Ferguson Riots

[Leonard Zelig]

Hey, I played poker at that casino a couple times back in August during the protests.

 

Don't forget to tip your dealers!

[cabiness42]

Don't forget to tip your dealers!

 

What do you deal?

[Jenksismyhero]

Nobody disputes that there was some sort of struggle at the car. Really, though, whether Brown attacked Wilson or Wilson grabbed Brown isn't really relevant. Even if we go with what's reported as Wilson's version of events, we're still left with Brown turning and running away from Wilson and Wilson chasing after him. At that point, he doesn't have justification to use deadly force on Brown.

 

Uh, disagree completely. That struggle - what happened, how it happened, etc. - sets the stage for how Wilson can act afterwards. If he was attacked, if Brown went after the gun, if Wilson was injured, Brown could have been 10-15 feet away and just motioned in Wilson's direction and I'd be fine with Wilson shooting him. The threat of danger was real given what he just went through. Brown is a person who just fought with a cop and tried to get his gun. He's capable of anything.

 

It's pretty confusing to me to hear people say (and you're not the only one) that the leaked evidence so far is persuasive in justifying the shooting. The only thing you've really got there Wilson's own version of events. Then there is the autopsy report, and I'm not sure why you take the reporter's second-hand version of what the medical examiner said over the medical examiner flat-out stating that she was misquoted.

 

I don't recall the specifics, but I remember that "misquote" being a bunch of bologna. I remember thinking the report basically summarized their verbal conversation, whereas her official statement wasn't really definitive about anything. To me, the verbal, conversational opinion is much more indicative of her conclusion that some canned, prepared statement about being misquoted.

 

edit: it essentially came down to "expert thinks forensics backs Wilson's claim" v. "I can't say with 100% certainty that the forensics back Wilson's claim." It was a hedge.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Leonard Zelig]

What do you deal?

Everything but poker, which is a separate department.

[cabiness42]

Everything but poker, which is a separate department.

 

Yeah, we very rarely play anything in a casino other than poker.

[StrangeSox]

Uh, disagree completely. That struggle - what happened, how it happened, etc. - sets the stage for how Wilson can act afterwards. If he was attacked, if Brown went after the gun, if Wilson was injured, Brown could have been 10-15 feet away and just motioned in Wilson's direction and I'd be fine with Wilson shooting him. The threat of danger was real given what he just went through. Brown is a person who just fought with a cop and tried to get his gun. He's capable of anything.

 

He was at least 30 feet away from Brown, and I'm pretty sure the law is not on your side with that interpretation.

 

But we're still back to there not being any evidence, leaked or otherwise, that we know about at this point that supports Brown making a move at Wilson. Maybe there are some witnesses we don't know about who testified to the GJ, but what's publicly known contradicts that claim.

 

I don't recall the specifics, but I remember that "misquote" being a bunch of bologna. I remember thinking the report basically summarized their verbal conversation, whereas her official statement wasn't really definitive about anything. To me, the verbal, conversational opinion is much more indicative of her conclusion that some canned, prepared statement about being misquoted.

 

She explicitly disavowed the conclusion the reporter stated in her piece. Which is good, because you can't even draw the conclusion the reporter stated from an autopsy result. You also can't know what the reporter did or didn't summarize because we don't have a transcript of their verbal conversation. It's equally possible that the reporter simply misunderstood what she was being told and ran with it because it'd be a big story (and it was!)

[southsider2k5]

 

 

 

Thomas McDermott Jr.

29 mins · Hammond, IN ·

FBI Investigation clears Hammond officers involved in Jones arrest- Hammond PD places both officers back on duty in Hammond's Patrol Division

http://tinyurl.com/n7qyp3h

[Balta1701]

Uh, disagree completely. That struggle - what happened, how it happened, etc. - sets the stage for how Wilson can act afterwards. If he was attacked, if Brown went after the gun, if Wilson was injured, Brown could have been 10-15 feet away and just motioned in Wilson's direction and I'd be fine with Wilson shooting him. The threat of danger was real given what he just went through. Brown is a person who just fought with a cop and tried to get his gun. He's capable of anything.

We've also got video of witnesses to the shooting immediately after it happened running to the scene yelling "he had his ****ing hands up".

[Jenksismyhero]

He was at least 30 feet away from Brown, and I'm pretty sure the law is not on your side with that interpretation.

 

But we're still back to there not being any evidence, leaked or otherwise, that we know about at this point that supports Brown making a move at Wilson. Maybe there are some witnesses we don't know about who testified to the GJ, but what's publicly known contradicts that claim.

 

 

She explicitly disavowed the conclusion the reporter stated in her piece. Which is good, because you can't even draw the conclusion the reporter stated from an autopsy result. You also can't know what the reporter did or didn't summarize because we don't have a transcript of their verbal conversation. It's equally possible that the reporter simply misunderstood what she was being told and ran with it because it'd be a big story (and it was!)

 

The law is grey. He needs to be in imminent danger of death or serious injury. If I were on the jury and if Brown was 30 feet away and moving towards him by an inch, I'm not convicting him. I'll say again: the dude attacked a cop and tried to take his gun. He's capable of anything. I'm not prescribing some BS proximity rule before he can shoot.

 

Btw, wasn't there a shot at the top of his head with facial abrasions? How is that possible unless he's barreling towards the guy?

[Jenksismyhero]

We've also got video of witnesses to the shooting immediately after it happened running to the scene yelling "he had his ****ing hands up".

 

Didn't that video get debunked though? Like, the witness admitted later that she didn't actually see it, she just heard that? There was something about that video that didn't add up but I don't remember what it was.

[NorthSideSox72]

The law is grey. He needs to be in imminent danger of death or serious injury. If I were on the jury and if Brown was 30 feet away and moving towards him by an inch, I'm not convicting him. I'll say again: the dude attacked a cop and tried to take his gun. He's capable of anything. I'm not prescribing some BS proximity rule before he can shoot.

 

Btw, wasn't there a shot at the top of his head with facial abrasions? How is that possible unless he's barreling towards the guy?

The general guideline for law enforcement in a lethal force situation, where the cop has a gun and the offender doesn't, is 21 feet. That isn't a hard and fast rule, it is a general number. Basically, inside 21 feet, if a suspect rushes you, they'll be on you before you can draw, aim and fire a gun.

 

But the other thing is, there are multiple reasons why that distance has flexibility. Not the least of which being that in such a situation, most people can't easily tell the difference in an instant between say 20 feet and 30 feet.

 

[StrangeSox]

The law is grey. He needs to be in imminent danger of death or serious injury. If I were on the jury and if Brown was 30 feet away and moving towards him by an inch, I'm not convicting him. I'll say again: the dude attacked a cop and tried to take his gun. He's capable of anything. I'm not prescribing some BS proximity rule before he can shoot.

 

We don't know what happened in the car. We only know that there was a struggle and that Brown got shot in the hand. You're having to assume your conclusion to let Wilson off the hook here.

 

Btw, wasn't there a shot at the top of his head with facial abrasions? How is that possible unless he's barreling towards the guy?

 

Brown was shot several times in the head and chest. He's going to fall down from that, and if he falls forward, it's not hard to have one of the bullets hit him in the top of the head.

 

[StrangeSox]

Didn't that video get debunked though? Like, the witness admitted later that she didn't actually see it, she just heard that? There was something about that video that didn't add up but I don't remember what it was.

 

No, and there was also video of two construction workers who witnessed it saying something similar.

[Jenksismyhero]

We don't know what happened in the car. We only know that there was a struggle and that Brown got shot in the hand. You're having to assume your conclusion to let Wilson off the hook here.

 

We know what Wilson supposedly told investigators. And I don't know that that's ever really been questioned. Why would Wilson attack Brown if he's in the squad car? Why would the gun go off? If you were just attacked by a cop and you got away, why would you suddenly surrender? None of that really adds up. What does add up is that the kid just robbed a store, he's stopped by a cop and decides he's not going to be taken to jail and tries to obtain the upper hand from the cop but fails.

 

Brown was shot several times in the head and chest. He's going to fall down from that, and if he falls forward, it's not hard to have one of the bullets hit him in the top of the head.

 

Yeah see this is the biggest problem for me with this theory. Basically Wilson has to be a calculated, cold blooded killer. He had to refrain from shooting Brown as he's running away from the car, wait until Brown finally surrenders, and THEN shoot him. I find that incredibly hard to believe.

[Jenksismyhero]

Drinking game for tonight: Do a shot every time somebody misuses the term "verdict" when discussing the grand jury's decision.

 

one:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30185686

[NorthSideSox72]

We know what Wilson supposedly told investigators. And I don't know that that's ever really been questioned. Why would Wilson attack Brown if he's in the squad car? Why would the gun go off? If you were just attacked by a cop and you got away, why would you suddenly surrender? None of that really adds up. What does add up is that the kid just robbed a store, he's stopped by a cop and decides he's not going to be taken to jail and tries to obtain the upper hand from the cop but fails.

 

 

 

Yeah see this is the biggest problem for me with this theory. Basically Wilson has to be a calculated, cold blooded killer. He had to refrain from shooting Brown as he's running away from the car, wait until Brown finally surrenders, and THEN shoot him. I find that incredibly hard to believe.

 

Or he panicked a little. That happens in police work. When you are very tense, sometimes it doesn't take a lot for that 8 pounds of pressure to be applied.

 

Not saying that is what happened, just pointing out a possibility.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

FWIW, here's the Wikipedia breakdown of the witnesses and their knowledge:

 

Dorian Johnson

 

Dorian Johnson, a friend of Brown, was walking with him in the street. Johnson said that Wilson pulled up beside them and said, "Get the f*** on the sidewalk."[65][66][67][68] The young men replied that they were "not but a minute away from [their] destination, and [they] would shortly be out of the street".[68] Wilson drove forward without saying anything further, only to abruptly back up, positioning his vehicle crosswise in their path, almost hitting the two men. "We were so close, almost inches away, that when he tried to open his door aggressively, the door ricocheted both off me and Big Mike's body and closed back on the officer."[29]

 

Wilson, still in his vehicle, grabbed Brown around his neck through the open window.[36] Brown tried to pull away, but Wilson continued to pull Brown toward him "like tug of war".[69] Brown "did not reach for the officer's weapon at all", and was attempting to get free of Wilson rather than attack him or take his weapon from him.[66][70][71][72][73] Wilson drew his weapon and said, "I'll shoot you" or "I'm going to shoot", and almost instantaneously fired his weapon, hitting Brown.

 

Following the initial gunshot, Brown was able to free himself, at which point the two fled. Wilson exited the vehicle, after which he fired several rounds at the fleeing Brown, hitting him once in the back.[29][68] Brown turned around with his hands raised and said, "I don't have a gun. Stop shooting!" Wilson then shot Brown several more times, killing him.[29][50] Johnson's attorney stated that Wilson did not attempt to resuscitate Brown, did not call for medical help, and "he didn't call it in that someone had been shot."[6] Johnson told local TV stations shortly after the shooting that Brown had been surrendering[74] when Wilson opened fire without cause or warning.

 

Johnson's attorney, Freeman Bosley, stated that Johnson had confirmed with law enforcement his and Brown's roles in taking the cigars prior to the shooting incident.[51]

 

Michael Brady

 

Michael T. Brady, who lived near the scene of the shooting, said that he observed an initial altercation on the police vehicle while inside looking through a window. "It was something strange. Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right." Brady could see Johnson at the front passenger side of the vehicle when he and Brown started running suddenly; he did not hear a gunshot or see what caused them to run. He saw Wilson get out of the vehicle and "start walking briskly while firing on Brown as he fled".[32]

 

Brady then ran outside with his camera phone to record the event. By the time he got outside, Brown had turned around and was facing Wilson. Brown was "balled up" with his arms under his stomach and he was "halfway down" to the ground. As he was falling, Brown took one or two steps toward Wilson because he was presumably hit and was stumbling forward; Wilson then shot him three or four times. Brady said that the pictures he took of Brown with his arms tucked in under his body is the position he was in as he was shot three or four more times by Wilson before hitting the ground.[75]

 

Piaget Crenshaw

 

Piaget Crenshaw said that, from her vantage point, it appeared that Wilson and Brown were arm wrestling before the former shot Brown from inside his vehicle. Wilson then chased Brown for about 20 feet before shooting him again. "I saw the police chase him ... down the street and shoot him down."[76] When Brown then raised his arms, the officer shot him two more times, killing him.[77]

 

According to earlier reports that appeared on August 10, Crenshaw saw Brown attempt to flee with his hands in the air and that he was hit with several shots as he ran.[73][78]

 

On August 18, after the release of Baden's autopsy report, Crenshaw told CNN that no shots hit Brown's back as he was running away, "Clearly none of [the shots] hit him, but one, I think, did graze him as they said on the autopsy report. At the end, he just turned around ... after I'm guessing he felt the bullet grazed his arm, he turned around and he was shot multiple times."[79]

 

Tiffany Mitchell

 

Tiffany Mitchell arrived in the area to pick up coworker Piaget Crenshaw.[29] In an August 13 televised interview with a local CBS affiliate, Mitchell said she saw Brown and Wilson struggling through the window of Wilson's vehicle. "The kid was pulling off and the cop was pulling in." She started to take out her phone to record video, but then she heard a gunshot, "so I just started getting out of the way." After the first shot was fired, Brown started to run away. "After the shot, the kid just breaks away. The cop follows him, kept shooting, the kid's body jerked as if he was hit. After his body jerked he turns around, puts his hands up, and the cop continues to walk up on him and continues to shoot until he goes all the way down."[80]

 

Mitchell also appeared on CNN that evening, describing what she witnessed as follows: "As I pull onto the side, the kid, he finally gets away, he starts running. As he runs the police get out of his vehicle and he follows behind him, shooting. And the kid's body jerked as if he was hit from behind, and he turns around and puts his hands up like this, and the cop continued to fire until he just dropped down to the ground and his face just smacks the concrete."[81]

 

Construction worker

 

A construction worker at the nearby apartment complex, who spoke to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on condition of anonymity, said that he saw Brown running away with Wilson 10 to 15 feet behind. About 90 feet away from the vehicle, Wilson fired a shot at Brown, whose back was turned. Brown stumbled, stopped, put his hands up and said "OK, OK, OK, OK, OK." The worker believed Brown had been wounded. With his hands up, Brown began walking toward the officer, at which point Wilson began firing at Brown and backing away. After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker was unable to discern if Brown's movement toward the officer was "a stumble to the ground" or "OK, I'm going to get you, you're already shooting me." The worker disputed the claim, by defenders of Wilson, that Brown rushed at the officer, "I don't know if he was going after him or if he was falling down to die. It wasn't a bull rush."[82]

 

In a cellphone video obtained by CNN on September 11, which captured the reaction of the construction worker and a colleague, one of them can be heard saying "He had his f**n hands up." The workers said they were approximately 50 feet away from Wilson when he opened fire. Jeffrey Toobin, CNN's legal analyst said that this video could play an important role in the case.[83]

 

James McKnight

 

James McKnight said he witnessed the shooting and that Brown held his hands in the air just after he turned to face Wilson. He stumbled toward the officer, but didn't rush him, and "the officer was about six or seven feet away" from Brown.[32]

 

Phillip Walker

 

Phillip Walker, a 40-year-old resident of a nearby apartment complex, said he saw Brown walking "at a steady pace" toward Wilson with his hands up and that he "did not rush the officer", adding that Wilson's final shot was from a distance of about four feet.[82]

 

Emanuel Freeman

 

Emanuel Freeman, a 19-year-old resident of a nearby apartment complex, on witnessing the shooting, began tweeting about the incident two minutes after it began. Freeman stated that Wilson fired twice at Brown while he was running away, and five more times after he turned around to face Wilson.[84][85]

 

Grand jury witnesses

 

On October 16, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch published an interview with a black Canfield resident who testified before the grand jury. The man, who did not want his name released, said he saw the entire event. Wilson drove past Johnson and Brown and then backed up again. A scuffle ensued in the police vehicle and Wilson's hat flew off. There was a gunshot at the vehicle, and then Brown ran down the street followed by Wilson. Wilson aimed his gun at Brown and repeatedly yelled "Stop", but did not fire until Brown turned around and stepped toward Wilson. At that point Wilson fired three shots. Brown staggered toward Wilson from 20 feet away with his hands out to his sides, when Wilson fired again. The witness said that Brown was already falling as the last shots were fired and that, in his opinion, the final shots were murder.[39]

 

According to several people close to the grand jury investigation, seven or eight witnesses have given testimony consistent with Wilson's account. Details of the testimony were not reported. Speaking on condition of anonymity to The Washington Post, the sources said that the witnesses are all African American, and that they have not spoken publicly out of fear for their safety.[63]

 

Bystander heard on video

 

An unidentified bystander, heard speaking in the background of a video recorded shortly after the shooting, is heard saying that after Brown stopped running and turned, "Next thing I know he's coming back towards the police. The police had his gun drawn on him. Police kept dumping on him, I'm thinking that the police missed him." The bystander said that he heard "at least five shots". He continued, "I think ... dude start running, kept coming toward the police."[86][87]

 

[StrangeSox]

Right, and that's the point. Jenks has to assume a lot of things to get to the point where "probable cause" isn't even met.

 

The other kid Brown was with claimed Wilson grabbed Brown first, so that's in dispute. Other witnesses claim they saw Brown trying to pull away from Wilson during the struggle. There's no other witnesses for what happened in the car: did Brown go for his gun to what, kill a cop? hold him at gunpoint? Did Wilson go to draw his weapon during the struggle and, seeing that, Brown tried to push the barrel away? Based on where Brown was shot in the hand, that matches up with the physical evidence we have.

 

Assuming he actually had just attacked Wilson, why would he turn and stop? Because he's already been shot in the hand and probably can't really outrun anyone at 300lbs. What doesn't add up is why he'd run 70 feet or so away, stop, turn around and then charge at the guy with a gun who just shot him. And at least one witness stated that Wilson was firing at Brown as he ran away. There's nothing "cold-blooded" with how Brown got shot in the head. In fact, that part isn't even in dispute. That was the final, fatal shot so it absolutely happened as Brown was falling to the ground. Nothing about the autopsy indicates that he was charging at Wilson.

[Jenksismyhero]

Right, and that's the point. Jenks has to assume a lot of things to get to the point where "probable cause" isn't even met.

 

The other kid Brown was with claimed Wilson grabbed Brown first, so that's in dispute. Other witnesses claim they saw Brown trying to pull away from Wilson during the struggle. There's no other witnesses for what happened in the car: did Brown go for his gun to what, kill a cop? hold him at gunpoint? Did Wilson go to draw his weapon during the struggle and, seeing that, Brown tried to push the barrel away? Based on where Brown was shot in the hand, that matches up with the physical evidence we have.

 

Assuming he actually had just attacked Wilson, why would he turn and stop? Because he's already been shot in the hand and probably can't really outrun anyone at 300lbs. What doesn't add up is why he'd run 70 feet or so away, stop, turn around and then charge at the guy with a gun who just shot him. And at least one witness stated that Wilson was firing at Brown as he ran away. There's nothing "cold-blooded" with how Brown got shot in the head. In fact, that part isn't even in dispute. That was the final, fatal shot so it absolutely happened as Brown was falling to the ground. Nothing about the autopsy indicates that he was charging at Wilson.

 

The other kid Brown was with is not a credible witness at all IMO. He's the only one that supports the theory that Wilson initiated the fight.

 

edit: re the bolded: it's cold blooded because Wilson is shooting someone who is unarmed, down on the ground and injured. And he's supposedly within 4-8 feet of him when he fires the last 4-5 shots.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

He's no less credible than Wilson himself IMO since he's trying to save his own ass from a murder charge.

 

The allegation isn't that Wilson shot Brown as he was on the ground, but that he kept firing as Brown was falling to the ground due to the other shots. Which, really, is the only way for that to have happened, justified or not. Brown was also shot in the chest and head several times prior to the final shot through the top of the head, and the angles just don't really work out if you assume he was charging at Wilson with his head completely down. Which is sort of silly anyway, because who runs at somebody with their face pointing straight down?

[RockRaines]

He was at least 30 feet away from Brown, and I'm pretty sure the law is not on your side with that interpretation.

 

But we're still back to there not being any evidence, leaked or otherwise, that we know about at this point that supports Brown making a move at Wilson. Maybe there are some witnesses we don't know about who testified to the GJ, but what's publicly known contradicts that claim.

 

 

 

She explicitly disavowed the conclusion the reporter stated in her piece. Which is good, because you can't even draw the conclusion the reporter stated from an autopsy result. You also can't know what the reporter did or didn't summarize because we don't have a transcript of their verbal conversation. It's equally possible that the reporter simply misunderstood what she was being told and ran with it because it'd be a big story (and it was!)

Wasnt there medical evidence and an autopsy just released that basically disputes him running or being far away?

[Balta1701]

Didn't that video get debunked though? Like, the witness admitted later that she didn't actually see it, she just heard that? There was something about that video that didn't add up but I don't remember what it was.

There was one video of a witness like that which was debunked, but a couple weeks ago CNN actually got (and I posted in here) video reportedly taken right after the shooting, not during (i.e. they started filming when they heard the gunshots) and there were people running at the cop in the video yelling "He had his f***ing hands up".

 

This wasn't a witness saying she didn't see it, that's the reaction of people in real time. People who saw the shooting on the spot were running in yelling that. Whatever happened beforehand, whatever the witnesses say, video taken seconds after the shooting includes those phrases.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm curious, let's flip the switch here: Let's take the cop component out of this. You just have person A allegedly shoots person B at a party. You've got what amounts to 50/50 testimony, with some people saying he did it, some people saying he didn't. He obviously denies it. Do you bring charges on that kind of case? What if he's convicted? Would you not be all up in arms that he was convicted on conflicting evidence? My guess is no - to find guilt you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. You need some good, hard evidence. 50/50 generally isn't enough because you're presumed innocent until proven guilty.

 

Why is the situation reversed when a cop is involved? Why is it basically that the cop is guilty unless he proves himself innocent? Here you've got, at best, a split in the testimony (this assumes that the anonymous witnesses were found and gave testimony consistent with the newspaper articles). Some say he's surrendering, some say he isn't. Some say he's shooting him down from the back, some deny it. Why the different perspective?

[RockRaines]

I'm curious, let's flip the switch here: Let's take the cop component out of this. You just have person A allegedly shoots person B at a party. You've got what amounts to 50/50 testimony, with some people saying he did it, some people saying he didn't. He obviously denies it. Do you bring charges on that kind of case? What if he's convicted? Would you not be all up in arms that he was convicted on conflicting evidence? My guess is no - to find guilt you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. You need some good, hard evidence. 50/50 generally isn't enough because you're presumed innocent until proven guilty.

 

Why is the situation reversed when a cop is involved? Why is it basically that the cop is guilty unless he proves himself innocent? Here you've got, at best, a split in the testimony (this assumes that the anonymous witnesses were found and gave testimony consistent with the newspaper articles). Some say he's surrendering, some say he isn't. Some say he's shooting him down from the back, some deny it. Why the different perspective?

Well only if it happened in a party where everyone there has some sort of hatred for the organization the shooter works for.

[StrangeSox]

Wasnt there medical evidence and an autopsy just released that basically disputes him running or being far away?

The one shot to his hand was at close range. There was gunpowder residue in the wound. That's believed to have come during the struggle in/through the car in which two rounds were fired.

 

The other shots all appeared to enter from his front side, but they were not at close range (close meaning within a couple feet). He was not shot in the back, but IIRC one of the arm wounds was inconclusive. What it doesn't and can't rule out is if Wilson shot at him as he ran away but didn't hit him.