Ferguson Riots

[southsideirish71]

Wilson also described Brown as looking like a Demon:

 

 

 

Wild animal who only gets more enraged as you shoot him; a demon. This sounds like reasonable testimony sufficient enough to rule out even probable cause for an indictment.

 

 

So if you get stopped by a police officer is it your normal action to start a confrontation with him. Because thats what happened with Mike. Now I was taught to be polite, to use yes sir and no sir with authorities in all avenues. The 6'4 300 pound man who decided to start a struggle with a man with a firearm. If a 6'4 300 pound man decides to fight me, he is going to win. No matter the training I have had, no matter what I am doing in the battle. I can tell you he is going to win. Anyone that disputes that is either 300 pounds and that size themselves or delusional.

 

People have a misguided view on physical altercations. Mostly because they haven't been in anything but a simple schoolyard fight. Two men will fight using only their fists and the victor will immediately stop the minute the threat is over. That doesn't happen. They believe that just like the movies or the video games. Once you shoot someone, they immediately stop aggressive behavior. They immediately say, well wait a second I have been shot I should stop this foolishness. Its not like fight or flight kicks in or that they could be on some sort of narcotic that can alter or change their reality. People also believe that every cop is a sharp shooter. During a fight in a cramped space or moving or fighting with someone who is stronger than you trying to get your gun. Its not a silhouette at 40 yards in a controlled situation. Not every shot hits a vital organ, slows or stops the person or is a kill shot.

 

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I personally hate the jury trial system and wish it would go away. But I also don't think this case really shows any reason to keep or get rid of it.

 

One thing that upsets me here, as I read about it, is the way the prosecutor handled the GJ. The fact that it was done so dramatically differently (basically turning it into a trial), and then delivering a bizarre, nearly impossible to understand final instruction set to the jury that made it sounds like they needed to find absolute proof to indict... that is a major failure here.

 

I don't pretend to know what happened on that street, but I am pretty darn sure of these things:

 

1. There is some awful silliness in this thread on both sides

2. The prosecutor's office who handled the GJ was incompetent

3. NONE of us actually know what happened on that street

Disagreed. This was done intentionally. They didn't want to indict and used an intentionally sabotaged GJ process as cover. This wasn't even a new GJ, so they had already seen a bunch of other cases presented in a way to clearly get an indictment (like most GJ's) and then they suddenly get this "both sides" "gee, we simple prosecutors just don't know what to do!" case.

 

The prosecutors asked Wilson a bunch of questions that painted him as a baby-saving hero, for christ's sake.

[Jenksismyhero]

You specifically responded to me saying that this should have been heard in a jury trial presented as an actual case with the point "oh you can't have understood that fear".

 

No one on a jury is going to have understood that either. No one on the grand jury would have either. Why should we trust their opinions based on what you just said?

 

No, it was your and SS' disbelief about Wilson's testimony that i'm getting that.

[chw42]

Go to a school. "Those kids are acting like animals" is probably a daily occurrence.

 

Yeah, black and hispanic kids.

 

I know most of the people here aren't racists, but in general, "animal" is used to describe minorities when they do something out of the norm. Don't pretend that's not true.

[NorthSideSox72]

I totally disagree with this. I think he got exactly the result he wanted, which was not having to make a public case against a local police officer, and he handled the case in a way to make that happen. No incompetence at all, did it exactly the way he wanted to get that result.

I'm open to that being possible. So I'll say incompetent and/or corrupt.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

It is not remotely believable that Brown kept charging at Wilson, only getting stronger with each bullet that hit him.

 

He's a 300 lb dude with adrenaline pumping through his body. Obviously he's not being literal there either.

[StrangeSox]

Um, the press conference last night? He mentioned this approx. 5 times.

He said a lot of dumb things. I want an actual citation to the "full evidence" that they released.

[cabiness42]

It is not remotely believable that Brown kept charging at Wilson, only getting stronger with each bullet that hit him.

 

Everybody is going to embellish a little bit. It's human nature. What is a fact is that a kid who had already been shot managed to move 21 feet directly towards the officer. If I have a gun pointed at you and you move directly toward me 21 feet I am going to shoot.

[Balta1701]

None of that would have stopped this and you know it.

 

The prosecutor went overboard because of pressure on both sides. He laid everything out and was transparent about it from the get go. The leaks are still bulls***, since really other than Wilson's testimony, nothing was leaked. We learned for the first time last night that many of the witnesses changed their story and/or admitted they didn't actually witness the entire thing. That wasn't part of the narrative either.

 

Surely mistakes were made as there are in every investigation and ever hearing, but nothing egregious. Nothing that would have changed the outcome here.

 

You're just looking for a scapegoat.

A grand jury presentation is pretty much the exact opposite of transparent. A transparently conducted case is one where a prosecutor takes enough evidence to the grand jury to obtain an indictment and then conducts a public trial in an adversarial process, with the prosecutor arguing the case and the defendant calling witnesses to support that case.

 

This is not a transparent or overboard case at all. This was not conducted in an adversarial sense. The person who talked for 20 minutes about how the evidence in his opinion wasn't consistent and the officer was believable was the person whose job it was to do the prosecution and who also happens to, by all accounts, be close to that police department anyway.

 

This was set up to return no indictment. There's no reason whatsoever to present exculpatory evidence to a grand jury unless you want them to not return an indictment. Their job is to determine whether there is probable cause to bring a case to trial, not to try the case.

[bmags]

I'm open to that being possible. So I'll say incompetent and/or corrupt.

 

So he sounds like a STL prosecutor to me.

[RockRaines]

Yeah, black and hispanic kids.

 

I know most of the people here aren't racists, but in general, "animal" is used to describe minorities when they do something out of the norm. Don't pretend that's not true.

LOL, no. Predominantly white at the school I was at. My wife's school was in skokie.

 

I'm not pretending anything, I would refer to people acting like animals if they act like animals.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, black and hispanic kids.

 

I know most of the people here aren't racists, but in general, "animal" is used to describe minorities when they do something out of the norm. Don't pretend that's not true.

That's a good example of how racism isn't always or even mainly about individual, KKK-style racists but underlying perceptions, stereotypes, language etc. that we're not even consciously aware of for the most part.

[RockRaines]

As they are calling the fraternity animals are they advocating the arms of the state act against them?

If they burn down a little ceasars, yes.

[caulfield12]

It's certainly not the job of a PROSECUTOR to present his own version of an NBC Olympic Hero profile to build up additional sympathy for the officer that's under investigation. Doesn't exactly sound impartial...more like a self-fulfilling prophecy, where they took the available evidence and forced it to fit a foregone conclusion.

[StrangeSox]

None of that would have stopped this and you know it.

 

The prosecutor went overboard because of pressure on both sides. He laid everything out and was transparent about it from the get go. The leaks are still bulls***, since really other than Wilson's testimony, nothing was leaked. We learned for the first time last night that many of the witnesses changed their story and/or admitted they didn't actually witness the entire thing. That wasn't part of the narrative either.

 

Surely mistakes were made as there are in every investigation and ever hearing, but nothing egregious. Nothing that would have changed the outcome here.

 

You're just looking for a scapegoat.

 

This was handled completely differently from the regular GJ process. It was a sham, and it was done intentionally to give cover for not charging Wilson.

 

If the prosecutors simply thought that there wasn't enough evidence, then they should have had the courage to make the determination themselves explicitly and present their reasoning. Instead, they go this route so that they can place the burden on a GJ that they've rigged to get the outcome they wanted anyway but provide themselves a shield.

 

If they make their own case instead of going with the GJ shield in the first place, there's less rage and less transparent corruption that's driving the rage and reaction in the first place.

[caulfield12]

If they burn down a little ceasars, yes.

 

 

Maybe they're upset that Mike Illitch keeps spending truckloads of money on the Tigers' bloated roster.

[chw42]

I personally hate the jury trial system and wish it would go away. But I also don't think this case really shows any reason to keep or get rid of it.

 

One thing that upsets me here, as I read about it, is the way the prosecutor handled the GJ. The fact that it was done so dramatically differently (basically turning it into a trial), and then delivering a bizarre, nearly impossible to understand final instruction set to the jury that made it sounds like they needed to find absolute proof to indict... that is a major failure here.

 

I don't pretend to know what happened on that street, but I am pretty darn sure of these things:

 

1. There is some awful silliness in this thread on both sides

2. The prosecutor's office who handled the GJ was incompetent

3. NONE of us actually know what happened on that street

 

Yup. I'm hesitant to believe the verdict and I'm hesitant to say Wilson had malicious intent to kill. Judging from Wilson's testimony, a lot of it seemed true. Very descriptive and hard to make up. But at the same time, he had a lot of time to prepare before he had to provide testimony. When you look at some of the stuff StrangeSox posted from the testimony (getting stronger as he was being shot?), it's also hard to believe he was telling the whole truth.

 

And oh, we need police cams. Both on the patrol car and on the police officer. Then this kind of stuff wouldn't be so gray.

Edited November 25, 2014 by chw42

[Balta1701]

This was handled completely differently from the regular GJ process. It was a sham, and it was done intentionally to give cover for not charging Wilson.

 

If the prosecutors simply thought that there wasn't enough evidence, then they should have had the courage to make the determination themselves explicitly and present their reasoning. Instead, they go this route so that they can place the burden on a GJ that they've rigged to get the outcome they wanted anyway but provide themselves a shield.

 

If they make their own case instead of going with the GJ shield in the first place, there's less rage and less transparent corruption that's driving the rage and reaction in the first place.

This should have been conducted by a special prosecutor appointed by the state who is independent of and unconnected to that department as well. The "prosecutor who works with that police department deciding not to bring charges" is pretty much no different from how it went down anyway.

[Jenksismyhero]

A grand jury presentation is pretty much the exact opposite of transparent. A transparently conducted case is one where a prosecutor takes enough evidence to the grand jury to obtain an indictment and then conducts a public trial in an adversarial process, with the prosecutor arguing the case and the defendant calling witnesses to support that case.

 

This is not a transparent or overboard case at all. This was not conducted in an adversarial sense. The person who talked for 20 minutes about how the evidence in his opinion wasn't consistent and the officer was believable was the person whose job it was to do the prosecution and who also happens to, by all accounts, be close to that police department anyway.

 

This was set up to return no indictment. There's no reason whatsoever to present exculpatory evidence to a grand jury unless you want them to not return an indictment. Their job is to determine whether there is probable cause to bring a case to trial, not to try the case.

 

Transparent in the sense that you're going to get all 70 hours worth of transcripts to pour over. That's not common either. The dude was covering his ass from both sides. Not sure how you guys don't see that.

 

And by the way, you guys misconstrue the purpose of a grand jury. The grand jury is basically a mock-trial to give the prosecutor a feel for how the evidence would shake out in an actual trial. That necessitates in some cases the defendant's own testimony, especially here where only one person involved in the crime is still around. That's not super common, but this isn't a very common case to begin with.

[Jenksismyhero]

This was handled completely differently from the regular GJ process. It was a sham, and it was done intentionally to give cover for not charging Wilson.

 

If the prosecutors simply thought that there wasn't enough evidence, then they should have had the courage to make the determination themselves explicitly and present their reasoning. Instead, they go this route so that they can place the burden on a GJ that they've rigged to get the outcome they wanted anyway but provide themselves a shield.

 

If they make their own case instead of going with the GJ shield in the first place, there's less rage and less transparent corruption that's driving the rage and reaction in the first place.

 

Oh bulls***. This became a national story, with the FBI and Dept of Justice all over him. You cannot compare this to any normal proceeding.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Yup. I'm hesitant to believe the verdict and I'm hesitant to say Wilson had malicious intent to kill. Judging from Wilson's testimony, a lot of it seemed true. Very descriptive and hard to make up. But at the same time, he had a lot of time to prepare before he had to provide testimony. When you look at some of the stuff StrangeSox posted from the testimony (getting stronger as he was being shot?), it's also hard to believe he was telling the whole truth.

 

That's another aspect of this GJ procedure.

 

There wasn't any verdict. This wasn't a full, normal trial. This was a process with a substantially lower burden of proof that almost always returns an indictment unless the prosecution doesn't actually want one. "You can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich" is a classic line about them.

 

But with the way it's being presented, a lot of people will walk away thinking that this was just a fair trial and Wilson didn't get found guilty. I don't know if a jury in a full trial would have found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (or whatever the lower threshold for voluntary manslaughter might be, if that had been the charge instead), but it would have been a lot more open and transparent and, hopefully, legitimate than this was.

[RockRaines]

Maybe they're upset that Mike Illitch keeps spending truckloads of money on the Tigers' bloated roster.

Someone is going to wake up today and really want some crazy bread and will be PISSED>

[StrangeSox]

Oh bulls***. This became a national story, with the FBI and Dept of Justice all over him. You cannot compare this to any normal proceeding.

So every time there's a national story, prosecutors throw their hands in the air, present all available evidence to a grand jury, specifically decline to ask for an indictment and ask questions that paint the suspect as a baby-saving hero?

 

I am doubtful.

[bmags]

Yup. I'm hesitant to believe the verdict and I'm hesitant to say Wilson had malicious intent to kill. Judging from Wilson's testimony, a lot of it seemed true. Very descriptive and hard to make up. But at the same time, he had a lot of time to prepare before he had to provide testimony. When you look at some of the stuff StrangeSox posted from the testimony (getting stronger as he was being shot?), it's also hard to believe he was telling the whole truth.

 

And oh, we need police cams. Both on the patrol car and on the police officer. Then this kind of stuff wouldn't be so gray.

 

Interesting enough this is why I find it to be bulls***. The guy has been prepped to get off since day one. His dept has leaked favorable info from day one.

 

Would have loved to have heard Brown's testimony.

[RockRaines]

Yup. I'm hesitant to believe the verdict and I'm hesitant to say Wilson had malicious intent to kill. Judging from Wilson's testimony, a lot of it seemed true. Very descriptive and hard to make up. But at the same time, he had a lot of time to prepare before he had to provide testimony. When you look at some of the stuff StrangeSox posted from the testimony (getting stronger as he was being shot?), it's also hard to believe he was telling the whole truth.

 

And oh, we need police cams. Both on the patrol car and on the police officer. Then this kind of stuff wouldn't be so gray.

I'm actually currently working with a local company that is working extremely hard to make this commonplace.