Ferguson Riots

[Jenksismyhero]

http://gawker.com/cop-pens-touching-op-ed-...wont-1623985263

 

This mindset is absolutely part of the problem, that police are never to be questioned and always to be obeyed.

 

And yet doing that would stop about 90% of the problems with cops. As I said before, if you feel wronged, be civilized and use the court system. Don't exacerbate the problem and get yourself in a worse mess than is necessary.

 

Also, why are cops so much different than other authority figures in life? Parents, bosses, etc. You bite your tongue with them, why are cops any different?

[Jenksismyhero]

That is false. At least two other independent witnesses said the same thing.

 

Why do you feel that the shooting was completely justified at this point?

 

And as we discussed one of those witnesses admitted that she left to go get her phone so she really didn't see what happened. Who's the second? I'm only aware of that woman and the partner. The stories are starting to mix together.

 

I'm not 100% confident, but i'm more confident given the new reports of "dozens" of witnesses who back up the officers claim that Brown ran towards him. Add the scuffle beforehand, and even if the shooting wasn't 100% justified and the officer had other potential alternatives (a dubious claim given the distance and timing involved, if true), it's not a "victimless crime" here. Brown was a criminal who attacked a cop and unfortunately died for being a moron. I don't pity those types of people.

[StrangeSox]

LOL, the video starts at the firing of the gas, most likely after many warnings were given to clear the area. Once again there is no way they fired gas without warning.

 

This assumes that their demands and warnings, if they had happened, were legitimate in the first place. Either way, the best defense that the police managed to mount in that case was that "it wasn't us! we don't know who fired it! either way, it definitely wasn't intentional!"

 

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/...r-gas/14042747/

 

There wasn't anything going on in the area and the police haven't even tried to justify their actions in that case. They've been arresting journalists and protesters, detaining them overnight without any charges. They've dispersed peaceful crowds with tear gas and sound cannons. They've had dozens of deadly weapons pointed at unarmed civilians. Like I said, this isn't even controversial. The state police were brought in because of the overreaction during the first week.

[StrangeSox]

And yet doing that would stop about 90% of the problems with cops. As I said before, if you feel wronged, be civilized and use the court system. Don't exacerbate the problem and get yourself in a worse mess than is necessary.

 

This assumes that you can have faith in internal affairs audits or judicial proceedings in these sorts of cases. Didn't bmags post something about there never being a single officer-involved shooting ruled unjustified in Wisconsin, ever?

 

Also, why are cops so much different than other authority figures in life? Parents, bosses, etc. You bite your tongue with them, why are cops any different?

You'd be surprised!

 

But more to the point, it makes cops out to be dumb babies incapable of controlling their emotions. If you can't do your job without resorting to violence because someone argued with you or called you a racist, then find a new job.

[RockRaines]

This assumes that their demands and warnings, if they had happened, were legitimate in the first place. Either way, the best defense that the police managed to mount in that case was that "it wasn't us! we don't know who fired it! either way, it definitely wasn't intentional!"

 

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/...r-gas/14042747/

 

There wasn't anything going on in the area and the police haven't even tried to justify their actions in that case. They've been arresting journalists and protesters, detaining them overnight without any charges. They've dispersed peaceful crowds with tear gas and sound cannons. They've had dozens of deadly weapons pointed at unarmed civilians. Like I said, this isn't even controversial. The state police were brought in because of the overreaction during the first week.

What's a legitimate warning? You need to move to another area-yes sir. Since when is listening to police about moving optional?

[StrangeSox]

And as we discussed one of those witnesses admitted that she left to go get her phone so she really didn't see what happened. Who's the second? I'm only aware of that woman and the partner. The stories are starting to mix together.

 

There was Piaget Crenshaw, who saw the shooting and then got her phone to record the aftermath. I haven't seen anything indicating that she did not see the shooting, and I can't find anything on google.

 

There was also Tiffany Mitchell, who told a story very similar to Crenshaw's version of events.

 

I'm not 100% confident, but i'm more confident given the new reports of "dozens" of witnesses who back up the officers claim that Brown ran towards him.

 

There was one tweet from a local reporter. We have zero information other than someone with the police told her that. Why should we have any level of confidence in such a vague tweet?

 

Add the scuffle beforehand, and even if the shooting wasn't 100% justified and the officer had other potential alternatives (a dubious claim given the distance and timing involved, if true), it's not a "victimless crime" here. Brown was a criminal who attacked a cop and unfortunately died for being a moron. I don't pity those types of people.

 

The struggle beforehand has been part of the story since the beginning.

 

I don't know what you mean by victimless crime here, you must have meant something else. Brown stole some cigars. He also apparently struggled with the officer, possibly trying to reach for his weapon. But at some point, Brown turned and ran. That is not in dispute at this point. Once that occurs, the police officer isn't justified to keep firing at Brown. If the officer shot and killed Brown in an unjustified shooting, then he was just another criminal, someone who committed a far worse crime than stealing a box of cigars.

[StrangeSox]

What's a legitimate warning? You need to move to another area-yes sir. Since when is listening to police about moving optional?

By this logic, every police action is justified by default. Reporting on police abuse and overreaction? The police can just tell you to "move along, nothing to see here" and then gas you with impunity.

[Jenksismyhero]

This assumes that you can have faith in internal affairs audits or judicial proceedings in these sorts of cases. Didn't bmags post something about there never being a single officer-involved shooting ruled unjustified in Wisconsin, ever?

 

Who cares about internal audits, i'm talking civil cases. There are a s*** ton of those and they are successful. Hell, I owe my job to my firm obtaining a 2.5 million dollar verdict in a police brutality case. And it wasn't even that strong of a case.

 

Oh but you want to fire the incompetent cop too. Well, as i'm sure you're aware, they're fully unionized and those police unions are powerful sons of b****es, so good luck with that.

 

You'd be surprised!

 

But more to the point, it makes cops out to be dumb babies incapable of controlling their emotions. If you can't do your job without resorting to violence because someone argued with you or called you a racist, then find a new job.

 

While those types of cops out there exist, and they're mostly control freaks and assholes, you still bite your tongue and follow their instructions. And you do that because you know that it's just going to be a bigger pain in the ass if you speak up. My wife and I just had this happen to us over parking (standing) in a handicap spot for literally 5 seconds. I wanted to scream at the cop and get his badge number and raise hell for being an asshole about the whole thing. But ya know what, I didn't. And after 3 minutes he gave us a warning and let us go. And while I was pissed, it was done and over with and life moved on. Had I been an ass about it, it would have been 100 times worse i'm sure.

 

So like telling your parents or your boss what's what, you close your mouth, you deal with it, and everyone moves on. That's how most civilized people operate. When you scream at cops and yell at cops and disobey orders, like parents or bosses, they get pissed and they'll lash out in response.

[caulfield12]

This assumes that you can have faith in internal affairs audits or judicial proceedings in these sorts of cases. Didn't bmags post something about there never being a single officer-involved shooting ruled unjustified in Wisconsin, ever?

 

 

You'd be surprised!

 

But more to the point, it makes cops out to be dumb babies incapable of controlling their emotions. If you can't do your job without resorting to violence because someone argued with you or called you a racist, then find a new job.

 

 

It goes beyond that. If/when the case goes to trial, there's going to be another disaster looming for Ferguson if they don't move the trial venue or change prosecutors.

 

 

 

McCulloch has been the St. Louis County prosecutor for more than 20 years, and during that time has been involved with a support group called BackStoppers, which helps the families of police officers killed in the line of duty.

 

The prosecutor’s father, Paul McCulloch, was a St. Louis police officer when he was gunned down July 2, 1964, at age 37 while trying to arrest a kidnapper. He had answered a call by an officer in need of assistance at a housing complex and died in a shootout. One of the shooters was wounded and was later convicted of murder.

 

 

This is not the first time McCulloch’s objectivity has been questioned because of how his father died.

 

In July 2000, questions were raised about his leading an investigation into two white police officers who fatally shot two black men. The two officers, undercover drug agents, shot Earl Murray and Ronald Beasley, both unarmed, on June 12, 2000, in the parking lot of a fast-food restaurant in the St. Louis suburb of Berkeley. A county grand jury declined to indict the officers; McCulloch said he agreed with the decision.

 

“My father was killed many, many years ago, and it’s certainly not something you forget, but it’s certainly not something that clouds my judgment in looking at a case,” McCulloch told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch at the time. “It certainly makes you more aware of the severity of it.”

www.washingtonpost.com

[RockRaines]

By this logic, every police action is justified by default. Reporting on police abuse and overreaction? The police can just tell you to "move along, nothing to see here" and then gas you with impunity.

Thats a hell of a jump. If I am walking through an area where there are riots and I dont listen to multiple warnings about gassing and then get gassed, then it would be more accurate to the scenario.

[caulfield12]

Who cares about internal audits, i'm talking civil cases. There are a s*** ton of those and they are successful. Hell, I owe my job to my firm obtaining a 2.5 million dollar verdict in a police brutality case. And it wasn't even that strong of a case.

 

Oh but you want to fire the incompetent cop too. Well, as i'm sure you're aware, they're fully unionized and those police unions are powerful sons of b****es, so good luck with that.

 

 

 

While those types of cops out there exist, and they're mostly control freaks and assholes, you still bite your tongue and follow their instructions. And you do that because you know that it's just going to be a bigger pain in the ass if you speak up. My wife and I just had this happen to us over parking (standing) in a handicap spot for literally 5 seconds. I wanted to scream at the cop and get his badge number and raise hell for being an asshole about the whole thing. But ya know what, I didn't. And after 3 minutes he gave us a warning and let us go. And while I was pissed, it was done and over with and life moved on. Had I been an ass about it, it would have been 100 times worse i'm sure.

 

So like telling your parents or your boss what's what, you close your mouth, you deal with it, and everyone moves on. That's how most civilized people operate. When you scream at cops and yell at cops and disobey orders, like parents or bosses, they get pissed and they'll lash out in response.

 

 

Are your parents or boss receiving salaries based upon your taxes contributed to the government?

 

There's a different standard at play here for private entities/corporations versus public servants, and it's something every policeman, firefighter, EMS worker or even teacher is well aware of when they choose to get into that line of work.

 

Every teacher knows one false or fraudulent allegation from a student, even if unproven or dismissed, can ruin a career and make it nearly impossible to get another job.

 

 

[DrunkBomber]

This assumes that their demands and warnings, if they had happened, were legitimate in the first place. Either way, the best defense that the police managed to mount in that case was that "it wasn't us! we don't know who fired it! either way, it definitely wasn't intentional!"

 

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/...r-gas/14042747/

 

There wasn't anything going on in the area and the police haven't even tried to justify their actions in that case. They've been arresting journalists and protesters, detaining them overnight without any charges. They've dispersed peaceful crowds with tear gas and sound cannons. They've had dozens of deadly weapons pointed at unarmed civilians. Like I said, this isn't even controversial. The state police were brought in because of the overreaction during the first week.

If the reports of the police having guns fired at them and molotov cocktails being thrown at them is true than I dont really blame them for being overly cautious. There might be a peaceful group protesting but its not really reasonable to expect the cops to be able to fully know what every mobs intentions are. When there are people going around lawlessly looting stores, shooting at cops, starting fires unfortunately they ruin it for the peaceful protesters. Im all for freedom of the press as well but in this case it seems like a handful of media outlets are going out of their way to fire up the crowds. Then there are also situations like this where a journalist is straight up getting attacked by a mob of looters. Its possible the cops asked them to leave to avoid stuff like this to prevent them from getting hurt and they refused to listen.

[RockRaines]

There was Piaget Crenshaw, who saw the shooting and then got her phone to record the aftermath. I haven't seen anything indicating that she did not see the shooting, and I can't find anything on google.

She said she missed 30 seconds of it and only came back to see him laying in the street. It was in her interview. She essentially saw nothing.

[StrangeSox]

While those types of cops out there exist, and they're mostly control freaks and assholes, you still bite your tongue and follow their instructions. And you do that because you know that it's just going to be a bigger pain in the ass if you speak up. My wife and I just had this happen to us over parking (standing) in a handicap spot for literally 5 seconds. I wanted to scream at the cop and get his badge number and raise hell for being an asshole about the whole thing. But ya know what, I didn't. And after 3 minutes he gave us a warning and let us go. And while I was pissed, it was done and over with and life moved on. Had I been an ass about it, it would have been 100 times worse i'm sure.

 

Sure, but think of it as a form of victim-blaming. You could change a few words and it could be advice to just take any criminal action short of death passively because you might just anger the person into harming you even more otherwise. It's not that it's necessarily wise to criticize an officer, it's just that there's zero reason to accept that there's a decent number of officers who would react to being questioned or called names by beating, tasering or shooting someone. Think about that; he's trying to at least partially justify physical violence in response to insulting a cop. Why should any of us find that acceptable?

 

So like telling your parents or your boss what's what, you close your mouth, you deal with it, and everyone moves on. That's how most civilized people operate. When you scream at cops and yell at cops and disobey orders, like parents or bosses, they get pissed and they'll lash out in response.

 

Only if they're petty authoritarians will they lash out because someone dared to question them.

[StrangeSox]

Thats a hell of a jump. If I am walking through an area where there are riots and I dont listen to multiple warnings about gassing and then get gassed, then it would be more accurate to the scenario.

quit making that bad, wrong assumption that there are constant riots here. There weren't riots anywhere near the al jazeera crew--I don't think there were any riots that night period. There definitely weren't riots inside of McDonalds. The guy with multiple M4's pointed at him wasn't rioting.

[Jenksismyhero]

There was Piaget Crenshaw, who saw the shooting and then got her phone to record the aftermath. I haven't seen anything indicating that she did not see the shooting, and I can't find anything on google.

 

There was also Tiffany Mitchell, who told a story very similar to Crenshaw's version of events.

 

Are these the same witnesses that said he was shot in the back as he was running away? Which doesn't seem likely now?

 

There was one tweet from a local reporter. We have zero information other than someone with the police told her that. Why should we have any level of confidence in such a vague tweet?

 

 

The struggle beforehand has been part of the story since the beginning.

 

I don't know what you mean by victimless crime here, you must have meant something else. Brown stole some cigars. He also apparently struggled with the officer, possibly trying to reach for his weapon. But at some point, Brown turned and ran. That is not in dispute at this point. Once that occurs, the police officer isn't justified to keep firing at Brown. If the officer shot and killed Brown in an unjustified shooting, then he was just another criminal, someone who committed a far worse crime than stealing a box of cigars.

 

He attacked a cop. He caused facial fractures. He's not some random victim of a cold-blooded killer cop. I don't care if he ran away, he's not the "victim" that he's being portrayed as.

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

Thats a hell of a jump. If I am walking through an area where there are riots and I dont listen to multiple warnings about gassing and then get gassed, then it would be more accurate to the scenario.

 

There was no rioting, or even protesting, going on at the time.

 

The police gassed reporters...for being reporters.

[StrangeSox]

If the reports of the police having guns fired at them and molotov cocktails being thrown at them is true than I dont really blame them for being overly cautious. There might be a peaceful group protesting but its not really reasonable to expect the cops to be able to fully know what every mobs intentions are. When there are people going around lawlessly looting stores, shooting at cops, starting fires unfortunately they ruin it for the peaceful protesters. Im all for freedom of the press as well but in this case it seems like a handful of media outlets are going out of their way to fire up the crowds. Then there are also situations like this where a journalist is straight up getting attacked by a mob of looters. Its possible the cops asked them to leave to avoid stuff like this to prevent them from getting hurt and they refused to listen.

there was no rioting or looting going on at the time of many of the incidents of overreaction.

[StrangeSox]

Are these the same witnesses that said he was shot in the back as he was running away? Which doesn't seem likely now?

 

These are the same witnesses who said the officer fired at Brown as he was running away. They initially believed he had been hit in the back. Being wrong about whether or not he was actually hit from behind doesn't really call the whole situation into question.

 

He attacked a cop. He caused facial fractures. He's not some random victim of a cold-blooded killer cop. I don't care if he ran away, he's not the "victim" that he's being portrayed as.

 

That's pretty messed up. You should absolutely care if he ran away and if the officer fired at him while he was fleeing or if he put his hands up. Attacking a cop isn't carte blanche for the cop to summarily execute you for assault.

[RockRaines]

There was no rioting, or even protesting, going on at the time.

 

The police gassed reporters...for being reporters.

Based on what info? Why would the cameras be rolling with nothing going on, doesnt make sense.

[Jenksismyhero]

Sure, but think of it as a form of victim-blaming. You could change a few words and it could be advice to just take any criminal action short of death passively because you might just anger the person into harming you even more otherwise. It's not that it's necessarily wise to criticize an officer, it's just that there's zero reason to accept that there's a decent number of officers who would react to being questioned or called names by beating, tasering or shooting someone. Think about that; he's trying to at least partially justify physical violence in response to insulting a cop. Why should any of us find that acceptable?

 

Ok, to that point I agree. That's along the lines of Stephen A. Smith telling women to stop provoking men into hitting them. But you and I both know there are people who engage cops in a really stupid way and all it does is cause more problems than is necessary. Be polite, follow instructions, and generally it's not going to be an issue. Be combative, defensive, stand your ground and ignore instructions, and you are going to force their hand. And sometimes a response is going to be justified depending on what you're doing.

 

Only if they're petty authoritarians will they lash out because someone dared to question them.

 

Lol, get back to me when you have a toddler that doesn't listen to anything you say (and i'm sure older parents will say a teenager).

 

[caulfield12]

Thats a hell of a jump. If I am walking through an area where there are riots and I dont listen to multiple warnings about gassing and then get gassed, then it would be more accurate to the scenario.

 

 

If this whole situation was handled appropriately in the beginning, then there wouldn't have been any need for gassing anyone. Someone who knew the community intimately and had the respect of locals in the first hours after the incident would have done a lot more good than Officer Ron Johnson 3-4 days too late, when the situation was already bordering on being out of control.

 

It has already reached the point where even if Officer Wilson is 100% cleared of wrong-doing or culpability, the story is going to be about the inappropriately militaristic response which totally exacerbated the situation instead of cooling things down, not the situation itself.

 

There's a pretty good reason that every "questionable shooting" doesn't break out into mass rioting/chaos/anarchy/looting in the United States, the famous (or infamous) case of Fruitvale Station in SF being a prime example.

Edited August 19, 2014 by caulfield12

[StrangeSox]

Based on what info? Why would the cameras be rolling with nothing going on, doesnt make sense.

There were protests going on, and police dispersal of peaceful protests. This is based on the police's own response where they didn't know which department gassed the al jazeera crew, but they did not try to justify along the lines you are.

 

Plus, that's just one incident. There definitely wasn't a riot going on mid-day at the McDonalds where they decided to arrest and assault some reporters.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Based on what info?

 

Based on the videos, and what the Al Jazeera reporters said.

 

Why would the cameras be rolling with nothing going on, doesnt make sense.

 

...they were filming a news segment. The reporter was in front of the camera with the 2 big lights on him.

[RockRaines]

If this whole situation was handled appropriately in the beginning, then there wouldn't have been any need for gassing anyone in the first place. Someone who knew the community intimately and had the respect of locals in the first hours after the incident would have done a lot more good than Officer Ron Johnson 3-4 days too late, when the situation was already bordering on being out of control.

 

It has already reached the point where even if Officer Wilson is 100% cleared of wrong-doing or culpability, the story is going to be about the inappropriately militaristic response which totally exacerbated the situation instead of cooling things down, not the situation itself.

 

There's a pretty good reason that every "questionable shooting" doesn't break out into mass rioting/chaos/anarchy/looting in the United States, the famous (or infamous) case of Fruitvale Station in SF being a prime example.

So what did those police do so differently? Why didnt the community decide that the cops were wrong and they needed to burn down local businesses?