Ferguson Riots

[Y2HH]

Yeah, i'm telling you, the universal rule is "don't needlessly put yourself in danger."

 

That's the universal rule of life, too.

 

Most police don't needlessly put themselves in danger, or mean to put themselves in danger when they do. Just so happens this is a side effect of that job.

 

The difference here is simple, you're all assuming that's exactly what police try to do -- needlessly put themselves in danger.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

You make a lot of assumption when you discuss things.

 

How do you know they didn't mean to pull up 100 yards away, when they suddenly realized, holy crap, the guy we're looking for is right there in front of us?!

 

Well, we know they lied, but they said they saw him sitting in the gazebo (with other people around, but there weren't). The reports were that he was in the gazebo. The whole park isn't all that big. 100 yards away would be across the street.

 

But, most damning of all, they had to drive out of the parking lot and around a bunch of trees and bollards in order to park right next to the kid. I posted an overhead shot of the area a couple of pages back.

 

Do you think police have some sort of built in GPS where they know the exact coordinates of the people they're looking for when they ride up?

I think if you don't know where the guy you think has a gun is, the dumbest move you can make is to blindly charge into his last known area.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, with all your training, you'd know.

While I doubt there is a specific guideline on this, it is certainly true that from the training (and experience) I had, there is no good reason to address the suspect in the way they did. Driving up within a few feet like that was, in my mind, poor tactics.

 

That said, I think there is a lack of understanding in this coversation (here and everywhere) of the difference between bad tactics resulting in tragedy, and crime resulting in tragedy. The New York situation is a perfect illustration. The guy was put in a choke hold (which is a desperation move and should be avoided), and not let out of it (terrible idea), and died. Was it murder? Absolutely not. Should the cop lose his job? I'd say so. What happens in between is the grey area - was it criminal to any extent? Maybe involuntary manslaughter? Not sure, that's hard to decide.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

You make a lot of assumption when you discuss things.

 

How do you know they didn't mean to pull up 100 yards away, when they suddenly realized, holy crap, the guy we're looking for is right there in front of us?! Do you think police have some sort of built in GPS where they know the exact coordinates of the people they're looking for when they ride up?

 

If they saw the person ahead in the gazebo with a gun, then they're even dumber than we're claiming. Because then they knew they'd be parking their vehicle within feet of an armed individual. Literally putting their own lives at risk for no good reason.

[Y2HH]

I have witnessed actual tactical response training for unquestionably deadly situations before. You don't blindly rush into things.

 

If it was training, it wasn't unquestionably deadly, since it wasn't deadly at all...as it was training.

[StrangeSox]

That's the universal rule of life, too.

 

Most police don't needlessly put themselves in danger, or mean to put themselves in danger when they do. Just so happens this is a side effect of that job.

 

The difference here is simple, you're all assuming that's exactly what police try to do -- needlessly put themselves in danger.

I've linked to the DOJ report that found that the Cleveland PD, which is the PD in question in the Tamir shooting, unquestionably does this.

 

We also see it with the huge increase of SWAT raids and the general militarization of the police. That's the mindset that, while absolutely a minority, too many police have.

[Y2HH]

While I doubt there is a specific guideline on this, it is certainly true that from the training (and experience) I had, there is no good reason to address the suspect in the way they did. Driving up within a few feet like that was, in my mind, poor tactics.

 

That said, I think there is a lack of understanding in this coversation (here and everywhere) of the difference between bad tactics resulting in tragedy, and crime resulting in tragedy. The New York situation is a perfect illustration. The guy was put in a choke hold (which is a desperation move and should be avoided), and not let out of it (terrible idea), and died. Was it murder? Absolutely not. Should the cop lose his job? I'd say so. What happens in between is the grey area - was it criminal to any extent? Maybe involuntary manslaughter? Not sure, that's hard to decide.

 

I don't disagree with any of this.

[Jenksismyhero]

We are talking about multiple different things here. Which video, post it.

 

? We're mainly talking about this Cleveland case. Go back several pages and you can watch the video. Good to know we're arguing when you don't even know the facts of what happened. You're assuming things.

 

Here's the video:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2...cer_shot_1.html

Edited December 5, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

If it was training, it wasn't unquestionably deadly, since it wasn't deadly at all...as it was training.

The training was for responding to an event with shooters who are unquestionably looking to kill anyone in their path, not that the training itself was deadly. My point is that people aren't trained to act that recklessly when there is zero doubt of deadly intent. If officer safety is your number one priority, then you shouldn't be trying to excuse tactics that make the situation substantially more dangerous for themselves and others.

[Y2HH]

? We're mainly talking about this Cleveland case. Go back several pages and you can watch the video. Good to know we're arguing when you don't even know the facts of what happened. You're assuming things.

 

Here's the video:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2...cer_shot_1.html

 

Yes, I've seen that video, but watched it again, it just doesn't tell me much and causes the viewer to do nothing but speculate, which is kind of my point. Without audio, or more information on the situation, I have no idea why they pulled up so close. But me speculating as to why doesn't really solve anything.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes, I've seen that video, but watched it again, it just doesn't tell me much and causes the viewer to do nothing but speculate, which is kind of my point. Without audio, or more information on the situation, I have no idea why they pulled up so close. But me speculating as to why doesn't really solve anything.

 

Then you're being willfully ignorant. At the very least this video proves that the cops are liars about what they did, i.e., saying they asked him three times to put the gun down and he refused and/or went for the gun.

 

Here's what happened, and it's obvious - they pulled up, the kid stands up, the cop sees the gun, hops out of his car, fires, runs back to the other side of the car to hide. That's all plainly visible. No audio doesn't matter, it's impossible that they asked him to drop the weapon or put up his hands. He's firing essentially as the door is opening. There was no time to respond to the "order," if one was ever given.

 

[Y2HH]

Then you're being willfully ignorant. At the very least this video proves that the cops are liars about what they did, i.e., saying they asked him three times to put the gun down and he refused and/or went for the gun.

 

Here's what happened, and it's obvious - they pulled up, the kid stands up, the cop sees the gun, hops out of his car, fires, runs back to the other side of the car to hide. That's all plainly visible. No audio doesn't matter, it's impossible that they asked him to drop the weapon or put up his hands. He's firing essentially as the door is opening. There was no time to respond to the "order," if one was ever given.

 

Did they first pull up in that parking lot before spinning around and pulling up close? That's a long video, and at one point there is a car in that parking lot.

[StrangeSox]

Then you're being willfully ignorant. At the very least this video proves that the cops are liars about what they did, i.e., saying they asked him three times to put the gun down and he refused and/or went for the gun.

 

Here's what happened, and it's obvious - they pulled up, the kid stands up, the cop sees the gun, hops out of his car, fires, runs back to the other side of the car to hide. That's all plainly visible. No audio doesn't matter, it's impossible that they asked him to drop the weapon or put up his hands. He's firing essentially as the door is opening. There was no time to respond to the "order," if one was ever given.

Which is why rushing into the situation is the problem in the first place. It's going to raise everyone's tensions and get adrenaline pumping. It's going to trigger subconscious reactions instead of rational thinking. It's not going to allow anyone time to actually assess and react to a situation.

[StrangeSox]

Did they first pull up in that parking lot before spinning around and pulling up close? That's a long video, and at one point there is a car in that parking lot.

If they pulled into the parking lot first, that makes it even worse for them. That means they saw him sitting there (by himself, again, they lied) not really actually doing anything and then decided the best thing to do was to charge towards the kid in their car. Why not try to make contact with him through the PA while in the parking lot?

[Jenksismyhero]

Did they first pull up in that parking lot before spinning around and pulling up close? That's a long video, and at one point there is a car in that parking lot.

 

Someone in the comments seems to think the went into the parking lot a few minutes before the shooting. If so, why they didn't stay there and attempt to talk to the kid and assess the situation is beyond me.

[CrimsonWeltall]

How do you know they didn't mean to pull up 100 yards away, when they suddenly realized, holy crap, the guy we're looking for is right there in front of us?!

 

Because that makes absolutely no sense.

 

The kid was reported to be at the gazebo. He was at the gazebo. If they meant to pull up 100 yards from the gazebo, they would have. The guy was f***ing driving through the grass right to the spot where the kid was.

[StrangeSox]

Here's the overhead, it was in the Dem thread. Yellow lines are the camera FOV, blue box is the car. You can see that it wasn't exactly easy to drive to the gazebo the way they did.

 

[Y2HH]

Someone in the comments seems to think the went into the parking lot a few minutes before the shooting. If so, why they didn't stay there and attempt to talk to the kid and assess the situation is beyond me.

 

I didn't put much scrutiny into the video until you had me watch it a few more times now, there was a black car in about 2 frames of the video a few minutes prior to the police pulling up, but there isn't enough information know if it wasn't just some random black car, or if it was the same police car.

 

Still seems like poor information relay led to a bad situation. If I'm in that situation, I don't think my first reaction would be to pull right up like that, but I'm also not in that situation.

[Y2HH]

Here's the overhead, it was in the Dem thread. Yellow lines are the camera FOV, blue box is the car. You can see that it wasn't exactly easy to drive to the gazebo the way they did.

 

 

Keep in mind that that sat image is from summer, and they clearly pulled up in winter when there would be no trees/bushes in their way...that image makes it look like they drove through a forest, when odds are during that season there was only one tree in their way.

[StrangeSox]

Keep in mind that that sat image is from summer, and they clearly pulled up in winter when there would be no trees/bushes in their way...that image makes it look like they drove through a forest, when odds are during that season there was only one tree in their way.

Google Earth timeline, 4/2012. Blue line is my guess of how they drove around trees and bollards.

[Y2HH]

Google Earth timeline, 4/2012. Blue line is my guess of how they drove around trees and bollards.

 

That seems about right, but it begs the question, at least to me...why? What made them drive like that when they could have easily gotten out of the car in the parking lot? Doesn't that seem odd to you?

[StrangeSox]

That seems about right, but it begs the question, at least to me...why? What made them drive like that when they could have easily gotten out of the car in the parking lot? Doesn't that seem odd to you?

No. Some police act like they're part of a military occupation of a foreign country. Some either get in it for the authority or learn to love the authority once they're in the job.

 

The driver of the car has caused the department to pay out a $100,000 excessive force settlement in the past. The other cop was essentially fired from his last job for incompetence. The Cleveland PD as a whole was slammed in a DoJ report released yesterday in for excessive force, civil rights violations, and unnecessarily escalating situations.

[Y2HH]

No. Some police act like they're part of a military occupation of a foreign country. Some either get in it for the authority or learn to love the authority once they're in the job.

 

The driver of the car has caused the department to pay out a $100,000 excessive force settlement in the past. The other cop was essentially fired from his last job for incompetence. The Cleveland PD as a whole was slammed in a DoJ report released yesterday in for excessive force, civil rights violations, and unnecessarily escalating situations.

 

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with some of this, since I know a few cops of this "Rambo" nature, but you seem hellbent on witch hunting any/every cop at every chance you get, and make it appear as of this was common, when it's not.

[StrangeSox]

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with some of this, since I know a few cops of this "Rambo" nature, but you seem hellbent on witch hunting any/every cop at every chance you get, and make it appear as of this was common, when it's not.

I think that there are systemic problems with our police and justice systems, but I don't think I'm witch hunting every cop. Just the ones who kill unarmed civilians or otherwise use excessive force and often get away with it.

[Y2HH]

I think that there are systemic problems with our police and justice systems, but I don't think I'm witch hunting every cop. Just the ones who kill unarmed civilians or otherwise use excessive force and often get away with it.

 

And aren't you part of that system?