Ferguson Riots

[Milkman delivers]

Once again, why is the officer using deadly force if Brown isn't armed....?

 

You're telling me that you don't shoot him in the leg or knee or at least try before he gets closer? It's not like this guy is going to be "quick" or be able to fly at an officer at that size.

 

And six shots or more?

 

 

Unless he was crazed on meth or some type of drug, then it's going to be very difficult to explain this one.

 

It's not difficult to explain at all, and you sound like a f***ing idiot.

[RockRaines]

But that's the point right? Even if your numbers are right and the police find drugs or a weapon on a routine traffic stop 75% of the time, they are still alienating the 25% that they stop who aren't doing anything. Strictly enforcing traffic laws to try and uncover illegal behavior alienates the police from the community.

 

I mean, I see your analogy to college campuses, but that behavior makes people resentful of the police. And in communities with higher crime rates, making the divide between the police and the community wider only exacerbates the problem - especially when color of skin helps influence who is pulled over. So in the light most favorable to the officers, it's still terrible policy.

Yet they whine for more police present to stop the crime. Funny how that works.

[RockRaines]

It'd be nice if the police had some sort of incident report/debrief from Wilson dating back to last Saturday before any external information (witness statements) was known.

They probably do but it's more important to give that info to a DA instead of the experts looting local businesses.

[Milkman delivers]

Any of the multiple lawyers here have any knowledge of deadly force laws? Would the hypothetical scenario of Brown starting to run back towards the police officer from 35+ feet away even justify the use of deadly force?

 

He could probably justify it based solely on size difference and charging at him alone. When you add in the possibility that he previously attempted to disarm the officer, it's a slam freaking dunk.

[Jenksismyhero]

Okay, but that doesn't happen when they're still 35' away.

 

It's a pretty interesting case though if what this story says actually happened. You've got a huge dude that just tried to steal your gun and beat you up. You, as the police, successfully fended him off. He runs, you pursue as is your duty. And when you say freeze, instead of freezing, he runs at you with the clear intent of trying to hurt you.

 

Again, assuming this is true for the sake of the argument, what was the officers alternative other than to shoot? Hop into his car and drive away? Do we want them to do that? Wouldn't that just invite more attacks on police? A baton won't help. A taser might, but I don't think he had one on him. Mace? Maybe, that's not fool proof and you have to be somewhat accurate for it to work. I'm not sure what the answer is there.

 

Back to reality, do we know where the officer was when he fired? Was he still at the car? Did he try and pursue for a little bit? I think that's a very important fact here. 35 feet away really discredits your fear of being killed/seriously hurt. If he had taken 5-10 steps after Brown, and was within 10-15 feet, that's a much more "acceptable" use of deadly force. Then you're at least seconds away from being attacked again.

[Jenksismyhero]

It'd be nice if the police had some sort of incident report/debrief from Wilson dating back to last Saturday before any external information (witness statements) was known.

 

I'm sure his report and his interviews were done immediately.

[witesoxfan]

35 feet is approximately 12 yards. This is crazy, but consider 10 yard splits in the NFL combine - even guys at 350 pounds will run 10 yard splits in the 2 second range. So, if Michael Brown goes from a standstill to a full charge, you have to figure the officer has, at most, 2.5-3 seconds to make a decision. If he thinks this guy is going to tackle and pound him to a bloody pulp, he has about one option.

 

The actions afterward by the police department have been apalling, but this is why I've tried to stay out until more details have come out. Maybe it's made up or fabricated, but with incomplete information, it's just as bad to jump to conclusions.

[illinilaw08]

Yet they whine for more police present to stop the crime. Funny how that works.

 

I'm not sure what the bolded is in reference to...

 

More police isn't bad. More police pulling over every driver going 33 in a 30 after midnight to try to make possession arrests is bad policy (especially since possession is, relatively, a victimless crime).

 

More police isn't bad. More police targeting racial minorities is bad policy (and fundamentally bad - see stop and frisk).

 

More police isn't bad. Better interaction between police and the community is even better.

 

[Milkman delivers]

Didn't the police chief already say that the officer wasn't aware of the robbery?

 

Even if he weren't aware of the robbery, he could still legally stop them for walking in the street. It's clearly less of a crime, but it's still a crime.

[RockRaines]

I'm not sure what the bolded is in reference to...

 

More police isn't bad. More police pulling over every driver going 33 in a 30 after midnight to try to make possession arrests is bad policy (especially since possession is, relatively, a victimless crime).

 

More police isn't bad. More police targeting racial minorities is bad policy (and fundamentally bad - see stop and frisk).

 

More police isn't bad. Better interaction between police and the community is even better.

Pulling over 10 random drivers in englewood is going to result in at least 9 out of 10 drivers being black especially at night. It isn't racial profiling it's playing the odds. Many of those routine stops results in arrests for larger crimes than you describe. However the minute a shooting happens everyone complains about the police not being there. That's what the bolded meant. Police presence makes people unhappy until they actually need them.

[Jenksismyhero]

As to the apathy with which some people in this thread have towards criminals, this is more crap that just infuriates me:

 

http://gawker.com/all-the-things-not-to-do...chil-1623421423

 

13 year old steals phone. Victim apprehends 13 year old until police arrive. Police arrive, arrest and charge 13 year old for being a little s***bag thief. Gawker's (bleading hearts') conclusion to this story? "If you are nonviolently mugged by a child, continue to let him run along with his friends. The world will be a better place."

 

f***ed up society we live in right there.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Milkman delivers]

It's a pretty interesting case though if what this story says actually happened. You've got a huge dude that just tried to steal your gun and beat you up. You, as the police, successfully fended him off. He runs, you pursue as is your duty. And when you say freeze, instead of freezing, he runs at you with the clear intent of trying to hurt you.

 

Again, assuming this is true for the sake of the argument, what was the officers alternative other than to shoot? Hop into his car and drive away? Do we want them to do that? Wouldn't that just invite more attacks on police? A baton won't help. A taser might, but I don't think he had one on him. Mace? Maybe, that's not fool proof and you have to be somewhat accurate for it to work. I'm not sure what the answer is there.

 

Back to reality, do we know where the officer was when he fired? Was he still at the car? Did he try and pursue for a little bit? I think that's a very important fact here. 35 feet away really discredits your fear of being killed/seriously hurt. If he had taken 5-10 steps after Brown, and was within 10-15 feet, that's a much more "acceptable" use of deadly force. Then you're at least seconds away from being attacked again.

 

As wite said, you can close a 35-foot gap very quickly.

 

And let me talk about the taser for a minute. Obviously it's a non-issue in this case, as he didn't have one. But tasers are not this magical instrument people seem to think they are. Both prongs have to make a connection for it to even work. Clothing often causes a disconnect. And at a distance, there is even more separation between the two prongs. At 35 feet, which is longer than a ton of tasers, if one prong connects, the other is more than likely hitting the cement or going through or to the side of the legs. Hitting a moving target with a taser is also incredibly difficult.

 

And the "mace", while painful, is routinely powered through by angry people.

[caulfield12]

It's not difficult to explain at all, and you sound like a f***ing idiot.

 

 

So the solution is for EVERYONE to have a gun.

 

 

Because, if, no matter what, an officer can presume you have a gun, then unless there's some type of video/cam, it's always going to be his word against the victim's.

 

Therefore, since officers will shoot assuming you have a gun anyway, why not just let everyone have a gun?

 

 

P.S. I'm sure trained professionals can hit a 300 pound guy from 35 feet away at least once or twice at waist level or below if he's taking 6-8 shots. Are we supposed to believe this guy's moving as quick as William The Refrigerator Perry down the street like an enraged bull?

Edited August 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[StrangeSox]

Even if he weren't aware of the robbery, he could still legally stop them for walking in the street. It's clearly less of a crime, but it's still a crime.

Oh absolutely but that story from the officer's friend says something about them being robbery suspects.

[caulfield12]

Oh absolutely but that story from the officer's friend says something about them being robbery suspects.

 

 

Who just so happened to be doing some kind of victory dance or celebration in the middle of the street with their $49 worth of stolen cigars.

 

Because obviously no one else in the city would have the right to holding/carrying cigars in their hands, so it was very convenient that the officer just so happened four hours later to find those two still carrying around the cigars instead of smoking them, handing them out to friends, etc.

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

Oh absolutely but that story from the officer's friend says something about them being robbery suspects.

 

I get it, but like I said, it's almost irrelevant if everything that he said occurred after is true. And there's also the possibility that he stopped them for walking in the street and found out about the robbery during the stop, or that he heard about it earlier and it dawned on him that they could be the same people once he initiated the stop.

[RockRaines]

So the solution is for EVERYONE to have a gun.

 

 

Because, if, no matter what, an officer can presume you have a gun, then unless there's some type of video/cam, it's always going to be his word against the victim's.

 

Therefore, since officers will shoot assuming you have a gun anyway, why not just let everyone have a gun?

 

 

P.S. I'm sure trained professionals can hit a 300 pound guy from 35 feet away at least once or twice at waist level or below if he's taking 6-8 shots. Are we supposed to believe this guy's moving as quick as William The Refrigerator Perry down the street like an enraged bull?

The cameras will not help anyone but officers in most situations so they should be in favor of it. There are many examples of these cameras on YouTube and the officer almost always appears much calmer than the perps.

[bmags]

I mean, that's like, the least implausible part of the story. They may have wanted the cigars to transform them into something else.

Edited August 18, 2014 by bmags

[Milkman delivers]

So the solution is for EVERYONE to have a gun.

 

 

Because, if, no matter what, an officer can presume you have a gun, then unless there's some type of video/cam, it's always going to be his word against the victim's.

 

Therefore, since officers will shoot assuming you have a gun anyway, why not just let everyone have a gun?

 

 

P.S. I'm sure trained professionals can hit a 300 pound guy from 35 feet away at least once or twice at waist level or below if he's taking 6-8 shots. Are we supposed to believe this guy's moving as quick as William The Refrigerator Perry down the street like an enraged bull?

 

You sound so freaking dumb on this subject. Just give it up.

[RockRaines]

Who just so happened to be doing some kind of victory dance or celebration in the middle of the street with their $49 worth of stolen cigars.

 

Because obviously no one else in the city would have the right to holding/carrying cigars in their hands, so it was very convenient that the officer just so happened four hours later to find those two still carrying around the cigars instead of smoking them, handing them out to friends, etc.

They weren't cohibas they were the kind you roll blunts with from what I've seen. Pretty sure it wasn't for the birth of someone's kids.

[Milkman delivers]

Who just so happened to be doing some kind of victory dance or celebration in the middle of the street with their $49 worth of stolen cigars.

 

Because obviously no one else in the city would have the right to holding/carrying cigars in their hands, so it was very convenient that the officer just so happened four hours later to find those two still carrying around the cigars instead of smoking them, handing them out to friends, etc.

 

Again, whether or not he was aware of the robbery is moot. They were walking in the street, which is illegal and already justifies the stop.

[caulfield12]

You sound so freaking dumb on this subject. Just give it up.

 

 

And you sound so gung-ho to go into Ferguson and bring some good 'ol fashioned law and order...at least I presented some evidence that MIGHT exonerate the officer, if it was actually truthful.

 

You aren't giving ANY benefit of the doubt, at all...

[RockRaines]

Again, whether or not he was aware of the robbery is moot. They were walking in the street, which is illegal and already justifies the stop.

He wasn't even going to arrest them from the accounts. He just wanted them to move onto the sidewalk before they resisted and the skirmish happened.

[bmags]

Yes, we have a lot of retrospectives from this cop apparently. What's Mike Brown's side of the story?

[greg775]

Even if that's the truth nobody will believe it in that town.

You are right about that. Nobody in AMERICA will believe it either. The officer is going to have to "take one for the team" on this one and go to jail for 30 years. The people probably won't think that's enough and riot some more if it happens.

 

Who just so happened to be doing some kind of victory dance or celebration in the middle of the street with their $49 worth of stolen cigars.

 

Because obviously no one else in the city would have the right to holding/carrying cigars in their hands, so it was very convenient that the officer just so happened four hours later to find those two still carrying around the cigars instead of smoking them, handing them out to friends, etc.

I like caufield's posts. The last 4-5 posts anyway. Nice job.

 

And you sound so gung-ho to go into Ferguson and bring some good 'ol fashioned law and order...at least I presented some evidence that MIGHT exonerate the officer, if it was actually truthful.

 

You aren't giving ANY benefit of the doubt, at all...

Amen brother.