Ferguson Riots

[RockRaines]

Oh, so she broke the law and got tickets like everyone else does. How terrible!

 

I'd agree with a more general "municipalities profit from people" argument. I've been saying that for years.

Municipalities profit from all people, most importantly the ones who actually PAY the tickets.

[cabiness42]

I don't agree. The officer doesn't know if Brown is tricking him by saying he is surrendering and is just waiting until he is close enough to attack him again. When you give up you stop and possibly kneel or sit down not continue at the officer.

 

Either way even if it was his intention to give up, the officer had every right to feel threatened when a person who just attacked him was coming toward him again.

 

That is a fact that can't be explained away regardless of what else you believe. Brown knows that he has a gun pointed at him. He chooses to move directly towards the officer with the gun. There is no outcome that can be reasonably expected other than he's going to be shot. The officer has 100% right to defend himself, and once Brown starts coming directly at him it becomes self-defense.

 

There are dozens of cases all over the country where officers had far less clear cases of self-defense than this one, but people can't let this one go. People had their minds made up and are too prideful and stubborn to admit they were wrong. All it takes is one influential leader to come out and say, "You know what, I looked at the evidence, and I now believe that the officer was justified in self-defense, so we need to let this case pass but continue to focus on the larger issue of reducing the number of times we end up in this situation." It could do wonders for the nation.

[illinilaw08]

That is a fact that can't be explained away regardless of what else you believe. Brown knows that he has a gun pointed at him. He chooses to move directly towards the officer with the gun. There is no outcome that can be reasonably expected other than he's going to be shot. The officer has 100% right to defend himself, and once Brown starts coming directly at him it becomes self-defense.

There are dozens of cases all over the country where officers had far less clear cases of self-defense than this one, but people can't let this one go. People had their minds made up and are too prideful and stubborn to admit they were wrong. All it takes is one influential leader to come out and say, "You know what, I looked at the evidence, and I now believe that the officer was justified in self-defense, so we need to let this case pass but continue to focus on the larger issue of reducing the number of times we end up in this situation." It could do wonders for the nation.

 

I don't think you can make it as black and white as that. Walking toward an officer is different than sprinting toward an officer. Having your hands up walking slowly toward the officer might not necessitate an immediate lethal response. The circumstances leading up to the confrontation matter as well - as do exigent circumstances like noise.

 

I don't envy police officers for having to make snap decisions in the heat of the moment. And, again, I'm not opining on the Wilson case here. I'm merely saying that if a police office has a gun pointed at you, there are definite instances where moving toward the officer should not result in an immediate lethal response.

 

 

[southsideirish71]

Going to link this Radley Balko (libertarian, long-time scholar at Cato, has written about police militarization and abuse for years) article about how municipalities and police forces in St. Louis County profit from the poor and particularly black poor again, because it should really give everyone an understanding of where this distrust comes from. These people are living in a Kafka novel.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-wat...s-from-poverty/

 

call attorneys in the St. Louis area have come to call “poverty violations” — driving with a suspended license, expired plates, expired registration and a failure to provide proof of insurance.

 

If you get pulled over and your credentials get run and they come up suspended, a warrant, or not valid for any reason it gets dealt with the same way no matter what color you are. Its not like they said, well Jimmy we see a warrant for your arrest and you have a suspended license but I see you went to Sandburg, live in Orland, and are white so have a nice day and don't do it again. The same with insurance. You need valid insurance to drive a car. If you don't have a valid license, have a warrant or no insurance then don't drive a car. That's not a poverty violation. Driving is a privilege not a right. The same with expired plates and registration.

 

 

[cabiness42]

I don't think you can make it as black and white as that. Walking toward an officer is different than sprinting toward an officer. Having your hands up walking slowly toward the officer might not necessitate an immediate lethal response. The circumstances leading up to the confrontation matter as well - as do exigent circumstances like noise.

 

I don't envy police officers for having to make snap decisions in the heat of the moment. And, again, I'm not opining on the Wilson case here. I'm merely saying that if a police office has a gun pointed at you, there are definite instances where moving toward the officer should not result in an immediate lethal response.

 

It wasn't immediate. Brown moved 20+ feet before falling. Wilson had a pretty clear reason to believe he was in serious danger if he didn't shoot.

[illinilaw08]

If you get pulled over and your credentials get run and they come up suspended, a warrant, or not valid for any reason it gets dealt with the same way no matter what color you are. Its not like they said, well Jimmy we see a warrant for your arrest and you have a suspended license but I see you went to Sandburg, live in Orland, and are white so have a nice day and don't do it again. The same with insurance. You need valid insurance to drive a car. If you don't have a valid license, have a warrant or no insurance then don't drive a car. That's not a poverty violation. Driving is a privilege not a right. The same with expired plates and registration.

 

From a policy standpoint, as a society, we are really dependent on cars to get around. I've lived in Chicago, and I have lived in some cities with terrible public transportation, and in those cities having a car is, literally, a necessity if you want to work.

 

I represented a guy in a bankruptcy who worked at the McDonald's by his apartment. The apartment was one of the few he could afford. He didn't have a car. The apartment wasn't on, or near, a bus line. And McDonald's was the only business close enough for him to walk to.

 

The point here is that minor traffic offenses, while inconvenient for everyone, have a much greater impact on the working poor - especially in cities where there aren't reasonable alternative transportation options...

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Oh, so she broke the law and got tickets like everyone else does. How terrible!

 

I'd agree with a more general "municipalities profit from people" argument. I've been saying that for years.

So did you bother to read the whole article or just enough to come up with a reason to ignore it?

[Jenksismyhero]

So did you bother to read the whole article or just enough to come up with a reason to ignore it?

 

No I read it. It's not a shock to me that in poor areas with more crime there are more cops policing the area, making more arrests, handing out tickets, etc. That's how police police. You know the best way to curb that cycle? Get people in the community to stop committing crimes, necessitating cops. You know what's not the answer? Blaming cops for being racist.

[southsideirish71]

From a policy standpoint, as a society, we are really dependent on cars to get around. I've lived in Chicago, and I have lived in some cities with terrible public transportation, and in those cities having a car is, literally, a necessity if you want to work.

 

I represented a guy in a bankruptcy who worked at the McDonald's by his apartment. The apartment was one of the few he could afford. He didn't have a car. The apartment wasn't on, or near, a bus line. And McDonald's was the only business close enough for him to walk to.

 

The point here is that minor traffic offenses, while inconvenient for everyone, have a much greater impact on the working poor - especially in cities where there aren't reasonable alternative transportation options...

 

Its a real simple formula. If your car is that important to you then make sure your license is taken care of, that your permits and registrations are up to date, and that you have liability insurance. If you don't have any of that then don't drive. If your car is an important part of your life then take care of that privilege. Drive the speed limit or under. Obey all of the traffic laws. If you do that for the most part you wont run into many problems. People drive like its a video game at times. And I understand that more affluent people can absorb the fines and impact than the poor. But its not like the police are saying well I see that car going 1 under the speed limit, lets make up a speeding charge and pull him over.

[StrangeSox]

If you get pulled over and your credentials get run and they come up suspended, a warrant, or not valid for any reason it gets dealt with the same way no matter what color you are. Its not like they said, well Jimmy we see a warrant for your arrest and you have a suspended license but I see you went to Sandburg, live in Orland, and are white so have a nice day and don't do it again. The same with insurance. You need valid insurance to drive a car. If you don't have a valid license, have a warrant or no insurance then don't drive a car. That's not a poverty violation. Driving is a privilege not a right. The same with expired plates and registration.

Many of these things are made worse by poverty and then quickly compound, as the article points out. Getting pulled over because you can't afford to fix a broken tail light or a cracked windshield but you still need the car to drive to work is a "poverty violation."

 

There's also the documented statistical difference in how frequently black people are pulled over for minor infractions versus white people. This also applies to being too poor to be in an area regardless of color, as that happened to my wife and I once.

[StrangeSox]

It wasn't immediate. Brown moved 20+ feet before falling. Wilson had a pretty clear reason to believe he was in serious danger if he didn't shoot.

are you still basing this entirely off of a question asked by the grand juror or is there something more concrete than that in the document dump?

[RockRaines]

Many of these things are made worse by poverty and then quickly compound, as the article points out. Getting pulled over because you can't afford to fix a broken tail light or a cracked windshield but you still need the car to drive to work is a "poverty violation."

 

There's also the documented statistical difference in how frequently black people are pulled over for minor infractions versus white people. This also applies to being too poor to be in an area regardless of color, as that happened to my wife and I once.

Is that documented evidence only for that area? Do they also count how many white people vs black people actually have committed minor infractions overall regardless of arrest?

[cabiness42]

are you still basing this entirely off of a question asked by the grand juror or is there something more concrete than that in the document dump?

 

Combination of the forensic evidence and the testimony of Wilson plus several others.

 

EDIT: On top of that, the forensics do confirm that the fatal shot was fired from 8-12 feet away, so Brown was 1-2 strides away from getting his hands on Wilson.

Edited November 26, 2014 by HickoryHuskers

[StrangeSox]

No I read it. It's not a shock to me that in poor areas with more crime there are more cops policing the area, making more arrests, handing out tickets, etc. That's how police police. You know the best way to curb that cycle? Get people in the community to stop committing crimes, necessitating cops. You know what's not the answer? Blaming cops for being racist.

I am skeptical that you read a 14,000 word article in the 8 minutes it took you to respond.

 

Even if you did eventually finish it, it seems pretty clear you didn't go in with an open mind to try to understand a different point of view. Oh well.

[StrangeSox]

Combination of the forensic evidence and the testimony of Wilson plus several others.

What forensic evidence? Where can we see the actual evidence or a review of that evidence by an expert witness and not just a reference to it in a GJ question?

 

Why are you privileging Wilson and the "several others'" (no firm number? how are you so sure then?) testimony above other conflicting testimony?

[StrangeSox]

Is that documented evidence only for that area?

 

Possibly, but I'm speaking as a trend nationally.

 

Do they also count how many white people vs black people actually have committed minor infractions overall regardless of arrest?

Yes. For example, black people are actually less likely than white people to use drugs but face prosecution and incarceration for drug use at much higher levels.

[cabiness42]

What forensic evidence? Where can we see the actual evidence or a review of that evidence by an expert witness and not just a reference to it in a GJ question?

 

Why are you privileging Wilson and the "several others'" (no firm number? how are you so sure then?) testimony above other conflicting testimony?

 

I haven't had time to read everything. My uncle, a retired forensic chemist, has read a very good chunk of it, and he is certain that Brown had been moving forward for at least 20 feet when shot and was shot from a range of 8-12 feet.

 

Wilson and others testimony is given higher weight because it isn't at all in conflict with the forensic evidence. That's pretty standard in any case.

[StrangeSox]

I'm not taking the second-hand word of an anonymous retired forensic chemist as the final word on how close Brown was when he was shot or if he had been moving.

[southsideirish71]

Many of these things are made worse by poverty and then quickly compound, as the article points out. Getting pulled over because you can't afford to fix a broken tail light or a cracked windshield but you still need the car to drive to work is a "poverty violation."

 

There's also the documented statistical difference in how frequently black people are pulled over for minor infractions versus white people. This also applies to being too poor to be in an area regardless of color, as that happened to my wife and I once.

 

I know this probably more than a lot of you. You know as a person who grew up poor I have a solution. If your car has a problem fix it. That doesn't always mean you run up to the CarX for every little thing. A broken tail light, burnt out light is simple to fix and usually will get thrown out in court if you show you remediated the issue. When I bought my first car I spent an extra 15 bucks and picked up the maintenance book for my car on repairs. I used to fix my car's issues by either going up to a local parts store and picking up the parts. Or for bigger parts going to the junk yard in Blue Island. So what happens when the poor persons car gets bad brakes. I mean thats a lot of cost and the guy still needs to get the work. Is it okay for him to race down the road without brakes.

[cabiness42]

I'm not taking the second-hand word of an anonymous retired forensic chemist as the final word on how close Brown was when he was shot or if he had been moving.

 

You're not taking anybody's word other than your own, so why the f*** are you even still here?

[StrangeSox]

You're not taking anybody's word other than your own, so why the f*** are you even still here?

I've asked you repeatedly for simple citations to what you keep claiming as damn near 100% guarantees of Wilson's justifications and you just keep saying "forensic evidence" and "witness testimony."

[ptatc]

What forensic evidence? Where can we see the actual evidence or a review of that evidence by an expert witness and not just a reference to it in a GJ question?

 

Why are you privileging Wilson and the "several others'" (no firm number? how are you so sure then?) testimony above other conflicting testimony?

All of the witnesses, that I've read, agree that he was moving toward the officer. Some say he was "charging" others say he was waling with his hands up. But all agree he was moving toward him.

[cabiness42]

I've asked you repeatedly for simple citations to what you keep claiming as damn near 100% guarantees of Wilson's justifications and you just keep saying "forensic evidence" and "witness testimony."

 

The citation is the big-ass document that the county released. I don't have time to dig through it and find it for you. Everybody else has accepted the word of those who have actually read it that it's in there, if that isn't good enough for you, then read it yourself.

[StrangeSox]

All of the witnesses, that I've read, agree that he was moving toward the officer. Some say he was "charging" others say he was waling with his hands up. But all agree he was moving toward him.

Right, I've said that several witnesses said he was either walking or staggering forward with his arms up or out.

 

That's a pretty important distinction from Wilson's claim that he was charging at him head-first and seemed to be "bulking up" with every bullet.

[StrangeSox]

The citation is the big-ass document that the county released. I don't have time to dig through it and find it for you. Everybody else has accepted the word of those who have actually read it that it's in there, if that isn't good enough for you, then read it yourself.

So you don't actually have any citations, haven't bothered to read it yourself, but you know with absolute certainty that no charges should have been brought, Brown charged Wilson from at least 21 feet away, and "everybody else" accepts these claims.

 

Ok, buddy.