Washington Football Franchise team name discussion

[StrangeSox]

Putting artificial barriers between yourself and another race, perfectly acceptable as an answer. Who cares they all are confined to reservations and were slaughtered by the millions... just don't call a football team "redskins".

 

This is the same logic that goes into book banning. Someone is offended by the contents of a book, well we can't have that, let's ban it! We can't have an honest discussion of the history and problems behind the topic? Nah, that would make someone uncomfortable. Let's keep the ignorance fully in place.

Explain how having an NFL team named the Washington R*dskins:

 

1) doesn't put barriers between American Indians and people who embrace or defend that use of the racial slur

2) somehow furthers the cause of the mistreatment of American Indians

3) lessens ignorance

 

And explain how not having an NFL team named with a racial slur:

 

1) builds artifical barriers

2) prevents anyone from caring about other AmerIndian issues

3) embraces ignorance

[southsider2k5]

using this logic, we should have a team called the Chicago N*****s because hey, otherwise we're hiding that s***ty, racist term away from the public view. And that's bad, for some reason.

 

edit: and also, for some reason, removing a racist team name means you can't address any other issues related to American Indians?

 

But no one does. I think honestly it is a way to assuage some white guilt, and that serves as a feel good substitute. But avoid the real issues, and let the problems simmer instead of doing something about the real problems.

 

And at the end of the day, some people are OK with being told what to think, what to say, and how to say. In fact we have entire movements around that now, so it is commonly accepted. Socially it is much easier to post a meme, just like we have seen in this thread multiple times, than to actually get down to the root of the problem. So that is what is done. Post a picture of a real Indian in the same picture as an idiot in an Indian outfit with a cute caption, and be done. Boy you've done 21st century social activism. Awesome. Now off to Starbucks.

[StrangeSox]

I'm still struggling to see anything in there that justifies continued usage of a racial slur or how it will somehow empower people who are the target of that slur.

[southsider2k5]

Explain how having an NFL team named the Washington R*dskins:

 

1) doesn't put barriers between American Indians and people who embrace or defend that use of the racial slur

2) somehow furthers the cause of the mistreatment of American Indians

3) lessens ignorance

 

And explain how not having an NFL team named with a racial slur:

 

1) builds artifical barriers

2) prevents anyone from caring about other AmerIndian issues

3) embraces ignorance

 

It is a cause du jour. It is way for someone to claim victory over someone else, and achieve literally nothing that makes the daily life of someone a better thing. Reframing this into something that can be won as an argument achieves even less. There is a greater problem that is being ignored in favor of winning a meme. Congrats, you win the meme.

[southsider2k5]

I'm still struggling to see anything in there that justifies continued usage of a racial slur or how it will somehow empower people who are the target of that slur.

 

I'm struggling to see what banning the use of a word does to achieve anything either.

[Chisoxfn]

It is a cause du jour. It is way for someone to claim victory over someone else, and achieve literally nothing that makes the daily life of someone a better thing. Reframing this into something that can be won as an argument achieves even less. There is a greater problem that is being ignored in favor of winning a meme. Congrats, you win the meme.

In other words...shouldn't we first try to fix the Native American situation vs. focus on the name of the football team. Or at least that is my interpretation of what you are saying.

[southsider2k5]

In other words...shouldn't we first try to fix the Native American situation vs. focus on the name of the football team. Or at least that is my interpretation of what you are saying.

 

Exactly. The name of a football team literally means nothing to the real victims here. Even when the name is changed, and people act like a victory has been won, nothing has been done for the actual victims here.

[StrangeSox]

It is a cause du jour. It is way for someone to claim victory over someone else, and achieve literally nothing that makes the daily life of someone a better thing. Reframing this into something that can be won as an argument achieves even less.

 

Who are you to say that an NFL team no longer using a racial slur would not improve anyone else's life?

 

There is a greater problem that is being ignored in favor of winning a meme. Congrats, you win the meme.

 

this is a false choice. there is nothing that says if you want the racial slur to stop being used, you can't/don't care about anything else. "meme" makes no sense in this context, either.

 

All you've said so far is that "there are more important things." That is obviously true, but that doesn't mean the less important things that are really trivially easy to do if literally one person would stop being a jackass (Snyder) can't or shouldn't be done as well. Noting that there are larger American Indian issues does not justify the continued use of a racial slur as the name of an NFL team.

[Balta1701]

In other words...shouldn't we first try to fix the Native American situation vs. focus on the name of the football team. Or at least that is my interpretation of what you are saying.

Like I said, he's giving a spectacular argument for very large reparations to that community. Serious education and health care benefits provided at state expense, along with a jobs program, etc, to make up for the damage done by decades of racist policies.

 

Of course, that would still leave the problem that we have an NFL team where referees refuse to work their games because their name is a racial slur. It's a much smaller problem than that of health care, education, job access amongst those communities, but it would be a problem even if we took major steps to make amends as a society.

[StrangeSox]

In other words...shouldn't we first try to fix the Native American situation vs. focus on the name of the football team. Or at least that is my interpretation of what you are saying.

"Fixing the Native American situation" is a pretty huge, complex problem. One piece of that problem is the continued use and defense of racial slurs targeted at that group, despite the requests of Native Americans. Changing the racist name of the team does not impede progress in other areas. If anything, the ongoing resistance to changing to something other than a racial slur means that attention has to be continually focused on that issue.

 

 

[bmags]

Exactly. The name of a football team literally means nothing to the real victims here.

I assume you are talking about the people who can't use a racial slur for their football teams.

[StrangeSox]

shorter version: while there is merit to the claim that people will get up in arms about the racial slur and, once that's finally and rightfully changed, go back to largely ignoring American Indian issues, that is not actually a justification for continuing to use the racial slur.

[Quin]

What about a team called the Blackfaces, cause they use eye black.

[Jenksismyhero]

Who are you to say that an NFL team no longer using a racial slur would not improve anyone else's life?

 

Who are you to say that it will?

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Who are you to say that an NFL team no longer using a racial slur would not improve anyone else's life?

 

 

 

this is a false choice. there is nothing that says if you want the racial slur to stop being used, you can't/don't care about anything else. "meme" makes no sense in this context, either.

 

All you've said so far is that "there are more important things." That is obviously true, but that doesn't mean the less important things that are really trivially easy to do if literally one person would stop being a jackass (Snyder) can't or shouldn't be done as well. Noting that there are larger American Indian issues does not justify the continued use of a racial slur as the name of an NFL team.

 

Except all reality shows that you are wrong. No one is doing a damned thing about the bigger problem, because no one cares to. The reality is much to complex for that, which is why the argument gets boiled down to OMGREDSKINS, instead of what the real problem is. It is why this entire thread is pointed at the nickname, instead of the real problem, when the reality is that the nickname doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things. But we have our meme that we can post! Look it is an Indian and a White guy in a headdress!

[StrangeSox]

Who are you to say that it will?

I'm not someone targeted by the slur, but there are people who are who want it changed. Why should we accept ss2k5's casual dismissal of their concerns as unimportant?

[StrangeSox]

Except all reality shows that you are wrong. No one is doing a damned thing about the bigger problem, because no one cares to. The reality is much to complex for that, which is why the argument gets boiled down to OMGREDSKINS, instead of what the real problem is. It is why this entire thread is pointed at the nickname, instead of the real problem, when the reality is that the nickname doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things. But we have our meme that we can post! Look it is an Indian and a White guy in a headdress!

great so when do we get to the part where the continued use of a racial slur for an NFL team name is anything but dumb and s***ty and an explanation of why it's okay to continue to use that racial slur?

[southsider2k5]

I'm not someone targeted by the slur, but there are people who are who want it changed. Why should we accept ss2k5's casual dismissal of their concerns as unimportant?

 

Everyone is targeted by slurs. Some society has given power to and those are bad, most are cute and funny, and are perfectly acceptable in both common usage and in most other forms.

 

Those we didn't give this mystical power to. Doesn't matter if someone dresses up as one of those stereotypes.

[Balta1701]

Everyone is targeted by slurs. Some society has given power to and those are bad, most are cute and funny, and are perfectly acceptable in both common usage and in most other forms.

 

Those we didn't give this mystical power to. Doesn't matter if someone dresses up as one of those stereotypes.

So you reject the notion that anyone should find a slur offensive, and yet for some reason I haven't seen you use them yourself. Why do you censor yourself? By your own standard you're weak and giving it that mystical power if you don't use the N-word in the next post of yours.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm not someone targeted by the slur, but there are people who are who want it changed. Why should we accept ss2k5's casual dismissal of their concerns as unimportant?

 

I don't think he's saying it's unimportant, but it's a typical white guilt solution to a much larger and more difficult problem. It's a pat-yourself-on-the-back-you've-done-a-good-job-social-activist type issue. OMG KATRINA WAS A TRAVESTY, DETROIT IS A MESS!, WHITE COP KILLERS! Yawn, ok i'm over that now. I've provided my faux-outrage and can feel good about it now, so, what's the next cause gang? Making fun of fat people?

 

Yes, i'm sure there are an incredibly small number of people who feel offended by the name because they think it's a direct slur against them. Even though we all know it's not. It's a name that might have been, but no longer is given its new meaning and context. But I ask again, out of 100 people, how many would associate the name with actual native americans versus a football team? That should be the real test here. You can't use Chicago N***** because it clearly doesn't have the same meaning or context. If the use of "n*****" went out of style 40-50 years ago, and we rarely, if ever, hear anyone use it as a slur today, and a professional league maintained that name throughout that time, then yeah, i'd say keep it.

[Chisoxfn]

"Fixing the Native American situation" is a pretty huge, complex problem. One piece of that problem is the continued use and defense of racial slurs targeted at that group, despite the requests of Native Americans. Changing the racist name of the team does not impede progress in other areas. If anything, the ongoing resistance to changing to something other than a racial slur means that attention has to be continually focused on that issue.

I'm not really following your 2nd point. I don't see how the ongoing resistance to changing the name has any impact on native Americans improving their lives. If you are suggesting, that a bunch of native americans are sitting around saying, we won't better ourselves until you take away the name, well then shame on the native americans for not taking things into their own power and well shame on you for making such a foolish statement. I won't get into any depth on fixing the problem as I don't pretend to know all the in's and out's of the problem, other then the various videos I watched back in high school when my school was thinking about changing its name (which it didn't and to my knowledge still hasn't).

 

We had multiple native americans come speak about it to our classes as well. Although focus was on some that thought the name was inappropriate and others who thought it wasn't. The name of our school was Warriors.

 

Note: And maybe the krux of the problem is everyone has been educated on the Redskin being a derogatory term instead of focusing on how to help native americans overcome the poverty and problems that those who live on the reservations face.

[Balta1701]

I'm not really following your 2nd point. I don't see how the ongoing resistance to changing the name has any impact on native Americans improving their lives. If you are suggesting, that a bunch of native americans are sitting around saying, we won't better ourselves until you take away the name, well then shame on the native americans for not taking things into their own power and well shame on you for making such a foolish statement. I won't get into any depth on fixing the problem as I don't pretend to know all the in's and out's of the problem, other then the various videos I watched back in high school when my school was thinking about changing its name (which it didn't and to my knowledge still hasn't).

 

We had multiple native americans come speak about it to our classes as well. Although focus was on some that thought the name was inappropriate and others who thought it wasn't. The name of our school was Warriors.

 

Note: And maybe the krux of the problem is everyone has been educated on the Redskin being a derogatory term instead of focusing on how to help native americans overcome the poverty and problems that those who live on the reservations face.

No one is bringing up their economic or personal conditions with regard to changing the name other than 2k5 who somehow thinks that doing so is an impediment the free fix for their lives that would materialize if we weren't having this discussion.

[NorthSideSox72]

This is being vastly over-complicated.

 

Redskin was, for a few hundred years, and still is, a racist insult. Just like "the N word". And, just like that word, the name was more flippantly and callously applied some time ago. So we have a football team with that name.

 

The people who are targets of it - as well as people who feel that they've gotten a pretty s***ty shaft already from this country - are offended. Lots of them. In fact from what I've read, just about every AmerInd person or leader that's been asked is offended.

 

To me, that is plenty enough to make a change. An insulting, racist name that offends most of a group? Change it.

 

Finally, as for the whole "PC Police" argument, that always cracks me up. What you are seeing here - people putting pressure on a business to make a positive change - is a great and quite American thing. It's cool to watch, and it symbolizes one of the positives of both capitalism and free speech.

 

I hope the name changes, and I think it will, probably pretty soon. Really at this point it's just the owner (who has been shown to be quite the model citizen) holding out, and I think he eventually caves to that economic pressure. That will be a good day.

 

[StrangeSox]

Everyone is targeted by slurs. Some society has given power to and those are bad, most are cute and funny, and are perfectly acceptable in both common usage and in most other forms.

 

Those we didn't give this mystical power to. Doesn't matter if someone dresses up as one of those stereotypes.

 

You don't get to decide whether a group targeted by a racial slur gets to find it "cute and funny" and whether or not it matters if they're subjected to racial slurs and stereotypes. Members of that group do.

 

So which argument are you actually making here? That there are more important issues, or that this isn't even a racial slur in the first place and there's no reason to change it?

[StrangeSox]

This is being vastly over-complicated.

 

Redskin was, for a few hundred years, and still is, a racist insult. Just like "the N word". And, just like that word, the name was more flippantly and callously applied some time ago. So we have a football team with that name.

 

The people who are targets of it - as well as people who feel that they've gotten a pretty s***ty shaft already from this country - are offended. Lots of them. In fact from what I've read, just about every AmerInd person or leader that's been asked is offended.

 

To me, that is plenty enough to make a change. An insulting, racist name that offends most of a group? Change it.

 

Finally, as for the whole "PC Police" argument, that always cracks me up. What you are seeing here - people putting pressure on a business to make a positive change - is a great and quite American thing. It's cool to watch, and it symbolizes one of the positives of both capitalism and free speech.

 

I hope the name changes, and I think it will, probably pretty soon. Really at this point it's just the owner (who has been shown to be quite the model citizen) holding out, and I think he eventually caves to that economic pressure. That will be a good day.

good post