Ferguson Riots

[StrangeSox]

Ok, but the defense would, so....that information is still getting out there.

 

 

 

Right, he wanted a grand jury to hear all the facts and decide if an indictment should be brought. He wanted it to all be out there. He didn't want to get a sham indictment and bring a meaningless trial if the facts didn't warrant it.

 

 

 

Lol, ok man.

 

I don't know why you're lol'ing. You're admitting above that he's running this grand jury completely differently from how he and everyone else runs every other grand jury. He went on TV last night to whine about the media and how unfair it all was. He clearly didn't think Wilson should be indicted, but he ran a sham grand jury or pseudo-mock-trial if you want to call it that to get this outcome and give himself a shield.

 

Grand Juries aren't meant to hear "all the facts" in a mock-trial with no real adversarial system or the same rules and standards of evidence, witness examination, etc. Turning a grand jury into a mock-trial is what makes it a sham.

[StrangeSox]

Probably should get new judges too. They get to know the police departments pretty well.

I can't imagine why you think personal bias could never be a problem in cases like these.

 

Comparisons to judges don't make sense. Prosecutors have to work with PDs in order to get convictions. That's not what judges do, so the same conflict isn't there.

[StrangeSox]

So to be clear here: In order to prevent an unarmed black teen from being shot after attacking a cop and allegedly rushing after him a second time, we should create an entire new court system to handle the potential charges and trial, right?

No, that's what this "mock-trial" you keep saying he ran was. We already have a normal court system that can handle these things.

[RockRaines]

btw, walking through City Hall, it's interesting to me that half or more of the protesters are young white folks.

If only the people in chicago cared as much about black on black crime.

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't know why you're lol'ing. You're admitting above that he's running this grand jury completely differently from how he and everyone else runs every other grand jury. He went on TV last night to whine about the media and how unfair it all was. He clearly didn't think Wilson should be indicted, but he ran a sham grand jury or pseudo-mock-trial if you want to call it that to get this outcome and give himself a shield.

 

Grand Juries aren't meant to hear "all the facts" in a mock-trial with no real adversarial system or the same rules and standards of evidence, witness examination, etc. Turning a grand jury into a mock-trial is what makes it a sham.

 

I don't see how making it a larger fact finding process is more of a sham than putting on select witnesses in order to get an indictment simply because he could. That's why i'm lol'ing. You're claiming some injustice was done here when the real injustice would be to indict the guy and make him go through a whole trial and waste taxpayer money on sure-loser case.

[Jenksismyhero]

I can't imagine why you think personal bias could never be a problem in cases like these.

 

Comparisons to judges don't make sense. Prosecutors have to work with PDs in order to get convictions. That's not what judges do, so the same conflict isn't there.

 

It can be a problem, but I don't think that's an issue that's going to sway a jury, who is making a decision on the facts that are being presented. At best you've said that he oversold how great Wilson is by showing that he was a baby saver before this shooting. Great, wonderful. Do you really think that one fact swayed the facts here? Do you really think the grand jury decided this case had no probable cause because he seemed like a good guy? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

And this prosecutor works with all of the judges in the courthouse. Probably had tens of hundreds of trials with each. They know each other. They golf on the weekends. Clearly there's a potential for bias there, so we need new judges too.

 

[cabiness42]

Brown didn't have a gun, knew that Wilson had a gun, and charged him for 21 feet. In any other context, this is called "suicide by cop".

[illinilaw08]

It can be a problem, but I don't think that's an issue that's going to sway a jury, who is making a decision on the facts that are being presented. At best you've said that he oversold how great Wilson is by showing that he was a baby saver before this shooting. Great, wonderful. Do you really think that one fact swayed the facts here? Do you really think the grand jury decided this case had no probable cause because he seemed like a good guy? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

And this prosecutor works with all of the judges in the courthouse. Probably had tens of hundreds of trials with each. They know each other. They golf on the weekends. Clearly there's a potential for bias there, so we need new judges too.

 

Prosecutors and judges golfing together on the weekends could be a pretty big ethical issue for both sides. And if them golfing together is swaying the way the judge hears a case, and is creating a bias, we absolutely should get new judges.

 

The problem, as I see it, here is that the prosecutor handled this differently than he would a usual grand jury for any number of reasons. The prosecutor, by handling it that way, made it more likely that he would not get an indictment. With a community that apparently already feels that the police aren't serving their needs, finding that the prosecutor acted in a way that made an indictment less likely is... not going to help things.

 

I'm not taking sides on Wilson's actions here... but if you can't see why the above is potentially problematic, I don't know what to tell you.

[Jenksismyhero]

Prosecutors and judges golfing together on the weekends could be a pretty big ethical issue for both sides. And if them golfing together is swaying the way the judge hears a case, and is creating a bias, we absolutely should get new judges.

 

The problem, as I see it, here is that the prosecutor handled this differently than he would a usual grand jury for any number of reasons. The prosecutor, by handling it that way, made it more likely that he would not get an indictment. With a community that apparently already feels that the police aren't serving their needs, finding that the prosecutor acted in a way that made an indictment less likely is... not going to help things.

 

I'm not taking sides on Wilson's actions here... but if you can't see why the above is potentially problematic, I don't know what to tell you.

 

So in order to appease the masses, the prosecutor should bring charges and force a cop to be charged with murder? That's the best option here?

[NorthSideSox72]

Let's get past this whole "arrested for jaywalking" thing, because everyone knows that is not at all accurate. First of all, there was plenty of reasonable suspicion (which is the bar for addressing someone - not talking arrest yet) that one of the two people (if not both) were involved in a recent crime. Second, as soon as a physical altercation began (no matter what you think happened in said altercation), the jaywalking aspect becomes irrelevant to following actions.

 

Prosecutors and judges golfing together on the weekends could be a pretty big ethical issue for both sides. And if them golfing together is swaying the way the judge hears a case, and is creating a bias, we absolutely should get new judges.

 

The problem, as I see it, here is that the prosecutor handled this differently than he would a usual grand jury for any number of reasons. The prosecutor, by handling it that way, made it more likely that he would not get an indictment. With a community that apparently already feels that the police aren't serving their needs, finding that the prosecutor acted in a way that made an indictment less likely is... not going to help things.

 

I'm not taking sides on Wilson's actions here... but if you can't see why the above is potentially problematic, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Well said, and I agree with all of that. As I've said, I think the prosecuting office failed pretty miserably on this whole effort.

 

[cabiness42]

Well said, and I agree with all of that. As I've said, I think the prosecuting office failed pretty miserably on this whole effort.

 

No, I don't want to live in a world where we expect prosecutors to zealously pursue indictments when a crime was clearly not committed.

[RockRaines]

Prosecutors and judges golfing together on the weekends could be a pretty big ethical issue for both sides. And if them golfing together is swaying the way the judge hears a case, and is creating a bias, we absolutely should get new judges.

 

The problem, as I see it, here is that the prosecutor handled this differently than he would a usual grand jury for any number of reasons. The prosecutor, by handling it that way, made it more likely that he would not get an indictment. With a community that apparently already feels that the police aren't serving their needs, finding that the prosecutor acted in a way that made an indictment less likely is... not going to help things.

 

I'm not taking sides on Wilson's actions here... but if you can't see why the above is potentially problematic, I don't know what to tell you.

So people that constantly work together even at opposite sides of the table should never spend time or *gulp* golf together???

[illinilaw08]

So people that constantly work together even at opposite sides of the table should never spend time or *gulp* golf together???

 

If it's causing the judge to be biased towards the prosecutor he's golfing with in the courtroom, yes, absolutely yes. Judges are supposed to be impartial. The perception of bias in the system is... not good.

 

Also, depending on what they talk about, it could be a pretty serious breach of the ethical rules lawyers practice under (talking about an active case for instance).

[NorthSideSox72]

No, I don't want to live in a world where we expect prosecutors to zealously pursue indictments when a crime was clearly not committed.

 

The bolded has no basis in reality. There is nothing "clear" about this, no matter your opinion. So again, let's all get away from trying to make it seem as if ANY of us know what happened on that street.

 

Besides, that has nothing to do with what Illini said. What he pointed out - and which is based on actual facts - is that the prosecutor's office handled the GJ well outside normal parameters and actions, which is just asking for problems, if not flat out forcing an outcome. As a result, we will never have a truly good picture of whether or not a crime was committed. We may or may not have gotten that from a trial, but it at least there would be a chance.

 

[illinilaw08]

So in order to appease the masses, the prosecutor should bring charges and force a cop to be charged with murder? That's the best option here?

 

No. The problem is that the prosecutor probably isn't using that level of discretion in front of the GJ if it isn't Darren Wilson, police officer, who has been charged.

 

If this particular prosecutor exhibits this level of care and makes sure to present both sides of the argument every time he's in front of the GJ, or everytime he has a new case on his desk, then there isn't a problem. But I guarantee that doesn't happen.

[cabiness42]

The bolded has no basis in reality. There is nothing "clear" about this, no matter your opinion. So again, let's all get away from trying to make it seem as if ANY of us know what happened on that street.

 

Besides, that has nothing to do with what Illini said. What he pointed out - and which is based on actual facts - is that the prosecutor's office handled the GJ well outside normal parameters and actions, which is just asking for problems, if not flat out forcing an outcome. As a result, we will never have a truly good picture of whether or not a crime was committed. We may or may not have gotten that from a trial, but it at least there would be a chance.

 

The forensics, backed up by some of the witnesses, is very clear that Brown charged Wilson for 20+ feet. In 99.999% of cases with such evidence, the officer is cleared and the case never even goes to a grand jury.

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

The forensics, backed up by some of the witnesses, is very clear that Brown charged Wilson for 20+ feet.

 

Can you be more specific about what you're referring to? Obviously the forensics showed that Brown was shot in the front, but how did they show he was charging, and for 20+ feet?

[StrangeSox]

I don't see how making it a larger fact finding process is more of a sham than putting on select witnesses in order to get an indictment simply because he could. That's why i'm lol'ing. You're claiming some injustice was done here when the real injustice would be to indict the guy and make him go through a whole trial and waste taxpayer money on sure-loser case.

I'm saying that putting it through a completely atypical "fact finding" grand jury is a sham. If the prosecutor didn't think it merited charges, he should have explained why himself instead of holding a sham GJ to, in your words, cover his ass.

 

If you're so concerned about "taxpayer money" in the criminal justice system, you shouldn't be happy with an unnecessary sham GJ.

[StrangeSox]

So in order to appease the masses, the prosecutor should bring charges and force a cop to be charged with murder? That's the best option here?

Or, as others have asked for since the start, bring in an outside DA to evaluate and pursue the case.

[cabiness42]

Can you be more specific about what you're referring to? Obviously the forensics showed that Brown was shot in the front, but how did they show he was charging, and for 20+ feet?

 

Blood trail shows Brown's farthest position away from Wilson being 20+ feet away from where he fell, spacing of blood trail shows speed. A good portion of the witness accounts back up the evidence.

[StrangeSox]

Blood trail shows Brown's farthest position away from Wilson being 20+ feet away from where he fell, spacing of blood trail shows speed. A good portion of the witness accounts back up the evidence.

source?

[cabiness42]

source?

 

CNN has been reading it from the official grand jury report all morning.

[Jenksismyhero]

No. The problem is that the prosecutor probably isn't using that level of discretion in front of the GJ if it isn't Darren Wilson, police officer, who has been charged.

 

If this particular prosecutor exhibits this level of care and makes sure to present both sides of the argument every time he's in front of the GJ, or everytime he has a new case on his desk, then there isn't a problem. But I guarantee that doesn't happen.

 

But why can't this be handled a little more delicately given the extreme pressure he's under on both sides? As I said before, he's got a city that rioted causing a national story. He's got the FBI and DoJ up his ass. I'm sure the state and White House have called wanting to be kept in the loop about things. His choices were to just get an indictment and take the guy to trial on relatively weak evidence, or undergo a more exhaustive grand jury proceeding to really see if there was a potential for a case here. And frankly i'm sure the drawn out grand jury proceeding was done on purpose to try and get everyone to calm down.

 

I really don't see a problem with the fact that he did this a little differently. It's not exactly unheard of, it's just not common.

[StrangeSox]

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7280989/darren-wilson-evidence

When Darren Wilson came before the grand jury, it had been five weeks since his initial interview with a St. Louis County police investigator. Wilson’s grand-jury testimony (which stretched for four hours) included plenty of details he hadn’t mentioned in the first interview — such as Wilson telling Brown to "get the f*** back" instead of "stop, get back," or saying it looked like Brown got even stronger once Wilson started shooting: "bulking up to run through [Wilson's] shots."

 

When an assistant prosecutor asked Wilson if there might be things he told the grand jury now that he didn’t say initially, Wilson said it was because he remembered the traumatic encounter with Brown better, weeks later, than he did the day after Brown’s death

 

Is that really how eyewitness testimony works? No. But for the grand jurors, it was just another shifting set of facts to keep track of.

[StrangeSox]

Ezra Klein: Officer Darren Wilson's story is unbelievable. Literally.