Ferguson Riots

[caulfield12]

How many of them were robbing a convenience store right before their confrontation. How many of them got physical with a cop on his own.

 

 

Well, I think it's already been established the convenience store situation happened at least 4 hours in advance and the arresting officer had no clue about that.

 

Plenty of them have gotten physical...although I think in a large percentage of these cases, the player was "Don't you know who I am? Don't you recognize me?" and maybe that kicks in a bit of a different standard of treatment/CYA.

 

 

Robbing a convenience store? It's not like he went in there with a .38 special and shot the clerk and stole all the money in the register.

[RockRaines]

He had pot in his body! Gang-banger thug. Case closed.

 

 

Sigh.

Did the toxicology report come out? If anything that should have calmed him down.

[cabiness42]

Or your teenager daughter sneaking in at night after curfew, or vice-versa.

 

OK, in 8 years, when my kids are teenagers, I will revise my policy.

[cabiness42]

Would you at least yell out, "Identify yourself or you are going down?" To see if for some reason your drunken uncle didn't come over unexpectedly? I like your attitude though. No thugs should be in your house. I don't blame u for shooting 'em.

 

I don't live near any family. Nobody that I know is unexpectedly coming over and breaking in.

 

Yes, I will tell the intruder that (s)he needs to slowly back out of the house or (s)he is getting shot.

[illinilaw08]

Well my teen SON knows I have a gun and will shoot to defend myself and them, so when I say "I am armed and will shoot you", he would know from simple self preservation to say "dad, it's me!", or something similar.

 

I had a friend whose house was broken into... by a drunk teen who was sneaking his was back into the wrong house. Unfortunately, drunk teens are difficult to reason with. Fortunately, my friend didn't shoot the kid when he wouldn't leave the house.

 

Like anything else, break-ins involve shades of grey. My personal opinion is that people are too quick to shoot first without attempting to assess the level of the threat.

 

On Michael Brown: (1) to Jenks, if the police can afford a tank, they can afford to put cameras on dashboards. That is in everyone's best interest - both to protect from bad officers who abuse their authority, and to protect the city from frivolous lawsuits.

 

(2) There's a reason that certain neighborhoods have bad relationships with the police. When I was a prosecutor, we received lots of drug complaints - all from one or two neighborhoods - that started with something along the lines of "Suspect failed to signal before changing lanes" or "Suspect riding bike without light." Naturally, those ended with an arrest for drug possession. Strangely, you didn't hear about those types of traffic spots in affluent areas.

 

(3) There are amazing officers who act by the book and selflessly put their lives on the line every single day. But recognize that their are bad apples out there. And, as Jenks said, in a court of law, juries have a tendency to give an officer's testimony greater weight for no reason other than the uniform they are wearing.

 

The point here is simple. Police outreach to communities is huge. As with the second example above, you have a bigger influence on the community when you are working to make things better rather than working to improve stats.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I had a friend whose house was broken into... by a drunk teen who was sneaking his was back into the wrong house. Unfortunately, drunk teens are difficult to reason with. Fortunately, my friend didn't shoot the kid when he wouldn't leave the house.

 

Like anything else, break-ins involve shades of grey. My personal opinion is that people are too quick to shoot first without attempting to assess the level of the threat.

On Michael Brown: (1) to Jenks, if the police can afford a tank, they can afford to put cameras on dashboards. That is in everyone's best interest - both to protect from bad officers who abuse their authority, and to protect the city from frivolous lawsuits.

 

(2) There's a reason that certain neighborhoods have bad relationships with the police. When I was a prosecutor, we received lots of drug complaints - all from one or two neighborhoods - that started with something along the lines of "Suspect failed to signal before changing lanes" or "Suspect riding bike without light." Naturally, those ended with an arrest for drug possession. Strangely, you didn't hear about those types of traffic spots in affluent areas.

 

(3) There are amazing officers who act by the book and selflessly put their lives on the line every single day. But recognize that their are bad apples out there. And, as Jenks said, in a court of law, juries have a tendency to give an officer's testimony greater weight for no reason other than the uniform they are wearing.

 

The point here is simple. Police outreach to communities is huge. As with the second example above, you have a bigger influence on the community when you are working to make things better rather than working to improve stats.

 

They aren't tanks, they are MRAP's, and the DOD is literally giving them away for free to communities that will take them FWIW.

[Jenksismyhero]

Did the toxicology report come out? If anything that should have calmed him down.

 

Information from the med. examiners report has been "leaked."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-na...-in-his-system/

[southsider2k5]

I half expect with three autopsies, that there will be three different versions of what happened.

[Balta1701]

They aren't tanks, they are MRAP's, and the DOD is literally giving them away for free to communities that will take them FWIW.

Apparently the form to acquire one of those is 1 page long.

[southsider2k5]

Apparently the form to acquire one of those is 1 page long.

 

I can say from my experience, it is hard to give it back than it is to get it.

[Rowand44]

I half expect with three autopsies, that there will be three different versions of what happened.

I actually fully expect that to happen.

[Jenksismyhero]

I had a friend whose house was broken into... by a drunk teen who was sneaking his was back into the wrong house. Unfortunately, drunk teens are difficult to reason with. Fortunately, my friend didn't shoot the kid when he wouldn't leave the house.

 

Like anything else, break-ins involve shades of grey. My personal opinion is that people are too quick to shoot first without attempting to assess the level of the threat.

 

On Michael Brown: (1) to Jenks, if the police can afford a tank, they can afford to put cameras on dashboards. That is in everyone's best interest - both to protect from bad officers who abuse their authority, and to protect the city from frivolous lawsuits.

 

(2) There's a reason that certain neighborhoods have bad relationships with the police. When I was a prosecutor, we received lots of drug complaints - all from one or two neighborhoods - that started with something along the lines of "Suspect failed to signal before changing lanes" or "Suspect riding bike without light." Naturally, those ended with an arrest for drug possession. Strangely, you didn't hear about those types of traffic spots in affluent areas.

 

(3) There are amazing officers who act by the book and selflessly put their lives on the line every single day. But recognize that their are bad apples out there. And, as Jenks said, in a court of law, juries have a tendency to give an officer's testimony greater weight for no reason other than the uniform they are wearing.

 

The point here is simple. Police outreach to communities is huge. As with the second example above, you have a bigger influence on the community when you are working to make things better rather than working to improve stats.

 

There are multiple reasons for this though. 1) affluent areas just don't have the same number of cops patrolling and pulling people over for insignificant traffic violations, 2) although drugs are a problem in affluent areas, generally the people are about 1000 times smarter about it (i.e., don't do it in public places, don't drive with it, don't deal it, etc.) and 3), my CPD buddy who works in a gang unit will tell you in his experience pulling someone over in the real s***ty neighborhoods will uncover some felony level drug/drug amount or a gun like 75% or more of the time, versus 25% or less in affluent or even moderate neighborhoods.

 

I mean it's like college towns. They pull people over between 12-3am on bulls*** pretenses to find drunk drivers. I got pulled over once for having a graduation tassel "obstructing" my view. It's just guilt by association. Instead of college, it's poor, crime-ridden areas known for drugs.

 

 

[RockRaines]

I actually fully expect that to happen.

Well by the time the third one is done the body has been dissected twice already. The quality of work will decrease. Also the first one is the only one that has access to body fluids.

[caulfield12]

He pulled up ahead of them. And then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery. And, they gave a description. And, he’s looking at them and they got something in their hands and it looks like it could be what, you know those cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them. Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did. And, then he opened the car again. He tried to get out. He stands up. And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and them Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off. Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, “Freeze!” Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bum-rushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming.

 

Read more at http://www.brennerbrief.com/witness-michae...H0mut3WypWJP.99

[RockRaines]

Even if that's the truth nobody will believe it in that town.

[RockRaines]

Maybe it will make them mad enough to go ruin some more of their fellow neighbors small businesses.

[Jenksismyhero]

Even if that's the truth nobody will believe it in that town.

 

Yeah i'm pretty sure he's already been sentenced to life in prison. Check the first 5 pages of this thread.

[StrangeSox]

At what point does it. When you are about to lose consciousness. A 6'3 300 pound man punches you in the face is not the same as a 5'8 175 pound guy doing the same thing. This isn't Mike Tyson's punch out.

 

Okay, but that doesn't happen when they're still 35' away.

[StrangeSox]

He pulled up ahead of them. And then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery. And, they gave a description. And, he’s looking at them and they got something in their hands and it looks like it could be what, you know those cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them. Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did. And, then he opened the car again. He tried to get out. He stands up. And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and them Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off. Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, “Freeze!” Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bum-rushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming.

 

Read more at http://www.brennerbrief.com/witness-michae...H0mut3WypWJP.99

 

Didn't the police chief already say that the officer wasn't aware of the robbery?

[CrimsonWeltall]

Okay, but that doesn't happen when they're still 35' away.

 

The police SUV was 35 feet away, not Wilson. Wilson was chasing him. I forget where I read it, but I saw one source that said Brown was only 5 feet away when Wilson stopped firing (whether this was due to Wilson continuing to move forward while Brown was surrendering or due to Brown charging Wilson, who knows).

[illinilaw08]

There are multiple reasons for this though. 1) affluent areas just don't have the same number of cops patrolling and pulling people over for insignificant traffic violations, 2) although drugs are a problem in affluent areas, generally the people are about 1000 times smarter about it (i.e., don't do it in public places, don't drive with it, don't deal it, etc.) and 3), my CPD buddy who works in a gang unit will tell you in his experience pulling someone over in the real s***ty neighborhoods will uncover some felony level drug/drug amount or a gun like 75% or more of the time, versus 25% or less in affluent or even moderate neighborhoods.

 

I mean it's like college towns. They pull people over between 12-3am on bulls*** pretenses to find drunk drivers. I got pulled over once for having a graduation tassel "obstructing" my view. It's just guilt by association. Instead of college, it's poor, crime-ridden areas known for drugs.

 

But that's the point right? Even if your numbers are right and the police find drugs or a weapon on a routine traffic stop 75% of the time, they are still alienating the 25% that they stop who aren't doing anything. Strictly enforcing traffic laws to try and uncover illegal behavior alienates the police from the community.

 

I mean, I see your analogy to college campuses, but that behavior makes people resentful of the police. And in communities with higher crime rates, making the divide between the police and the community wider only exacerbates the problem - especially when color of skin helps influence who is pulled over. So in the light most favorable to the officers, it's still terrible policy.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Didn't the police chief already say that the officer wasn't aware of the robbery?

 

Yes.

 

And that's where the story is shifting/changing by the hour.

 

This came from one of Wilson's friends/acquaintances. And has been making the round of conservative websites and talk shows (just going by the description from one of the network news reporters).

 

I just entered "bum rush and 35 feet and Michael Brown and cigars" and the whole testimony popped up.

 

 

It almost seems TOO perfect, where it doesn't ring completely true any more than the "neighborhood witnesses." It COULD be true, of course, but reality is always somewhere in between.

Edited August 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[StrangeSox]

It'd be nice if the police had some sort of incident report/debrief from Wilson dating back to last Saturday before any external information (witness statements) was known.

[caulfield12]

Attorney Eric Holder is going to Ferguson on Wednesday.

 

Apparently Obama's giving tonight and Tuesday night with the Missouri National Guard before he considers changing up the response and possibly making it a federal situation, although he clearly doesn't want to be viewed as taking one side or the other...and politics is already hard to separate from this whole situation with Jay Nixon feeling a tremendous amount of heat for his handling of events so far.

 

Sounds like he is VERY leery of going there personally.

[caulfield12]

It'd be nice if the police had some sort of incident report/debrief from Wilson dating back to last Saturday before any external information (witness statements) was known.

 

 

It would also be nice if Wilson wouldn't have been out there on the street for 3-4 hours with time to think up a response...every hour that goes or went by, the story was going to change as his emotions went from shock to self-preservation.

 

(Probably not unlike what Tony Stewart's dealing with at the moment).