Ferguson Riots

[Balta1701]

Oh bulls***. This became a national story, with the FBI and Dept of Justice all over him. You cannot compare this to any normal proceeding.

Which is why a prosecutor with personal connections to the department and a willingness to go on national TV for 20 minutes spelling out why he personally thought the police officer was innocent should not have been the one making the decisions and offering the prosecution in this case.

 

I can genuinely say that there was no one in this case arguing on behalf of the deceased. Given the national pressure and the personal connections you make a solid case for a special prosecutor independent of the department to make sure it is done correctly.

[bmags]

That's another aspect of this GJ procedure.

 

There wasn't any verdict. This wasn't a full, normal trial. This was a process with a substantially lower burden of proof that almost always returns an indictment unless the prosecution doesn't actually want one. "You can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich" is a classic line about them.

 

But with the way it's being presented, a lot of people will walk away thinking that this was just a fair trial and Wilson didn't get found guilty. I don't know if a jury in a full trial would have found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (or whatever the lower threshold for voluntary manslaughter might be, if that had been the charge instead), but it would have been a lot more open and transparent and, hopefully, legitimate than this was.

 

If you want to know the difference between Trayvon and this, it went to trial. They probably overcharged in that case, but it went to trial.

[StrangeSox]

Transparent in the sense that you're going to get all 70 hours worth of transcripts to pour over. That's not common either. The dude was covering his ass from both sides. Not sure how you guys don't see that.

 

And by the way, you guys misconstrue the purpose of a grand jury. The grand jury is basically a mock-trial to give the prosecutor a feel for how the evidence would shake out in an actual trial. That necessitates in some cases the defendant's own testimony, especially here where only one person involved in the crime is still around. That's not super common, but this isn't a very common case to begin with.

 

That's not how they're ever used except in the case of a police officer potentially being charged. In every other type of case, they almost always result in an indictment. They're not run like a full mock trial with the defendant testifying and the prosecution pointing out conflicting evidence. They're usually just the prosecution presenting all of the damning evidence in favor of an indictment and then asking for an indictment, which the GJ promptly gives. That's why they hear a bunch of cases in a short period.

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguso...-darren-wilson/

“If the prosecutor wants an indictment and doesn’t get one, something has gone horribly wrong,” said Andrew D. Leipold, a University of Illinois law professor who has written critically about grand juries. “It just doesn’t happen.”

 

edit: maybe that was their original purpose, but that's not how they're actually used.

Edited November 25, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Milkman delivers]

I'm blown away by a lot of the responses on here.

 

The entire thing was orchestrated so that what has happened would happen. They damn near wanted riots - you have to figure - for the terrible way in which this whole thing was planned out. Of course they should've announced the decision in daylight hours. Of course they shouldn't have made all the big announcements about mobilizing the Nat'l Guard. The militarization of the police is what is being fought in the first place, so lets talk big and scary about how we're militarizing the situation, right!? Let's just further fan the flames. That makes sense.

 

I'm sorry. Should people be rioting and looting? No, of course not. But do I understand the pain, fear, hatred, anger and hopelessness people feel in light of the mockery of justice they were given? Absolutely.

 

I'm also not going to ignore that the people burning buildings are probably just burning buildings. There's truth to that. They don't care one way or another, it's just an opportunity to create free mayhem. I get that. And that's f***ed up. But in my mind, then the DA and the system shouldn't have rigged the outcome in the f***ing first place.

 

Mockery of justice? Rigged the system? Lol. I didn't get what I wanted, so there must've been a conspiracy!

[RockRaines]

Which is why a prosecutor with personal connections to the department and a willingness to go on national TV for 20 minutes spelling out why he personally thought the police officer was innocent should not have been the one making the decisions and offering the prosecution in this case.

 

I can genuinely say that there was no one in this case arguing on behalf of the deceased. Given the national pressure and the personal connections you make a solid case for a special prosecutor independent of the department to make sure it is done correctly.

The DOJ is still involved.

[Balta1701]

The DOJ is still involved.

The DOJ almost certainly should not bring civil rights violations charges against that police officer.

[StrangeSox]

Interesting enough this is why I find it to be bulls***. The guy has been prepped to get off since day one. His dept has leaked favorable info from day one.

 

Would have loved to have heard Brown's testimony.

Do we know when Wilson first gave his accounting of what happened? It'd be mighty convenient if he was able to wait until a bunch of other people gave their version and then craft his story around that.

[RockRaines]

The DOJ almost certainly should not bring civil rights violations charges against that police officer.

I think there needs to be some digging into the police department as a whole regardless on not only what transpired but also their handling of the protests. Obviously people went there to riot, but if it was handled better from the outset it may not have been the firestarter it ended up being.

[Harry Chappas]

The media really made this story to be much larger than it is.

 

Whether Wilson was guilty or not there is reasonable evidence that the shooting is justified. He did not pull over and gun down some innocent kid. Brown was shot in the hand and then turned and ran and then he did not stop and put his hands up like he was asked. After the first altercation in which the kid was shot in the hand and then he ran and the second in which he was shot at he still did not stop and surrender like he was asked.

 

The media made this into yet another opportunity to fill air time. Until some sort of reasonable reporting is done these things will continue to happen as folks love to be on television.

 

Do you want to see the true definition of animals, head to any Walmart Thursday afternoon/evening/night when people will head out to make certain they get as much cheap s*** as they can which will last all of about one year until it needs to be replaces again at next year's Black Friday.

 

Think about Duke Lacrosse and the media.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Harry Chappas

[cabiness42]

This shot could also suggest that he was kneeling down as has been claimed by some of the witnesses as well.

 

At least personally, I can't figure out how I'd be "charging" at someone with my head pointed downwards. They'd step to the side and I wouldn't see where I was charging. I guess it could be that he was getting shot at and ducked his head in response.

 

Except that there is clear evidence that Brown moved 21 feet directly towards Wilson. Brown moving 21 feet towards Wilson, then kneeling down, and then Wilson firing is an entirely absurd chain of events.

[StrangeSox]

I think there needs to be some digging into the police department as a whole regardless on not only what transpired but also their handling of the protests. Obviously people went there to riot, but if it was handled better from the outset it may not have been the firestarter it ended up being.

That's what I've read a few people saying. They might issue a finding (forget the technical term) against the PD itself that can result in reforms of policies and procedures.

[StrangeSox]

Except that there is clear evidence that Brown moved 21 feet directly towards Wilson. Brown moving 21 feet towards Wilson, then kneeling down, and then Wilson firing is an entirely absurd chain of events.

?

[Balta1701]

Except that there is clear evidence that Brown moved 21 feet directly towards Wilson. Brown moving 21 feet towards Wilson, then kneeling down, and then Wilson firing is an entirely absurd chain of events.

Wow, you dragged out a comment from August 18. Impressive.

[bmags]

Do we know when Wilson first gave his accounting of what happened? It'd be mighty convenient if he was able to wait until a bunch of other people gave their version and then craft his story around that.

 

I mean, I'd bet anything it was after the part where they told him that if he said Brown grabbed for his gun he would be fine.

[Balta1701]

The media really made this story to be much larger than it is.

 

Whether Wilson was guilty or not there is reasonable evidence that the shooting is justified. He did not pull over and gun down some innocent kid. Brown was shot in the hand and then turned and ran and then he did not stop and put his hands up like he was asked. After the first altercation in which the kid was shot in the hand and then he ran and the second in which he was shot at he still did not stop and surrender like he was asked.

 

The media made this into yet another opportunity to fill air time. Until some sort of reasonable reporting is done these things will continue to happen as folks love to be on television.

 

Do you want to see the true definition of animals, head to any Walmart Thursday afternoon/evening/night when people will head out to make certain they get as much cheap s*** as they can which will last all of about one year until it needs to be replaces again at next year's Black Friday.

 

Think about Duke Lacrosse and the media.

So, it's worth pointing out again that in realtime, right after the shooting, there is video of witnesses (not witness testimony later which I don't like relying on for either side, realtime video) of people running towards the officer yelling "He had his f***ing hands up". That was people's first reaction after seeing it happen.

[Jenksismyhero]

So every time there's a national story, prosecutors throw their hands in the air, present all available evidence to a grand jury, specifically decline to ask for an indictment and ask questions that paint the suspect as a baby-saving hero?

 

I am doubtful.

 

In speaking with my 2 partners, who have 20 and 25 years of states' attorneys experience, they both said the same thing:

 

I would have not brought charges based on the evidence.

I could have gotten an indictment by putting on one witness (the, "I can indict a bologna sandwich" joke)

If I had the pressure of the national media, FBI and Dept. of Justice, i'm going to probably do exactly what this guy did: take the decision out of my hands, give a grand jury all the information they would get at a trial, and let them decide.

[EvilMonkey]

I don't know how that makes any sense.

 

Either he was on bath salts or Wilson is straight up lying. That's not normal human behavior in any way.

It says ' shooting AT him', not hitting him. I am sure there were many shots that missed, as adrenalin can severely hamper aim.

[Jenksismyhero]

That's not how they're ever used except in the case of a police officer potentially being charged. In every other type of case, they almost always result in an indictment. They're not run like a full mock trial with the defendant testifying and the prosecution pointing out conflicting evidence. They're usually just the prosecution presenting all of the damning evidence in favor of an indictment and then asking for an indictment, which the GJ promptly gives. That's why they hear a bunch of cases in a short period.

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguso...-darren-wilson/

 

 

edit: maybe that was their original purpose, but that's not how they're actually used.

 

In Illinois (and maybe Missouri, I don't know) for big cases they usually don't even bother with a grand jury. They'll usually do a prelim hearing and get the charges ok'd that way.

 

And I still say, the reason he did it this way was the pressure from both sides, and he wanted it out of his hands.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[CrimsonWeltall]

Evidence dump

http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-pr...t/evidence.html

 

Eyewitness testimony confirms that Mike Brown was charging/walking towards/stopped/kneeling/facing away from Wilson with his hands up/down/to the side/in motion/in his wasteband.

[LittleHurt05]

I mean, I'd bet anything it was after the part where they told him that if he said Brown grabbed for his gun he would be fine.

 

You mean, the truth?

[Balta1701]

In Illinois (and maybe Missouri, I don't know) for big cases the yusually don't even both with a grand jury. They'll usually do a prelim hearing and get the charges ok'd that way.

 

And I still say, the reason he did it this way was the pressure from both sides, and he wanted it out of his hands.

Which is why a local prosecutor should not have been the one making that decision.

 

Edit: A version of the Grand Jury proceeding I just read that feels accurate described it as a trial without a prosecutor.

[Harry Chappas]

So, it's worth pointing out again that in realtime, right after the shooting, there is video of witnesses (not witness testimony later which I don't like relying on for either side, realtime video) of people running towards the officer yelling "He had his f***ing hands up". That was people's first reaction after seeing it happen.

 

So he stopped and put his hands up, no, he continued on toward the cop that he already had an altercation with and having been shot continued toward the cop. Having your hands up does not mean you are no longer a threat if you continue to advance toward the officer which you already tried to strong arm. Brown was not standing in the street surrendering as we are to assume "he had his f***ing hands up" is supposed to mean. At no point did Brown stop and do what he was told, after assaulting a cop, getting shot and fleeing.

[Jenksismyhero]

So, it's worth pointing out again that in realtime, right after the shooting, there is video of witnesses (not witness testimony later which I don't like relying on for either side, realtime video) of people running towards the officer yelling "He had his f***ing hands up". That was people's first reaction after seeing it happen.

 

And it's entirely possible that all that started with one witness (the friend) and the rumor basically just spread through the crowd. You've already got people who told the media they witnessed the whole thing, and then apparently changed their statements and admitted they didn't actually see it.

 

Without knowing the person on the tape and whether that's direct knowledge, it's pretty meaningless.

[StrangeSox]

In speaking with my 2 partners, who have 20 and 25 years of states' attorneys experience, they both said the same thing:

 

I would have not brought charges based on the evidence.

I could have gotten an indictment by putting on one witness (the, "I can indict a bologna sandwich" joke)

If I had the pressure of the national media, FBI and Dept. of Justice, i'm going to probably do exactly what this guy did: take the decision out of my hands, give a grand jury all the information they would get at a trial, and let them decide.

 

All bringing it to a GJ did was show that he was running a sham GJ. As your 2 partners said, it would be trivially easy to get an indictment if he wanted one. Running a sham GJ only further undermines the legitimacy of the justice system.

[NorthSideSox72]

Evidence dump

http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-pr...t/evidence.html

 

Eyewitness testimony confirms that Mike Brown was charging/walking towards/stopped/kneeling/facing away from Wilson with his hands up/down/to the side/in motion/in his wasteband.

 

Welcome to eye witness testimony.

 

You mean, the truth?

 

Oh come on now, you don't know that, nor does anyone else.