-range shot or not?

 

 

 

FERGUSON, Mo. — Michael Brown, the unarmed black teenager who was killed by a police officer, sparking protests around the nation, was shot at least six times, including twice in the head, a preliminary private autopsy performed on Sunday found.

 

One of the bullets entered the top of Mr. Brown’s skull, suggesting his head was bent forward when it struck him and caused a fatal injury, according to Dr. Michael M. Baden, the former chief medical examiner for the City of New York, who flew to Missouri on Sunday at the family’s request to conduct the separate autopsy. It was likely the last of bullets to hit him, he said.

 

Mr. Brown, 18, was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired into his front.

 

The bullets did not appear to have been shot from very close range because no gunpowder was present on his body. However, that determination could change if it turns out that there is gunshot residue on Mr. Brown’s clothing, to which Dr. Baden did not have access.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/micha...st-6-times.html

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[LittleHurt05]

How would he get shot through the top of the head, then make it out of the car and get shot 5 more times?

 

That doesn't make sense. That's a "kill shot" 99% of the time.

 

Did they find any gunshot reside from a close-range shot or not?

 

I believe this was a private autopsy so they didn't have any other evidence like his clothes. The local authorities and the federal government are both performing autopsies, but no results have been provided from those yet.

[Balta1701]

And the shot through the top of the head suggest charging at the police.

This shot could also suggest that he was kneeling down as has been claimed by some of the witnesses as well.

 

At least personally, I can't figure out how I'd be "charging" at someone with my head pointed downwards. They'd step to the side and I wouldn't see where I was charging. I guess it could be that he was getting shot at and ducked his head in response.

[RockRaines]

How would he get shot through the top of the head, then make it out of the car and get shot 5 more times?

 

That doesn't make sense. That's a "kill shot" 99% of the time.

 

Did they find any gunshot reside from a close-range shot or not?

Huh? The shot in the head was the last shot.

[RockRaines]

This shot could also suggest that he was kneeling down as has been claimed by some of the witnesses as well.

 

At least personally, I can't figure out how I'd be "charging" at someone with my head pointed downwards. They'd step to the side and I wouldn't see where I was charging. I guess it could be that he was getting shot at and ducked his head in response.

If you are running at someone your chin would most likely be pointing down since you would have body lean forward.

[Balta1701]

If you are running at someone your chin would most likely be pointing down since you would have body lean forward.

But to know where you're running you also would have to have your eyes aimed upward at the person. At the very least, it is equally consistent with a person on their knees and perhaps the angle of impact might tell something.

[StrangeSox]

they could also be consistent with him falling down and forward as he was shot