Ferguson Riots

[cabiness42]

So you don't actually have any citations, haven't bothered to read it yourself, but you know with absolute certainty that no charges should have been brought, Brown charged Wilson from at least 21 feet away, and "everybody else" accepts these claims.

 

Ok, buddy.

 

So you don't actually have any citations, haven't bothered to read it yourself, but you know with absolute certainty that charges should have been brought.

 

At least I have listened to the words of dozens of people who HAVE read it and have no doubt what it says.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

So you don't actually have any citations, haven't bothered to read it yourself, but you know with absolute certainty that charges should have been brought.

 

At least I have listened to the words of dozens of people who HAVE read it and have no doubt what it says.

 

That's funny. When you first started saying with absolute certainty that Brown charged Wilson from 21 feet way, I was the one who went to the trouble of tracking down a CNN clip of what you were talking about and going into the GJ testimony that was referenced. I don't think you ever commented on that post.

 

Who are these "dozens of people" who have read all of the evidence released and have "no doubt" that it says Michael Brown charged Darren Wilson from 21+ feet away?

 

edit: the evidence that I have seen seems to pretty easily clear the "probable cause" hurdle for an indictment, yes. I don't know if it would clear a "beyond a reasonable doubt" hurdle in a full trial, but that's not the burden at this level. If there is actual, concrete evidence that Brown charged Wilson, I would change my opinion. Just saying "it's somewhere in those hundreds of pages and dozens of documents" isn't going to change anyone's minds, though.

Edited November 26, 2014 by StrangeSox

[cabiness42]

That's funny. When you first started saying with absolute certainty that Brown charged Wilson from 21 feet way, I was the one who went to the trouble of tracking down a CNN clip of what you were talking about and going into the GJ testimony that was referenced. I don't think you ever commented on that post.

 

Who are these "dozens of people" who have read all of the evidence released and have "no doubt" that it says Michael Brown charged Darren Wilson from 21+ feet away?

 

edit: the evidence that I have seen seems to pretty easily clear the "probable cause" hurdle for an indictment, yes. If there is actual, concrete evidence that Brown charged Wilson, I would change my opinion. Just saying "it's somewhere in those hundreds of pages and dozens of documents" isn't going to change anyone's minds, though.

 

If I thought it would make a difference, I'd take the time over the weekend to find it, but you probably already have a way to explain away any evidence you are presented with. You've got your mind made up and nothing will change it, and that's exactly why things aren't getting any better in this country. Nobody is willing to give an inch from either side.

[StrangeSox]

Could you even bother to cite those "dozens of people" who all agree without a doubt that Brown charged Wilson? Do you know what evidence they're actually basing that conclusion on and why you should trust their evaluation?

[RockRaines]

Possibly, but I'm speaking as a trend nationally.

 

 

Yes. For example, black people are actually less likely than white people to use drugs but face prosecution and incarceration for drug use at much higher levels.

Based on what?

[cabiness42]

Could you even bother to cite those "dozens of people" who all agree without a doubt that Brown charged Wilson? Do you know what evidence they're actually basing that conclusion on and why you should trust their evaluation?

 

Dozens of people = analysts on CNN, Fox News, ABC News, newspapers, websites who have all directly read all/most of the grand jury documents and agree that it's clear from the documents that Brown had moved and was still moving towards Wilson when the fatal shot was fired. I didn't write down all the names or the links. Even some of the ones who think Wilson should have been indicted have agreed to that particular fact, which is quite unbelievable to me but whatever.

[StrangeSox]

Based on what?

Research

 

http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/stud...gs-than-blacks/

[StrangeSox]

Dozens of people = analysts on CNN, Fox News, ABC News, newspapers, websites who have all directly read all/most of the grand jury documents and agree that it's clear from the documents that Brown had moved and was still moving towards Wilson when the fatal shot was fired. I didn't write down all the names or the links. Even some of the ones who think Wilson should have been indicted have agreed to that particular fact, which is quite unbelievable to me but whatever.

 

You're shifting your claim here. I wouldn't be pressing so hard on that simple statement and have in fact acknowledged that multiple times in this thread. But you have made a much stronger statement that Brown was unequivocally charging at Wilson and did so for at least 21 feet and that forensic evidence rules out testimony that he was surrendering. Those are two very different claims.

[RockRaines]

Research

 

http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/stud...gs-than-blacks/

LOL, nothing like a 4% difference when surveying less than 80k kids who volunteered responses. The category "drugs" is comical. Native Americans apparently get the most favorable treatment from police. Horribly conducted research is what you should have posted.

[Jenksismyhero]

Possibly, but I'm speaking as a trend nationally.

 

 

Yes. For example, black people are actually less likely than white people to use drugs but face prosecution and incarceration for drug use at much higher levels.

 

And as I've pointed out before, blacks are going to be pulled over more than whites simply because of where they live, so of course those arrest numbers are going to be different.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

I am skeptical that you read a 14,000 word article in the 8 minutes it took you to respond.

 

Even if you did eventually finish it, it seems pretty clear you didn't go in with an open mind to try to understand a different point of view. Oh well.

 

I got to the "poor violations" part and felt compelled to respond immediately.

 

[cabiness42]

You're shifting your claim here. I wouldn't be pressing so hard on that simple statement and have in fact acknowledged that multiple times in this thread. But you have made a much stronger statement that Brown was unequivocally charging at Wilson and did so for at least 21 feet and that forensic evidence rules out testimony that he was surrendering. Those are two very different claims.

 

Not every single person that spoke to the issue was so specific to mention the distance of 20+ feet, but some did. The distance of 20+ feet doesn't really matter in the sense that there isn't really a cutoff for a specific distance Brown had to be moving towards Wilson before self-defense becomes justifiable. It's not like self-defense is less justifiable if he had only moved 10 feet, given that he was within 12 feet when the fatal shot was fired.

 

Given the previous confrontation, once Brown turns around and takes his first few steps directly at Wilson, Wilson has gained the right to self-defense. Brown had the option to either keep running away or to stop and get down on the ground, yet he chose the action that forced Wilson to defend himself.

[RockRaines]

I dont think anyone has grounds of accusing folks of not having an open mind on the subject at this point in the thread.

[StrangeSox]

Not every single person that spoke to the issue was so specific to mention the distance of 20+ feet, but some did. The distance of 20+ feet doesn't really matter in the sense that there isn't really a cutoff for a specific distance Brown had to be moving towards Wilson before self-defense becomes justifiable. It's not like self-defense is less justifiable if he had only moved 10 feet, given that he was within 12 feet when the fatal shot was fired.

 

I don't recall the previous autopsy reports and discussions about them saying anything about how far away the fatal shot was. I haven't seen anything to that effect yet other than Wilson's testimony. Is there something shown by the physical evidence that supports that?

 

Given the previous confrontation, once Brown turns around and takes his first few steps directly at Wilson, Wilson has gained the right to self-defense. Brown had the option to either keep running away or to stop and get down on the ground, yet he chose the action that forced Wilson to defend himself.

 

I don't think self defense is justified if Brown is staggering a couple of steps forward with his hands up/out. If he's charging at him, that's a different story.

[StrangeSox]

LOL, nothing like a 4% difference when surveying less than 80k kids who volunteered responses. The category "drugs" is comical. Native Americans apparently get the most favorable treatment from police. Horribly conducted research is what you should have posted.

80k is actually a huge sample size. I'm glad you've been able to determine that this research was "horribly conducted" though.

 

Regardless, this isn't the only study that has found drug usage rates for black people to be equal or lower than white people, and incarceration rates are undeniably hugely different.

[cabiness42]

I don't recall the previous autopsy reports and discussions about them saying anything about how far away the fatal shot was. I haven't seen anything to that effect yet other than Wilson's testimony. Is there something shown by the physical evidence that supports that?

 

 

 

I don't think self defense is justified if Brown is staggering a couple of steps forward with his hands up/out. If he's charging at him, that's a different story.

 

I've seen a couple references on TV to the distance from the fatal blow. Forensically, it's a very easy thing to nail down at close range.

 

The actual word "charging" was not used by all of the witnesses, but it was much more than a couple steps. There was enough forward movement for there to be multiple rounds of shots fired.

[ptatc]

Right, I've said that several witnesses said he was either walking or staggering forward with his arms up or out.

 

That's a pretty important distinction from Wilson's claim that he was charging at him head-first and seemed to be "bulking up" with every bullet.

And I've said repeatedly, that it doesn't matter. Any movement toward a person who you just assaulted should be considered threatening. The officer had every right to feel threatened by a person who had just assaulted him.

[StrangeSox]

And as I've pointed out before, blacks are going to be pulled over more than whites simply because of where they live, so of course those arrest numbers are going to be different.

Do you think the common perception of being pulled over for a "DWB" or "Driving While Black" has no basis in reality?

[StrangeSox]

I've seen a couple references on TV to the distance from the fatal blow. Forensically, it's a very easy thing to nail down at close range.

 

The actual word "charging" was not used by all of the witnesses, but it was much more than a couple steps. There was enough forward movement for there to be multiple rounds of shots fired.

Was that audio recording with the shots in the background ever validated? If so, the shots all happened in 2-3 seconds. If you're staggering or walking, that's only a few steps. At say a 3' pace at the most for a walk, that's 9' or so.

[StrangeSox]

And I've said repeatedly, that it doesn't matter. Any movement toward a person who you just assaulted should be considered threatening. The officer had every right to feel threatened by a person who had just assaulted him.

Walking towards somebody with your hands up in a classic surrender mode should not be considered so threatening as to justify killing someone, but we can agree to disagree on that one.

Edited November 26, 2014 by StrangeSox

[ptatc]

Do you think the common perception of being pulled over for a "DWB" or "Driving While Black" has no basis in reality?

Don't try to deflect the discussion. I haven't said a thing about that and really don't care to discuss it. I was discussing this case and the facts of this case. That is the point of this discussion.

[cabiness42]

Was that audio recording with the shots in the background ever validated? If so, the shots all happened in 2-3 seconds. If you're staggering or walking, that's only a few steps. At say a 3' pace at the most for a walk, that's 9' or so.

 

I haven't seen anything indicating the audio recording was validated. Even if he only moved 9 feet, that's about half the distance between himself and Wilson.

[StrangeSox]

Don't try to deflect the discussion. I haven't said a thing about that and really don't care to discuss it. I was discussing this case and the facts of this case. That is the point of this discussion.

I quoted jenks in that post on a side-discussion, I responded to you in a separate post?

[StrangeSox]

I haven't seen anything indicating the audio recording was validated. Even if he only moved 9 feet, that's about half the distance between himself and Wilson.

Assuming for argument that the distance was only 20 feet, he would have had to start firing on Brown much sooner than the full 9 feet of movement.

[Jenksismyhero]

Do you think the common perception of being pulled over for a "DWB" or "Driving While Black" has no basis in reality?

 

Oh I'm sure it happens, but not to any great degree in 2014. And I'd bet that black cops do it just as much as white cops.