Ferguson Riots

[Jenksismyhero]

Using this elevated standard of proof in combination with the Ferguson ~both sides~ quasi-trial grand jury process, I estimate our criminal indictment rates will plummet by 90%.

 

Which would drop it from its current rate of 95%. Not getting an indictment on weak evidence should be something you want.

[EvilMonkey]

He initially pulls his hands away from the officer trying to grab them. After that point, and the entire time the choke hold is on him, he is offering zero resistance.

 

STOP RESISTING WITH YOUR DYING

I see him fighting and resisting until he is on the ground, and even then once they get one hand finally behind his back, he is still struggling. The knee someone had against his head may have had a contributing factor as well. Now there will be a few of you who will jump to the conclusion that I think he deserved to die for (allegedly) selling loosies. I didn't say or imply that anywhere, so you can just suck on that right now before you even begin. but once you resist arrest, YOU have elevated the situation to a point where anything can happen. Somewhat surprised there were no criminal charges of some kind, but pretty sure a civil case will be pending.

[Reddy]

I don't have a problem with an assault/battery charge. Murder or manslaughter? I don't think I can go that far. Not with the info on the internet anyway. If the experts say that the chokehold is the major cause of the death, then I'd be ok with it.

 

 

So you agree he should've been indicted, which only means there is probable cause to charge him with SOMETHING

[CrimsonWeltall]

I see him fighting and resisting until he is on the ground, and even then once they get one hand finally behind his back, he is still struggling.

 

He stumbles backwards because someone just jumped on his back with a chokehold. When he gets to the ground, his arms are out in front of him. He's not hitting, he's not pushing, he has no weapons.

[StrangeSox]

Which would drop it from its current rate of 95%. Not getting an indictment on weak evidence should be something you want.

I am being facetious. There's nothing new about police not being held accountable for their actions by both the justice system and many members of the public.

[StrangeSox]

I see him fighting and resisting until he is on the ground, and even then once they get one hand finally behind his back, he is still struggling. The knee someone had against his head may have had a contributing factor as well. Now there will be a few of you who will jump to the conclusion that I think he deserved to die for (allegedly) selling loosies. I didn't say or imply that anywhere, so you can just suck on that right now before you even begin. but once you resist arrest, YOU have elevated the situation to a point where anything can happen. Somewhat surprised there were no criminal charges of some kind, but pretty sure a civil case will be pending.

Resisting arrest doesn't excuse police brutality and murder. At no point should any NYPD officer ever put anyone in a choke hold. These are supposed to be trained, disciplined professionals, and if "anything can happen," they should be fired for incompetence.

[EvilMonkey]

Resisting arrest doesn't excuse police brutality and murder. At no point should any NYPD officer ever put anyone in a choke hold. These are supposed to be trained, disciplined professionals, and if "anything can happen," they should be fired for incompetence.

I didn't say it excused it. I said that HE is the one that elevated the situation first by resisting arrest. He started a chain of events that had the eventual reality of him being dead. He could have prevented this by not resisting arrest. It also could have been prevented from somethign other than a choke hold, maybe a tazer, or how about a baton against the back of the knees? He opened the door to potentially bad things and bad things happened.

[StrangeSox]

I didn't say it excused it. I said that HE is the one that elevated the situation first by resisting arrest. He started a chain of events that had the eventual reality of him being dead. He could have prevented this by not resisting arrest. It also could have been prevented from somethign other than a choke hold, maybe a tazer, or how about a baton against the back of the knees? He opened the door to potentially bad things and bad things happened.

I do not believe that police should be generally viewed as violent thugs with no impulse control such that the result of the slightest disobedience is police brutality. The man pulled his hand away a few times because he was being harassed about some damn cigarettes and that's about it. It doesn't justify jumping on his back and putting him in a choke hold. It doesn't justify using a tazer on him or bashing his knees with a baton.

[EvilMonkey]

I do not believe that police should be generally viewed as violent thugs with no impulse control such that the result of the slightest disobedience is police brutality. The man pulled his hand away a few times because he was being harassed about some damn cigarettes and that's about it. It doesn't justify jumping on his back and putting him in a choke hold. It doesn't justify using a tazer on him or bashing his knees with a baton.

Do you want to police to enforce the laws or not? The only way they have to enforce them is violence and/or the threat of violence. If you think certain laws are trivial enough to not need to be enforced, then just eliminate the laws altogether. What laws he was violating shouldn't matter. If he broke the law and was to be arrested, resisting arrest is an open invitation for the violence part of law enforcement. Not agreeing with the level that seems to have been used, but the door was open. He chose unwisely.

[Balta1701]

I see him fighting and resisting until he is on the ground, and even then once they get one hand finally behind his back, he is still struggling. The knee someone had against his head may have had a contributing factor as well. Now there will be a few of you who will jump to the conclusion that I think he deserved to die for (allegedly) selling loosies. I didn't say or imply that anywhere, so you can just suck on that right now before you even begin. but once you resist arrest, YOU have elevated the situation to a point where anything can happen. Somewhat surprised there were no criminal charges of some kind, but pretty sure a civil case will be pending.

He's struggling while he's on the ground while saying the phrase "I can't breathe" 10 or so times.

 

You don't see what the difficulty might be?

[EvilMonkey]

He's struggling while he's on the ground while saying the phrase "I can't breathe" 10 or so times.

 

You don't see what the difficulty might be?

Do none of you have reading comprehension? I saw that, heard that. I see the choke hold applied until a few seconds after he is on the ground. I see his struggling again once they get one handcuff one and a knee in the side of his head. I already said that.

[StrangeSox]

Do you want to police to enforce the laws or not? The only way they have to enforce them is violence and/or the threat of violence. If you think certain laws are trivial enough to not need to be enforced, then just eliminate the laws altogether. What laws he was violating shouldn't matter. If he broke the law and was to be arrested, resisting arrest is an open invitation for the violence part of law enforcement. Not agreeing with the level that seems to have been used, but the door was open. He chose unwisely.

Pulling your hand away does not or at least should not "open" a door to police brutality and murder.

 

If a police officer cannot resist the "invitation" to violence, they should be fired immediately and tried and convicted for any excessive force they have used.

[StrangeSox]

I'm sure his report and his interviews were done immediately.

I was looking for something else and found these series of posts.

 

LOL, nope! They let Wilson drive himself back, alone. Then scrub himself clean of blood and gunshot residue. Then he got to enter his own gun into evidence. And of course there was never any written or recorded statement.

[Jenksismyhero]

I was looking for something else and found these series of posts.

 

LOL, nope! They let Wilson drive himself back, alone. Then scrub himself clean of blood and gunshot residue. Then he got to enter his own gun into evidence. And of course there was never any written or recorded statement.

 

How did they find blood on Wilson if he washed it off?

[StrangeSox]

How did they find blood on Wilson if he washed it off?

It was on his clothes, but he scrubbed it off of his face and hands. That he was even allowed to go back to the station by himself with his own weapon used in a shooting that killed someone speaks to remarkably poor police work.

[StrangeSox]

There's lots of gems in this thread about "a dozen" witnesses backing up Wilson's charging story (nope, just Witness 10 and Wilson with 12 others saying he had his hands up), reported orbital fractures, etc, but this is what I was looking for:

 

Cop Pens Touching Op-Ed: Do Everything I Say and I Won't Kill You

 

Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don't want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don't argue with me, don't call me names, don't tell me that I can't stop you, don't say I'm a racist pig, don't threaten that you'll sue me and take away my badge. Don't scream at me that you pay my salary, and don't even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?

 

Obey or be brutalized.

[Jenksismyhero]

It was on his clothes, but he scrubbed it off of his face and hands. That he was even allowed to go back to the station by himself with his own weapon used in a shooting that killed someone speaks to remarkably poor police work.

 

I don't know that i have an issue with him washing the blood of someone off of his body. I wouldn't want that sitting on my face for hours.

 

edit: and why is it problematic that he drove himself back to the station? Or enter his gun into evidence? Was he totally alone? Could he somehow clean the gun of evidence? That he shot Brown with his service weapon isn't really an issue. Maybe the number of bullets shot, but i'm sure they found all or most of the casings on the scene. I admit it doesn't scream "great chain of custody/evidence gathering," but I don't think it changes the ball game either way.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

I don't know that i have an issue with him washing the blood of someone off of his body. I wouldn't want that sitting on my face for hours.

Evidence should have been collected on the scene or he should have been driven back with somebody to the station to collect evidence (log the gun into evidence, gather blood and possible gunshot residue samples from his hands an face). Then he's free to wash up. Incompetence or deliberate non-investigation seems like the only two possibilities here.

[EvilMonkey]

Pulling your hand away does not or at least should not "open" a door to police brutality and murder.

 

If a police officer cannot resist the "invitation" to violence, they should be fired immediately and tried and convicted for any excessive force they have used.

I understand that there seems to have been something wrong on the officers part. You seem to be completely incapable of admitting that the guy resisting arrest has some blame here as well for escalating the situation. Nobody said that pulling your hand away from an officer justifies getting killed. But it does justify a response.

[StrangeSox]

I don't know that i have an issue with him washing the blood of someone off of his body. I wouldn't want that sitting on my face for hours.

 

edit: and why is it problematic that he drove himself back to the station? Or enter his gun into evidence? Was he totally alone? Could he somehow clean the gun of evidence? That he shot Brown with his service weapon isn't really an issue. Maybe the number of bullets shot, but i'm sure they found all or most of the casings on the scene. I admit it doesn't scream "great chain of custody/evidence gathering," but I don't think it changes the ball game either way.

it screams incompetent or deliberately shoddy police work.

 

“An officer driving himself back? Wrong. An officer booking his own gun into evidence? Wrong,” said David Klinger, an expert on police shootings with the University of Missouri at St. Louis who is also a former police officer. “The appropriate investigative procedures were not followed.’’

 

A 2013 Justice Department manual on processing crime scenes, designed in conjunction with police departments across the country, addresses what experts said was perhaps the most serious breach of protocol after Brown was killed: Wilson washing the blood off his hands.

 

Chuck Drago, a former Florida police chief who runs a consulting firm that deals with police practices, described Wilson’s actions in the aftermath of the shooting — especially washing the blood off his hands and handling his own gun — as “totally un­or­tho­dox and unusual. This would be considered very out of line — very, very bad from an investigative perspective.’’

 

Drago said investigators are supposed to immediately seize a suspect’s weapon, even that of an officer, and not allow a suspect to clean himself up. “They need to make sure he doesn’t wipe off any evidence, destroy any evidence or who knows what,’’ Drago said.

[StrangeSox]

I understand that there seems to have been something wrong on the officers part. You seem to be completely incapable of admitting that the guy resisting arrest has some blame here as well for escalating the situation. Nobody said that pulling your hand away from an officer justifies getting killed. But it does justify a response.

The guy "resisting arrest," if we want to charitably call it that, bears zero blame for the police using excessive force. The officer's actual response was completely unjustified and led to Garner's death.

 

More importantly, whether Garner "has some blame" is completely irrelevant to whether or not the officer should be looking forward to years in jail for killing a man instead of walking free.

[Jake]

The "black folks should join the police force" argument has a serious problem. Many of the people who are so upset with the police force, believe it or not, have no faith in the police or probably the criminal justice system. "Reform from within" only makes sense when the system you're in works.

 

I don't want to make a false equivalency, but any revolution makes sense to understand this thought process. Americans went to war with the British because they didn't feel that legal recourse had any chance of working. Confederates seceded because they felt the USA wouldn't let them keep their way of life. There are countless examples.

 

The sentiment behind things like the Gawker article is that for as long as American police have existed, they have not treated black people fairly. Certainly, there are countless times each day in which well-meaning police act fairly towards everyone. Those incidences obviously outnumber the one we're talking about in this thread. In many ways, the plight of black people has improved in the recent past. One of the best things to happen is that it is almost always socially undesirable to be racist. But we're left with implicit biases - all of us are - that we struggle to recognize and even if we do, most of us try to convince ourselves that they aren't there. Most people would agree that the officers involved in these cases are probably not virulent racists who were thinking, "this guy is black, let's get him!"

 

The allegation is that, unconsciously, their judgment of the people in question was influenced by their race. Michael Brown seemed more dangerous than he was because he was black. Tamir Rice's blackness made it more plausible that he was waving a real gun around. What is frustrating is the refusal by anyone to face their shortcomings. When we can't even get an indictment in these cases, many people see this as the police establishment saying, "no, this cannot possibly be fueled by a racial bias, even an unintentional one."

 

If you walked up to a young man or woman at work and asked them to make you some copies and came to find out that, oops, this person is your superior...what would you do? Always assume that other young people are your inferiors or realize that you might not be able to make these judgments based on heuristics like how old somebody looks? That's all people are asking for here ... except there has been a far longer time to learn. You know that bias your profession always seems to have? Maybe be a little more careful, or at least act like you've accepted the possibility that it's an ongoing problem.

 

At the very least, don't expect the group suffering at the hands of these biases to join the club as if that will fix things. It's a structural problem. We actually have research showing that, while less frequently/intense, even black folks have learned some biases against other black people. These things are pervasive. I like to think I'm a pretty thoughtful person, but I found myself referring to a female doctor as a nurse the other day. Why? Not because I'm evil, I don't think, but because I've been conditioned to assume that to be the case. We aren't perfect and never will be, but we'll only get better if we actively work towards fixing the problems rather than constantly confusing the victims and the perpetrators for one another.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Jake

[bmags]

lol resisting arrest.

[pettie4sox]

Those officers should lose their jobs for what happened to Garner. Tax payers will have to foot the bill for the officers negligence.

[StrangeSox]

Those officers should lose their jobs for what happened to Garner. Tax payers will have to foot the bill for the officers negligence.

I think Officer Choke Hold was fired or they've said he will be fired.