Ferguson Riots

[StrangeSox]

I have a very hard time accepting that the only outcome of a man walking towards two police officers armed with a steak knife is that he's shot dead.

[caulfield12]

I have a very hard time accepting that the only outcome of a man walking towards two police officers armed with a steak knife is that he's shot dead.

 

 

According to the majority of posters in this thread, that's exactly the case.

 

And, from living in China for four or five years...I can honestly say the police would have handled it quite differently. I've literally seen 25 similar incidents to this where you have crazy/drunk men on the streets acting erratically, sometimes armed with weapons, other times not...and always a large crowd of people circling around them, especially in the case of an argument between two people. Never have I seen the police even pull their guns once.

 

Once, I was on a bus and the driver cut off a motorcyclist because he wasn't paying attention and the motorcycle was in his blind spot. The driver of the motorcycle went ahead of the bus and stopped and blocked the bus. The bus driver, amazingly, got out to engage the motorcyclist in conversation and, meanwhile, the motorcylist had somehow gotten his hands on a crowbar and they were about to get into a huge brawl when the police came along, patiently talked to both of them for about 20-30 minutes until they were laughing...the weird thing was NOBODY even got off the bus, stopped from looking at their newspapers, cell phones or I-pads, it was like it was the most normal thing in the world.

 

Now, if you get the Chinese military, special police/security forces or army involved, they'll shoot first and ask questions later, they're not taught to engage, just to kill their targets. For example, any time a man goes into a school with a knife and threatens teachers or children, he's done.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

According to the majority of posters in this thread, that's exactly the case.

 

And, from living in China for four or five years...I can honestly say the police would have handled it quite differently. I've literally seen 25 similar incidents to this where you have crazy/drunk men on the streets acting erratically, sometimes armed with weapons, other times not...and always a large crowd of people circling around them, especially in the case of an argument between two people. Never have I seen the police even pull their guns once.

 

Once, I was on a bus and the driver cut off a motorcyclist because he wasn't paying attention and the motorcycle was in his blind spot. The driver of the motorcycle went ahead of the bus and stopped and blocked the bus. The bus driver, amazingly, got out to engage the motorcyclist in conversation and, meanwhile, the motorcylist had somehow gotten his hands on a crowbar and they were about to get into a huge brawl when the police came along, patiently talked to both of them for about 20-30 minutes until they were laughing...the weird thing was NOBODY even got off the bus, stopped from looking at their newspapers, cell phones or I-pads, it was like it was the most normal thing in the world.

 

Now, if you get the Chinese military, special police/security forces or army involved, they'll shoot first and ask questions later, they're not taught to engage, just to kill their targets. For example, any time a man goes into a school with a knife and threatens teachers or children, he's done.

 

Ok, but that situation doesn't mirror what happened here. You had a guy with a knife (not a crowbar) walking towards the cops and not listening to their instructions. I don't think you'd see too many US cops shooting a person who is in an argument with another person over a road-rage incident.

 

I still think that shooting was justified, but it bothers me a little they shot so quickly.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Funny you live in China and can't see the danger here. That's like ground zero for insane knife attacks. Last night 7 people were stabbed in an attack. Couple weeks ago 100 people died in a mass knife attack. And on and on and on. It's like a reoccurring event there.

[StrangeSox]

The regular police forces in the UK and Japan (and probably other countries) don't carry guns.

 

edit: I'm not suggesting that for regular US police forces, but it does suggest that there are other ways of handling situations with people armed with a knife than shooting them at the drop of a hat. e.g. here's how some UK cops have handled knife-wielding attackers

Edited August 22, 2014 by StrangeSox

[caulfield12]

The regular police forces in the UK and Japan (and probably other countries) don't carry guns.

 

edit: I'm not suggesting that for regular US police forces, but it does suggest that there are other ways of handling situations with armed people than shooting them at the drop of a hat.

 

And guns don't help much against chemical/biological weapons and terror attacks, like you see more consistently in Japan, on the subways for example.

[caulfield12]

Funny you live in China and can't see the danger here. That's like ground zero for insane knife attacks. Last night 7 people were stabbed in an attack. Couple weeks ago 100 people died in a mass knife attack. And on and on and on. It's like a reoccurring event there.

 

 

1) China has 1.6-1.8 billion people, so, once again, it's like an airplane crash...we only hear about the mass incidents. I've never been anywhere close to an actual mass knifing (although I did go to the same mall in Nairobi, Kenya last summer where the Somalian terrorists killed every foreigner and non-Muslim, and have seen motorcycle assassinations carried out in Colombia).

 

2) I found a link to a situation where 33 were killed in March, but do you have a link to the 100 person one you're referring to?

 

3) Guns aren't allowed in China, so knives are the next most logical weapon

 

4) The mental/psychological health system is not so advanced, so a lot of these cases are caused by lack of treatment and honesty about these real social problems...99% of the attacks are involving single men who are "disenfranchised" and frustrated with their station in life, that they can't get married because of lack of jobs/education/high salary (where are 6 men for every 5 women), just overall frustration with the government when there's so much corruption and unfairness. Why they target innocent children/schools to make their point is beyond me, although I guess it has a lot to do with drawing attention/news media/coverage to their situations...the need to die in a famous/infamous way rather than a random, unreported/anonymous way.

Edited August 22, 2014 by caulfield12

[mr_genius]

I have a very hard time accepting that the only outcome of a man walking towards two police officers armed with a steak knife is that he's shot dead.

 

i don't. if you go at the police with a butcher knife, you are probably getting shot.

[caulfield12]

i don't. if you go at the police with a butcher knife, you are probably getting shot.

 

wander/meander in the general direction of the police and menacingly go at the police are two quite different things

[mr_genius]

wander/meander in the general direction of the police and menacingly go at the police are two quite different things

 

you should be a police officer

[bmags]

Ok, but that situation doesn't mirror what happened here. You had a guy with a knife (not a crowbar) walking towards the cops and not listening to their instructions. I don't think you'd see too many US cops shooting a person who is in an argument with another person over a road-rage incident.

 

I still think that shooting was justified, but it bothers me a little they shot so quickly.

 

Your apprehension caused me to watch it, and I kind of wish I hadn't.

 

I think you kind of cut to the root of what bothers me so much, and it's that police intervention seems to escalate situations.

 

There were people surrounding this guy that were apparently not scared at all of him. The police arrived guns drawn and threatening and opened fire really quickly.

 

There's logic to this:

-He's in a public place with people walking by

- He could hurt someone at any minute

- He has a weapon!

 

But I got the impression that nobody who watched that in the parking lot saw it happen and thought "thank God the police arrived".

 

ANd that's why I can't get over the Brown shooting even with all the black eyes and stuff. How did a Jaywalking investigation turn so horribly?

 

It seems like the Police trying to reduce risks using their force may be creating more.

[Milkman delivers]

you should be a police officer

 

[Milkman delivers]

Just walk at the police with a knife or even a gun in hand, keep saying "I'm not a threat", and they'll have no reason to think otherwise!

[StrangeSox]

thought this portion of another Coates post is relevant:

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archiv...erguson/376098/

 

A few weeks ago I received an anxious text from my wife informing me that a group of young men were fighting outside of our apartment building. We've spent most of our adult lives in New York, and most of that time in New York living in Harlem. I love Harlem for the same reason I love all the hoods I have lived in. I walk outside in my same uniform, which is to say my same jeans, my same fitted, my same hoodie, and feel myself washing away, disappearing into the boulevard, into the black and (presently) the brown, and becoming human.

 

There have been young people fighting outside my window for as long as I can remember. I was no older than five sitting on the steps of my parents' home on Woodbrook Avenue watching the older boys knock shoulders in the street—"bucking" as we called it then—daring each other to fire off. From that point on I knew that among my people fisticuffs had their own ritual and script. The script was in effect that evening: show cause (some n****s jumped me in the park), mouth off (I ain't no punk), escalate (wait right her son, I'm bout to get my s***).

 

My wife wanted to know what she should do. She was not worried about her own safety—boys like this are primarily a threat to each other. What my wife wanted was someone who could save them young men from themselves, some power which would disperse the boys in a fashion that would not escalate things. No such power exists. I told my wife to stay inside and do nothing. I did not tell her to call the police. If you have watched the events of this past week, you may have some idea why.

 

My family lives in Harlem. My wife did not call the police. An older head told the angry boys that they needed to take it somewhere else, which they did. Black people are not above calling the police—but often we do so fully understanding that we are introducing an element that is unaccountable to us. We introduce the police into our communities, the way you might introduce a predator into the food chain. This is not the singular, special fault of the police. The police are but the tip of the sword wielded by American society itself. Something bigger than Stand Your Ground, the drug war, mass incarceration or any other policy is haunting us. And as long we cower from it, the events of this week are as certain as math. The question is not "if," but "when."

[StrangeSox]

Just walk at the police with a knife or even a gun in hand, keep saying "I'm not a threat", and they'll have no reason to think otherwise!

 

Is death the appropriate outcome? Is any other outcome possible?

[caulfield12]

you should be a police officer

 

 

It doesn't seem like I'm the only person here who feels it's right to question the police.

 

God forbid, that somebody does, or that they even have, GASP, civilian oversight.

 

As a teacher, EVERYONE thinks they can tell teachers what to do, that we're wrong and why we're wrong, that we're too strict or not strict enough, that we can't just GIVE grades, students earn them. We're expected to be comedians/entertainers, guidance counselors and surrogate parents as well.

 

It's fine, goes with the territory, I just kind of roll my eyes and realize that's the way it is always going to be.

 

On the other hand, if you DARE question anything about the way a police officer does his job, you're likely to get shouted down (or even shot for questioning his authority). Seriously, enough. 9/11 was thirteen years ago. Do we still need "God Bless America" to express our patriotism at ballgames? Where was that song in the mid 1970's after the troops came back from Vietnam?

Edited August 22, 2014 by caulfield12

[mr_genius]

It doesn't seem like I'm the only person here who feels it's right to question the police.

 

God forbid, that somebody does, or that they even have, GASP, civilian oversight.

 

As a teacher, EVERYONE thinks they can tell teachers what to do, that we're wrong and why we're wrong, that we're too strict or not strict enough, that we can't just GIVE grades, students earn them. We're expected to be comedians/entertainers, guidance counselors and surrogate parents as well.

 

It's fine, goes with the territory, I just kind of roll my eyes and realize that's the way it is always going to be.

 

On the other hand, if you DARE question anything about the way a police officer does his job, you're likely to get shouted down (or even shot for questioning his authority). Seriously, enough. 9/11 was thirteen years ago. Do we still need "God Bless America" to express our patriotism at ballgames? Where was that song in the mid 1970's after the troops came back from Vietnam?

 

haha, I'm not sure where the "God Bless America" rant came from but I agree with it.

[Milkman delivers]

Your apprehension caused me to watch it, and I kind of wish I hadn't.

 

I think you kind of cut to the root of what bothers me so much, and it's that police intervention seems to escalate situations.

 

There were people surrounding this guy that were apparently not scared at all of him. The police arrived guns drawn and threatening and opened fire really quickly.

 

There's logic to this:

-He's in a public place with people walking by

- He could hurt someone at any minute

- He has a weapon!

 

But I got the impression that nobody who watched that in the parking lot saw it happen and thought "thank God the police arrived".

 

ANd that's why I can't get over the Brown shooting even with all the black eyes and stuff. How did a Jaywalking investigation turn so horribly?

 

It seems like the Police trying to reduce risks using their force may be creating more.

 

Let's be completely honest here. The jaywalking investigation turned bad because the person being investigated turned physically aggressive, and it's most likely because he himself was aware that he had committed a strong armed robbery. I don't care what your opinion is, that's how I see it. Either way, it went south because the dead person became physically combative.

 

And to the knife/shooting, if the police DIDN'T shoot him and he ended up stabbing a bystander or even one of the cops, why do I feel like the cops would be blamed for not acting on it?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Milkman delivers

[StrangeSox]

Was it necessary to immediately draw their guns when they arrived? To me, that just escalates the situation. (I'm more picking your brain on your training and procedures here than anything else right now)

Edited August 22, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Milkman delivers]

Is death the appropriate outcome? Is any other outcome possible?

 

They can be shot and live, yes. The officer COULD use a taser, but as I previously explained, they're ineffective many times with mobile threats and now you might have angered the threat even more and allowed him extra time to use his weapon against you.

[mr_genius]

And to the knife/shooting, if the police DIDN'T shoot him and he ended up stabbing a bystander or even one of the cops, why do I feel like the cops would be blamed for not acting on it?

 

Yea, he would probably be in here complaining that the police "didn't do their job".

[Milkman delivers]

Was it necessary to immediately draw their guns when they arrived? To me, that just escalates the situation. (I'm more picking your brain on your training and procedures here than anything else right now)

 

This is easy. Weapon in view, your weapon is out.

[Jenksismyhero]

thought this portion of another Coates post is relevant:

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archiv...erguson/376098/

 

I'm sorry, but that's f***ing pathetic. That's just giving up. "Meh, boys [committing crimes and lowering property values] will be boys [committing crimes and lowering property values]!"

 

edit: this is just like that crap article I posted about not calling the cops on a 13 year old that steals your phone. "Think of what will happen to him if you call the cops!" Yeah, he gets what he deserves for being a little s*** bag.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Milkman delivers]

Every department I'm familiar with DOES have civilian oversight.

 

And not saying you can't question things, but you certainly can't question the use of deadly force on an openly armed threat. That's open and shut. This knife situation is not similar at all to the Mike Brown case, which is much more nebulous. The facts still have to come out in Ferguson. This other one is as by the books as it gets.

[Jenksismyhero]

Let's be completely honest here. The jaywalking instigation turned badly because the person being investigated turned physically aggressive, and it's most likely because he himself was aware that he had committed a strong armed robbery. I don't care what your opinion is, that's how I see it. Either way, it went south because the dead person became physically combative.

 

And to the knife/shooting, if the police DIDN'T shoot him and he ended up stabbing a bystander or even one of the cops, why do I feel like the cops would be blamed for not acting on it?

 

Looking at that video though, look at when the shoot. Didn't it seem to be a bit sudden? Alpha keeps posting about how quickly knife attacks can occur, but none of those situations are really present there. The knife was out already. The cops were 10-15 feet away (from the looks of it anyway). The cops were behind metal doors.

 

I'm even fine with them having their guns out. I don't think that escalates the situation when you're dealing with someone who has a knife and is an obvious threat to anyone around him. But I dunno, they just shot so quickly. Seems like shooting was their first choice, not their last choice. And I say that knowing that we're talking about a few seconds and a few feet, but to me that's an appreciable difference.

 

The Brown case is automatic for me if he did run back towards the cop. The cop's already been attacked once. Brown is attempting to do it again. I have no problem responding with shots in that situation.