Ferguson Riots

[greg775]

I really do appreciate what you guys said about it being difficult to shoot a guy in the leg or in the hand. I guess I expect too much when life and death is on the line and if the officer thinks his life is in jeopardy obviously he wants to shoot to kill lest his wife be a widow and kids not have a dad.

 

Maybe they could work on it a bit at officer camp on running targets and tell the officers that not all situations are alike. Some situations are obviously not life threatening to the officer like this one.

 

This one is just so ridiculous. I'm glad he got charged with murder. Anybody know if he bailed out?

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I really do appreciate what you guys said about it being difficult to shoot a guy in the leg or in the hand. I guess I expect too much when life and death is on the line and if the officer thinks his life is in jeopardy obviously he wants to shoot to kill lest his wife be a widow and kids not have a dad.

 

Maybe they could work on it a bit at officer camp on running targets and tell the officers that not all situations are alike. Some situations are obviously not life threatening to the officer like this one.

 

This one is just so ridiculous. I'm glad he got charged with murder. Anybody know if he bailed out?

Seriously, forget this shoot-the-leg angle. First, in this case, it was just plain murder. Second, it isn't about training. All the training in the world won't make people that reliably accurate with a pistol in that scenario - you're trying to fit an elephant through the head of a pin. Third the courts see any shot as deadly force anyway, so no matter what, you can't shoot unless you are justified in that level of force.

[LDF]

I really do appreciate what you guys said about it being difficult to shoot a guy in the leg or in the hand. I guess I expect too much when life and death is on the line and if the officer thinks his life is in jeopardy obviously he wants to shoot to kill lest his wife be a widow and kids not have a dad.

 

Maybe they could work on it a bit at officer camp on running targets and tell the officers that not all situations are alike. Some situations are obviously not life threatening to the officer like this one.

 

This one is just so ridiculous. I'm glad he got charged with murder. Anybody know if he bailed out?

 

Greg, no offense intended.... i can see how you might be a non-violence kind of person, but this is also not a clint eastwood>dirty harry kind of movie.

 

the cops put their life on the line every time they go to work, the good one, need as much help in their performance of their job.

 

some idiot come out and threaten them with a weapon, the cops have a right to protect themselves. plain and simple.

 

peace.

[StrangeSox]

This is really f***ed up. A 73 year old "reserve" officer who's really an insurance exec who donates money to campaigns for the police is put on the Violent Crimes task force and ends up shooting a killing an unarmed man. Police departments let wealthy donors play cop and give them deadly weapons.

 

A single shot then rang out, after which someone could be heard saying, "I shot him. I'm sorry."

 

Harris reacted: "Oh s***, man, he shot me."

 

"You ran motherf***er, you hear me?" a deputy could be heard saying. "You f***ing ran. Shut the f*** up."

 

A few seconds later Harris told the deputies, "I'm losing my breath."

 

"f*** your breath," a deputy responded.

[LDF]

This is really f***ed up. A 73 year old "reserve" officer who's really an insurance exec who donates money to campaigns for the police is put on the Violent Crimes task force and ends up shooting a killing an unarmed man. Police departments let wealthy donors play cop and give them deadly weapons.

 

this is soooo freaking stupid that i can not even think of anything to say.

 

i mean not you SS but at stupidity being made every single day.

[NorthSideSox72]

This is really f***ed up. A 73 year old "reserve" officer who's really an insurance exec who donates money to campaigns for the police is put on the Violent Crimes task force and ends up shooting a killing an unarmed man. Police departments let wealthy donors play cop and give them deadly weapons.

I'd have to look up the rules for Oklahoma, but in the states I know of, even a reserve officer needs to be academy trained and state certified - not sure if that was the case here. Also, why on earth do you have relatively inexperienced reserves even be part of dealing with a friggin gun bust? That is just stupid.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I can believe there's an uproar over the cop that ran over the criminal. The criminal that robbed a store, set a house on fire, invaded a home, stole a car, and shot his assault rifle in the air on a public sidewalk, heading towards his work (I think).

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I can believe there's an uproar over the cop that ran over the criminal. The criminal that robbed a store, set a house on fire, invaded a home, stole a car, and shot his assault rifle in the air on a public sidewalk, heading towards his work (I think).

The technique was perhaps not well thought out, but yeah, I have a lot less concern about that than I do pretty much all the other shootings we've been discussing here. This guy was clearly an imminent lethal threat to the public who'd been evading officers and was currently armed and firing a weapon.

 

 

[illinilaw08]

The technique was perhaps not well thought out, but yeah, I have a lot less concern about that than I do pretty much all the other shootings we've been discussing here. This guy was clearly an imminent lethal threat to the public who'd been evading officers and was currently armed and firing a weapon.

 

Yeah, I just read through the CNN story on this incident, and, assuming the facts in the story are true, I don't have a huge issue with the way the officers handled things.

 

Generally speaking, I think people get outraged over police force stories because the officer in the moment gets to be judge, jury, and executioner while getting a much, much greater benefit of the doubt than the general population - which runs pretty contrary to the way criminal justice is supposed to work. In a scenario like this one, however, I have a hard time finding fault with the use of force.

 

 

[LDF]

Yeah, I just read through the CNN story on this incident, and, assuming the facts in the story are true, I don't have a huge issue with the way the officers handled things.

 

Generally speaking, I think people get outraged over police force stories because the officer in the moment gets to be judge, jury, and executioner while getting a much, much greater benefit of the doubt than the general population - which runs pretty contrary to the way criminal justice is supposed to work. In a scenario like this one, however, I have a hard time finding fault with the use of force.

 

i am glad for the bolded, and i am sure the police force in general appreciate it.

 

however, the main punching bag is always going to be the police force. this cynicism of the masses, that they are guilty until proven innocent.

 

however, does anyone really think about the job of the police, to put their life on the line every single day for those who criticize them. they are there front and center, in any situation, and yet, they are not appreciated, but are scorned and belittle.

Edited April 15, 2015 by LDF

[StrangeSox]

I'd have to look up the rules for Oklahoma, but in the states I know of, even a reserve officer needs to be academy trained and state certified - not sure if that was the case here. Also, why on earth do you have relatively inexperienced reserves even be part of dealing with a friggin gun bust? That is just stupid.

 

Apparently, supervisors were told to falsify training records.

 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/source...97b03c6c04.html

[LDF]

Apparently, supervisors were told to falsify training records.

 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/source...97b03c6c04.html

 

things just keep getting more stupid.... do they realize the whole world of appeals this just open up. maybe it is me, but i can see every lawyer filing an appeal for guilty criminals for possible falsifying records or evidence.

[NorthSideSox72]

Apparently, supervisors were told to falsify training records.

 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/source...97b03c6c04.html

Oops.

 

Also the reporters here seem to have missed a huge key question, unless I missed it. Forget for a moment specific training courses - is the guy even state-certified as a law enforcement officer? Was he before, is he currently? Is he academy-trained?

 

[Balta1701]

Oops.

 

Also the reporters here seem to have missed a huge key question, unless I missed it. Forget for a moment specific training courses - is the guy even state-certified as a law enforcement officer? Was he before, is he currently? Is he academy-trained?

Apparently if you have enough money to contribute in that state you're allowed to play law enforcement officer with minimal (no academy) training.

[StrangeSox]

FBI admits flaws in hair analysis over decades

 

Of 28 examiners with the FBI Laboratory’s microscopic hair comparison unit, 26 overstated forensic matches in ways that favored prosecutors in more than 95 percent of the 268 trials reviewed so far, according to the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL) and the Innocence Project, which are assisting the government with the country’s largest post-conviction review of questioned forensic evidence.

 

The cases include those of 32 defendants sentenced to death. Of those, 14 have been executed or died in prison, the groups said under an agreement with the government to release results after the review of the first 200 convictions.

[Balta1701]

Apparently, supervisors were told to falsify training records.

 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/source...97b03c6c04.html

Even better, assuming CBS isn't terribly sourced.

CBS News has learned that a 2009 investigation by the Tulsa Sheriff's Office concluded that there were concerns over Robert Bates behavior in the field. Bates, a 73-year-old reserve deputy, pleaded not guilty to second-degree manslaughter charges in the death of Eric Harris. Bates says he shot and killed Harris by mistake after pulling his gun instead of his taser.

 

Since the incident there have been allegations that Bates was not properly trained. CBS News learned that in 2009, the Tulsa Sheriff's Office launched an internal investigation to find out if Bates received special treatment during training and while working as a reserve deputy. They also investigated whether supervisors pressured training officers on Bates' behalf.

 

The investigation concluded Bates' training was questionable and that he was given preferential treatment.

 

The investigation found that deputies voiced concerns about Bates' behavior in the field, almost from the very beginning. Bates reportedly used his personal car while on duty and made unauthorized vehicle stops. When confronted Bates said that he could do what he wanted, and that anyone who had a problem with him should go see the sheriff.

 

The investigation concluded that high ranking officers created an atmosphere where employees were intimidated in order to violate department policy.

[cabiness42]

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/08/...=social_twitter

 

Wilson has twice been exonerated of criminal wrongdoing. In November, after a grand jury chose not to indict him, the prosecutor, Robert P. McCulloch, was widely accused of having been soft on him, in part because McCulloch’s father was a police officer who had been killed in a shootout with a black suspect. In March, the U.S. Department of Justice issued two official reports on Ferguson. One was a painstaking analysis of the shooting that weighed physical, ballistic, forensic, and crime-scene evidence, and statements from purported eyewitnesses. The report cleared Wilson of willfully violating Brown’s civil rights, and concluded that his use of force was defensible. It also contradicted many details that the media had reported about the incident, including that Brown had raised his hands in surrender and had been shot in the back. The evidence supported Wilson’s contention that Brown had been advancing toward him.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/08/...=social_twitter

 

Ha, I just read that. Good article. Pretty sad story all around.

 

I stumbled upon it via Gawker, which of course took the article as more proof that Wilson is racist. I don't see it, but you know, i'm an affluent white male so the presumption is that I too am a raging racist.

[caulfield12]

This sounded like racial code language. I pressed him: what did he mean by “a different culture”? Wilson struggled to respond. He said that he meant “pre-gang culture, where you are just running in the streets—not worried about working in the morning, just worried about your immediate gratification.” He added, “It is the same younger culture that is everywhere in the inner cities.”

 

The Justice Department found other examples of systemic racial bias in Ferguson. From 2012 to 2014, the Ferguson police issued four or more tickets to blacks on seventy-three occasions, and to whites only twice. Black drivers were more than twice as likely as others to be searched during vehicle stops, even though they were found to possess contraband twenty-six per cent less often. Some charges, like “manner of walking in roadway,” were brought against blacks almost exclusively.

[cabiness42]

Ha, I just read that. Good article. Pretty sad story all around.

 

I stumbled upon it via Gawker, which of course took the article as more proof that Wilson is racist. I don't see it, but you know, i'm an affluent white male so the presumption is that I too am a raging racist.

 

You know what, it doesn't matter a single bit how racist Wilson is. In that particular instance, forensics + reliable eyewitness testimony + existing laws = Wilson should not have been charged in that shooting.

 

The standard for justification of deadly force in self-defense does not change on a sliding scaled based on how racist the shooter is.

[southsider2k5]

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/08/...=social_twitter

 

Pretty much everything the media told us about this case was wrong. No hands up, no shots in the back.

[Jenksismyhero]

Pretty much everything the media told us about this case was wrong. No hands up, no shots in the back.

 

The damage is done though. They got their outrage, their riot, and the TV numbers.

[Balta1701]

The damage is done though. They got their outrage, their riot, and the TV numbers.

And a huge, wholesale reform of the police department following an intensive DOJ investigation which will benefit thousands of people in that city.

[cabiness42]

And a huge, wholesale reform of the police department following an intensive DOJ investigation which will benefit thousands of people in that city.

 

Except Darren Wilson. His life has been ruined due to all the lies.

[cabiness42]

Apparently the best way to mark the anniversary of a cop shooting somebody is shooting at the cops, thus forcing them to shoot you.

Edited August 10, 2015 by HickoryHuskers